I’m not saying you think that. I’m saying the opposite may be true.
When you are lean (and maybe dieted down), you increase your insulin sensitivity and your metabolism. Slow metabolism + improved insulin sensitivity logically makes a person primed for gains.
Grant it, I’m also someone who hates having to force feed myself to gain weight, but isn’t a slow metabolism a good thing for adding mass?
[/quote]
No a slow metabolism usually means more fat gain. Most bodybuilders would desire a fast metabolism so they could eat what they wanted.
As far as your comments about insulin sensitivity, one thing I hate lately is guys acting like they have this figured out…when I for one know they are doing this without blood tests but some generalized idea of these concepts.
Unless you were truly getting fat to the point of being OBESE and decreasing mobility, I would back off of spreading the false idea that simply being leaner somehow enhances insulin sensitivity. I have seen no evidence that someone is better in this area just because they are now “12%” instead of “15%”.
There are way more variables at play than this…the most important including your food choices.[/quote]
I said may on purpose. I didn’t claim to have it figured out.
But yes, there are many studies at least correlating leanness and insulin sensitivity. I don’t know that there are any on trained individuals, but someone at 20% bodyfat is probably going to be more insulin resistant than someone at 10%. What I posted isn’t an unreasonable hypothesis.
But specific mechanisms aside, in my experience adding quality mass has been easier when leaner. And I know Iâ??m not the only one.
These threads are either incredibly stupid or incredibly myopic.
Maiden keeps asking “Well, what if that guy lost 15lbs of fat and retained all the muscle???” First, some people place enough of a priority on the muscle that they don’t want to spare any for the fat loss. Retaining literally all the muscle is going to be tough sledding.
The more important thing, though, is that not everyone lives and dies by how they look. Some people want to be big and strong but have other responsibilities in life. Staying very lean requires a lot of commitment and consistency–if someone is, e.g., working 100 hour weeks, has kids to take care of, or is having to travel a lot or take clients out to meals, then they’re going to have a hard time doing this.
I feel like a lot of posters here don’t really realize how small a community “weightlifters” or “bodybuilders” really is. Realize that to the vast majority of people, builds ranging from Meadows to zraw are considered unattractive and even freakish.
And frankly, if someone like X went and lost 30 pounds even, he might notice but hardly anyone else would in clothes. Because people pay way less attention to this junk than I think the average TNationer realizes.
But yes, there are many studies at least correlating leanness and insulin sensitivity.[/quote]
Yes…and those studies are done on OBESE people.
[quote]
I don’t know that there are any on trained individuals, but someone at 20% bodyfat is probably going to be more insulin resistant than someone at 10%. What I posted isn’t an unreasonable hypothesis.[/quote]
20% is not obese and if someone is in the gym 5 to 6 days a week, I would NOT expect them to have some major problem with insulin sensitivity unless their diet was HORRIBLE.
[quote]
But specific mechanisms aside, in my experience adding quality mass has been easier when leaner. And I know Iâ??m not the only one.[/quote]
Easier? Your ability to gain muscle is related to your genetics, not your body fat level.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
So, does adding that much fat really help long term goals?
[/quote]
? I think you are missing the point. When I was close to 300, it didn’t have shit to do with me thinking the extra body fat was helping me gain more muscle. It had everything to do with me knowing that I would diet it off later and knowing I was still growing muscle…so I kept that up.
Why waste months dieting when my body is ready to grow?
Your body will NOT always be primed for growth. It goes through stages and cycles of growth and the guy who is standing there feeding his body when his body is ready to grow is the one who will make the most progress.
Period.
If that leads some guys to carrying more fat than desirable for a while, so be it. That is NOT their end goal and I am sure their thinking, IF THEY ARE TRULY SERIOUS, is along the same lines as what I wrote here now.
In between months 1 and 12 if I am seeing more strength in the gym and my arms are growing, and I choose not to diet down because of it, that may lead me to carrying more body fat than “ideal” that can be dieted off later.
AT NO POINT IN TIME WAS THE THOUGHT THAT CARRYING MORE FAT CAUSES MORE GROWTH.[/quote]
lol
But yes, there are many studies at least correlating leanness and insulin sensitivity.[/quote]
Yes…and those studies are done on OBESE people.
[/quote]
My recollection is that its a spectrum.[quote]
Not necessarily you, but a lot of the “full house” guys do have a horrible diet.[quote]
[quote]
But specific mechanisms aside, in my experience adding quality mass has been easier when leaner. And I know I�??�?�¢??m not the only one.[/quote]
Easier? Your ability to gain muscle is related to your genetics, not your body fat level.[/quote]
In general, most studies seem to be done on obese women who are middle aged…not young bodybuilders trying to get swole.
I have seen none related to someone’s insulins sensitivity at “12%” vs “18%”.
[quote]
Not necessarily you, but a lot of the “full house” guys do have a horrible diet.[/quote]
Which is why in medicine you don’t make broad statements without looking at the individual, but the reality is, we are talking about SERIOUS WEIGHT LUIFTERS…so their bad diet may be balanced by way above average gym commitment.
