You lost the mirror and photos as a means of assessing progress once you bulked beyond any sign of muscle definition. That is going too far imho and when I did it, I was so disgusted at how I looked that it instigated panic cutting that meant I did lose a lot of strength getting back to something comfortable.
One dieting mind-game factor that hasn’t been mentioned is that you will be pretty flat\depleted after that long at low cals and carbs. A period of maintenance or a carb-up will improve how you look.
I personally would never diet without regular skiploads again.
As others have mentioned…do traditional steady state. This form of cardio will utilize fatty acids for fuel as a preference over glycogen stores…which higher energy work tends to do. Which fuel source would be more beneficial for you to burn right now?
Fatloss stalls, just as muscle gain stalls…I think muscle gain tends to halt faster or move in humps more so…but they both share this truth. It’s not linear. Others have also suggested to switch things up in terms of nutrition, exercise etc. Normally…I don’t think hormone manipulation is that important…but when your abs are starting to show and you can’t break through past that level…maybe it is more important and carb control can become useful…as opposed to just calorie control. So…perhaps cycle carbs and try cycling calories as well. This seems extreme, but for me before, I was at a consistent 1800kcal and was stalled. I switched to an entirely different schedule of eating and I began to cycle my carbs/cals as well…my body has started to change again. I don’t do medium days…simply, high and low. High days (training): 2400kcal. High Carb, Moderate Protein, Low Fat. Low Days (non-training/just cardio): 1600kcall: High Protein, Moderate Fat, Low Carb. This seems like quite a jump in cals from day to day…but it’s working for me right now as more of a slow recomp as opposed to a full out cut, which I was doing before.
I can see that you are dealing with stubborn fat stores in certain areas. This is also a non problem for the most part at the early stages of a cut. Once you start to develop some level of relative leanness…you notice certain areas tend to stick while other areas continue to get lean. This can be because those areas that stick have a higher sensitivity to insulin and as a double whammy…probably have a higher indication of alpha2 receptors. Again…I’m going to recommend lower-moderate intensity steady state cardio. FASTED. In the morning, before you eat…And if I’m going to add to this…Drink a black cup of coffee and take yohimbine hcl about 30mins prior. Again fasted…you want insulin as low as possible…any jump in insulin (i.e. putting sugar or cream in your coffee) can and probably will blunt the effects of yohimbine. I’ll make the claim that most who downplay the effectiveness of yohimbine are probably blunting it’s effects by eating after taking it or while taking it etc. Once you do the cardio though …you obviously can eat your breakfast after.
In terms of muscle loss from fasted morning cardio…I don’t buy into that shit at all. That’s me though and I could be wrong. But, I have my reasons…and my research…and it just doesn’t point to OMG MY MUSCLEZ ARE WASTING! These are my suggestions for you right now…Hope all works out.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I don’t think I’ve ever even seen 2200 cals on a precontest diet!
IMO you’ve tanked your metabolism. Back off a bit, and then reassess your approach. I think you’ve pushed too hard, too fast, and for too long.
S[/quote]
Seriously? I know plenty of big guys who go that low. This guy John on another board is ~250 at 10-12% body fat and he rarely goes about 3500 on the off season, cuts around 2200-2300.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I don’t think I’ve ever even seen 2200 cals on a precontest diet!
IMO you’ve tanked your metabolism. Back off a bit, and then reassess your approach. I think you’ve pushed too hard, too fast, and for too long.
S[/quote]
Seriously? I know plenty of big guys who go that low. This guy John on another board is ~250 at 10-12% body fat and he rarely goes about 3500 on the off season, cuts around 2200-2300. [/quote]
Correct. A lot of people just completely overestimate how much they need to eat…most likely because they just like eating. I eat 1600-1800kcal on most all non-training days…and I tend to do morning fasted cardio those days. I consume approx. 2400kcal on training days…I don’t see muscle wasting away… In fact, my scale weight has been climbing in the past weeks.
In addition to what the guys have already said: you seem to be bottom-heavy, you’re carrying disproportionally more muscle in your lower body. Judging from your upper body alone, I’d have you at least 15 lbs lighter, if not even 20 lbs.
And get rid of that lava lamp, already.
[/quote]
lol thx for the suggestions, upped carbs on workout days…throwing in 90g of carbs from brown rice pre workout, moved my fruit to post workout. So I’ll be @ 200g carbs net on training days, and the morning workouts won’t be intense explosive cardio anymore, it’ll be inclined steady state. Let’s see how this works for a couple weeks!
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I don’t think I’ve ever even seen 2200 cals on a precontest diet!
IMO you’ve tanked your metabolism. Back off a bit, and then reassess your approach. I think you’ve pushed too hard, too fast, and for too long.
S[/quote]
Seriously? I know plenty of big guys who go that low. This guy John on another board is ~250 at 10-12% body fat and he rarely goes about 3500 on the off season, cuts around 2200-2300. [/quote]
Correct. A lot of people just completely overestimate how much they need to eat…most likely because they just like eating. I eat 1600-1800kcal on most all non-training days…and I tend to do morning fasted cardio those days. I consume approx. 2400kcal on training days…I don’t see muscle wasting away… In fact, my scale weight has been climbing in the past weeks.[/quote]
Yea Modok recently said he gets as low as 1800 calories with up to an hour of cardio per day near the end of his diet and he’s huge.
Stu who have you been talking to lol…I don’t think everyone can be so lucky to eat that much when getting really lean.
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
One dieting mind-game factor that hasn’t been mentioned is that you will be pretty flat\depleted after that long at low cals and carbs. A period of maintenance or a carb-up will improve how you look.
I personally would never diet without regular skiploads again
[/quote]
This is quite possibly the most important post in this thread.
[quote]Kvetch wrote:
One dieting mind-game factor that hasn’t been mentioned is that you will be pretty flat\depleted after that long at low cals and carbs. A period of maintenance or a carb-up will improve how you look.
I personally would never diet without regular skiploads again
[/quote]
This is quite possibly the most important post in this thread.[/quote]
They’re certainly a mindfuck though.
I have to say I don’t know many naturals who use them to get really lean…
Dudes…that rice pre workout sits in my stomach like a little lead canon ball. I’m not even eating it within a 1/2 hour of working out. Hell, even post workout I still feel full. Good stuff…
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I don’t think I’ve ever even seen 2200 cals on a precontest diet!
IMO you’ve tanked your metabolism. Back off a bit, and then reassess your approach. I think you’ve pushed too hard, too fast, and for too long.
S[/quote]
Seriously? I know plenty of big guys who go that low. This guy John on another board is ~250 at 10-12% body fat and he rarely goes about 3500 on the off season, cuts around 2200-2300. [/quote]
Correct. A lot of people just completely overestimate how much they need to eat…most likely because they just like eating. I eat 1600-1800kcal on most all non-training days…and I tend to do morning fasted cardio those days. I consume approx. 2400kcal on training days…I don’t see muscle wasting away… In fact, my scale weight has been climbing in the past weeks.[/quote]
Yea Modok recently said he gets as low as 1800 calories with up to an hour of cardio per day near the end of his diet and he’s huge.
Stu who have you been talking to lol…I don’t think everyone can be so lucky to eat that much when getting really lean. [/quote]
I’m with Stu here…I don’t get in stage shape, but I get leaner than most. I never go below 2,800 on a non-training day or 3,200 on a training day-NEVER. Yes…I do like to eat! Most lifters completely under-estimate how much they can eat and still remain hard and lean. There are many approaches and I’m not knocking what a lifter has to do to get to the finish line, it’s about the end result. ‘Know thyself’ IMO…the goal should be to eat the maximum amount while still progressing toward the goal at the desired pace.
A detail that no one mentioned. You seemed to go higher reps, during your cut? Why would you not keep training the way that you build the muscles, when “keeping them”?
If you really have trouble with dieting (seems like it’s not the first time) then spend the money and hire a nutrition coach. For the whole cycle (gain, maintaining and cut). I don’t know where you started before gaining, but I don’t think the muscle gained, justifies the high(er) fat-gain. I’m not talking from an aesthetically point of view (couldn’t care less) but merely from a time perspective. You end up gaining so much fat that you have to diet for too long, ending up with what everyone in here is talking about (fucked metabolism etc.). Plus it’s a bitch to diet non-stop.