Once again, someone in the gym everyday can get away with more crap than the guy only in the gym off and on.
[quote]
That’s a, um… bold… statement.[/quote]
Not at all.
Your ability to gain muscle mass and the rate of gain is related to your genetics.
Unless your body fat is slowing you down as far as mobility to some degree thus decreasing fat loss, making the statement that you gain muscle “easier” when leaner just has no basis in science fact.
If you were obese before, then of course…but we aren’t talking about obese people here.
this is interesting, I always thought that the higher bodyfat = more insulin resistant was a fundamental truth of bodybuilding.
Didn’t realise that it only related to obese people.
Surely though, even if the studies done were on obese people, it must be on a scale with the two processes - becoming obese and developing insulin resistance - happening together. It’s not like you would become obese and then BAM you are insulin resistant without going through a transition from sensitivity to resistance. I would think the insulin resistance would have to come on gradually, just like the obesity, and it would happen at the same time.
I’m just thinking out loud here. Are there no studies that show insulin sensitivity getting worse as a person gets fatter?
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
this is interesting, I always thought that the higher bodyfat = more insulin resistant was a fundamental truth of bodybuilding.
Didn’t realise that it only related to obese people.
Surely though, even if the studies done were on obese people, it must be on a scale with the two processes - becoming obese and developing insulin resistance - happening together. It’s not like you would become obese and then BAM you are insulin resistant without going through a transition from sensitivity to resistance. I would think the insulin resistance would have to come on gradually, just like the obesity, and it would happen at the same time.
I’m just thinking out loud here. Are there no studies that show insulin sensitivity getting worse as a person gets fatter?[/quote]
Yes, there are, but they are generally done on obese people. Many trainers take this info and then relate it to anyone who gains body fat.
I have seen none, but if you can find a study that specifically shows a young lifter who trains daily and is HUGE who somehow has worse “insulin sensitivity” ONLY because he is a little fatter right now than last month, post it.
That is why some of us talk about “bro science”. There are tons of people simply willing to accept this as truth without any proof other than talk.
So I would see being “full house” as a temporary stage before you dieted off the fat. I would never rock that look permanently but I guess it just comes down to personal preference.
.[/quote]
That is honestly what the goal is for most of tehse guys and for me.
The point again, like the other poster made, is that long term it is most maintainable and allows more progress.
That is why I did it. Otherwise, there is no way I would be this size given the other responsibilities I have had.
Over the years, it was more enjoyable and allowed way more progress overall. That is why I did it and why many other people do it…because when you are really big, you don’t look bad with a little higher body fat.[/quote]
PX. If you don’t mind me asking what would you say is the ideal diet for the full house look. Better yet , what. You may eat and BF if you don’t mind me askin. I’m new here and see you have a lot of posts.
i think i am one of the few guys who was much more “fatter” as a young man than i am in my 40s,
as a young field throwing athlete and competitive PL and weightlifter, i was BIG, fat, and i dare say pretty darn athletic.
5’6" 260-270 lbs was about as full house as it gets. i had a huge gut, but i was big everywhere too.
i still am impressed with the hyooge guys, but now i am leaner and aspire to have a much more lean physique, and guys like Dave Tate, mark bell, ex big fat strong athletes who have trimmed up later in life for health and aesthetic reasons are my role models now.
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
this is interesting, I always thought that the higher bodyfat = more insulin resistant was a fundamental truth of bodybuilding.
Didn’t realise that it only related to obese people.
Surely though, even if the studies done were on obese people, it must be on a scale with the two processes - becoming obese and developing insulin resistance - happening together. It’s not like you would become obese and then BAM you are insulin resistant without going through a transition from sensitivity to resistance. I would think the insulin resistance would have to come on gradually, just like the obesity, and it would happen at the same time.
I’m just thinking out loud here. Are there no studies that show insulin sensitivity getting worse as a person gets fatter?[/quote]
Yes, there are, but they are generally done on obese people. Many trainers take this info and then relate it to anyone who gains body fat.
I have seen none, but if you can find a study that specifically shows a young lifter who trains daily and is HUGE who somehow has worse “insulin sensitivity” ONLY because he is a little fatter right now than last month, post it.
That is why some of us talk about “bro science”. There are tons of people simply willing to accept this as truth without any proof other than talk.[/quote]
That is the difficult thing about the iron game. Little research has been done and a lot of advice given is “broscience” because it usually has some scientific merit to it. At least in theory. With the fitness industry growing, I bet we will see a lot more advances in the science behind building a better body.
Full house… this Fucking term again. Anyway, I would always be impressed with a big beastly offseason bastards with moderate fat gains than a scrawny physique guy ( yeah I said it). My theory is, some people become monsters, and some are not inclined to become a big muscular monstrosity hence, men’s physique class (btw Wtf is women’s physique?).
Some people put in work, gain muscle with a little fat and water, and some stay consistently the same Fucking size! You can’t expect to make mo gainzzzzz, without a little fat i.e., offseason. Some people gain muscle, and some do 5 hours of cardio, 10 days a week abs, polymetrics and don board shorts. Shrugs