It’s money well spend on a nutrition coach for lessons for the rest of your life (and awesome results).
[quote]Hoejer wrote:
Lot’s of really good advice in here.
A detail that no one mentioned. You seemed to go higher reps, during your cut? Why would you not keep training the way that you build the muscles, when “keeping them”?
If you really have trouble with dieting (seems like it’s not the first time) then spend the money and hire a nutrition coach. For the whole cycle (gain, maintaining and cut). I don’t know where you started before gaining, but I don’t think the muscle gained, justifies the high(er) fat-gain. I’m not talking from an aesthetically point of view (couldn’t care less) but merely from a time perspective. You end up gaining so much fat that you have to diet for too long, ending up with what everyone in here is talking about (fucked metabolism etc.). Plus it’s a bitch to diet non-stop.
It’s money well spend on a nutrition coach for lessons for the rest of your life (and awesome results). [/quote]
I actually switched up my training by coincidence at this time. I do a heavy/light upper/lower split pretty much year round. Just happens that on my two heavy days (when I do flat bench, and deadlifting) I wanted to see how high I could get my 10 rep max. In retrospect probably could’ve waited til next bulk, but Friday I go for 400*10 on deadlifting so if I get that, it’ll be back to low reps there.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I don’t think I’ve ever even seen 2200 cals on a precontest diet!
IMO you’ve tanked your metabolism. Back off a bit, and then reassess your approach. I think you’ve pushed too hard, too fast, and for too long.
S[/quote]
Seriously? I know plenty of big guys who go that low. This guy John on another board is ~250 at 10-12% body fat and he rarely goes about 3500 on the off season, cuts around 2200-2300. [/quote]
Correct. A lot of people just completely overestimate how much they need to eat…most likely because they just like eating. I eat 1600-1800kcal on most all non-training days…and I tend to do morning fasted cardio those days. I consume approx. 2400kcal on training days…I don’t see muscle wasting away… In fact, my scale weight has been climbing in the past weeks.[/quote]
Yea Modok recently said he gets as low as 1800 calories with up to an hour of cardio per day near the end of his diet and he’s huge.
Stu who have you been talking to lol…I don’t think everyone can be so lucky to eat that much when getting really lean. [/quote]
I’m with Stu here…I don’t get in stage shape, but I get leaner than most. I never go below 2,800 on a non-training day or 3,200 on a training day-NEVER. Yes…I do like to eat! Most lifters completely under-estimate how much they can eat and still remain hard and lean. There are many approaches and I’m not knocking what a lifter has to do to get to the finish line, it’s about the end result. ‘Know thyself’ IMO…the goal should be to eat the maximum amount while still progressing toward the goal at the desired pace.
[/quote]
Could be but just like I’ve heard many people say “people underestimate how much they can eat and get lean” I’ve heard just as many say “people really overestimate how much they need to eat”. Some big guys I know never go over 3000 for bulking up. It really just seems individual. I know personally to lose weight I need to be sub 2000-2200 after the first couple of weeks and/or do a shit ton of cardio or else the weight just won’t drop. To bulk it depends if I’m incorporating cheat days or not but the average usually isn’t above 3000. Believe me though, I’d love to eat a lot more.
So I added in 4 oz. of brown rice as a pre-workout meal about 45 minutes to an hour before I work out. I notice I have more energy and more ‘pop’ in my workouts now. I switched the fruit I usually had before to post-workout (an apple & a banana) and then down my usual chicken/broccoli dinner. I’m at 2531 calories, 231 carbs, 37 fiber. So I’m around 200 net carbs for my training days which is actually double what I was getting before. I cut out the intense a.m. conditioning and swapped in incline walking on a treadmill, fasted.
I noticed yesterday I looked much leaner through my torso, and my chest actually looked thicker & denser, so I weighed myself first thing in the a.m. after going to the bathroom…200 lbs! It’s not just my imagination either; there’s a semi-pro bb’er at my gym who I talk to frequently, he noticed I look much more cut over the last few weeks, and that I’m looking ‘fuller’. I’m assuming it’s glycogen in the muscles. I’m actually happy with how this is going, so I may not reduce the carbs in a week or so as I had initially planned to do once I was out of the rut.
[quote]AccipiterQ wrote:
Just wanted to post a quick update!
So I added in 4 oz. of brown rice as a pre-workout meal about 45 minutes to an hour before I work out. I notice I have more energy and more ‘pop’ in my workouts now. I switched the fruit I usually had before to post-workout (an apple & a banana) and then down my usual chicken/broccoli dinner. I’m at 2531 calories, 231 carbs, 37 fiber. So I’m around 200 net carbs for my training days which is actually double what I was getting before. I cut out the intense a.m. conditioning and swapped in incline walking on a treadmill, fasted.
I noticed yesterday I looked much leaner through my torso, and my chest actually looked thicker & denser, so I weighed myself first thing in the a.m. after going to the bathroom…200 lbs! It’s not just my imagination either; there’s a semi-pro bb’er at my gym who I talk to frequently, he noticed I look much more cut over the last few weeks, and that I’m looking ‘fuller’. I’m assuming it’s glycogen in the muscles. I’m actually happy with how this is going, so I may not reduce the carbs in a week or so as I had initially planned to do once I was out of the rut.
Thanks again guys & gals![/quote]
I have noticed that in my last few cuts when I am finished I continue to lose fat even after adding more carbs back in and decreasing cardio, usually for a few weeks. Lyle Mcdonald calls in the Long Term Delayed Fat Loss Effect (LTDFLE). It will be interesting to see how your results are in a couple of weeks and whether that is what is occurring here.
If you are in fact dieting are you using a carb load or a refuel or whatever name you want to call it? Examples every third or fourth day add a ton of carbs (low glycemic) as a last meal of the day. IE I would eat while dieting for competition every 4th day 7th meal Half a box of cheerios (or oatmeal), whole sweet potato,and a banana. Basically resets your metabolism… or throws it off. Every time i did this the next few days i lost weight but i was also on a pretty carb deficient diet. Also why so much weight when you bulk? In my opinion I try to stay below 12-14%BF when bulking. And unlike many on here I like to drop to 7-8% at least for a few months every year… It seems to me that every time I bulk back up I gain strength and size. I have been doing this yo-yo for 10 years and gained over 25 lbs of lean muscle through that time… I competed at 164 8 years ago at roughly 4%. My current weight is 220 at 9-10% and I expect to weigh in at 190 for a show in March. I will be gaining back to 230 and then cut starting in end of December. Also I dont recommend high reps when dieting or tons of cardio… I like to try and conserve as much muscle as possible so heavy weights and reps and let the diet do the work not the cardio… Just my 2 cents.
[quote]Swolle wrote:
If you are in fact dieting are you using a carb load or a refuel or whatever name you want to call it? Examples every third or fourth day add a ton of carbs (low glycemic) as a last meal of the day. IE I would eat while dieting for competition every 4th day 7th meal Half a box of cheerios (or oatmeal), whole sweet potato,and a banana. Basically resets your metabolism… or throws it off. Every time i did this the next few days i lost weight but i was also on a pretty carb deficient diet. Also why so much weight when you bulk? In my opinion I try to stay below 12-14%BF when bulking. And unlike many on here I like to drop to 7-8% at least for a few months every year… It seems to me that every time I bulk back up I gain strength and size. I have been doing this yo-yo for 10 years and gained over 25 lbs of lean muscle through that time… I competed at 164 8 years ago at roughly 4%. My current weight is 220 at 9-10% and I expect to weigh in at 190 for a show in March. I will be gaining back to 230 and then cut starting in end of December. Also I dont recommend high reps when dieting or tons of cardio… I like to try and conserve as much muscle as possible so heavy weights and reps and let the diet do the work not the cardio… Just my 2 cents. [/quote]
This is exactly what I’ve been thinking of doing soon and have done in the past, but damn my body is stubborn as hell. I went on vacation for a week, its been 5 weeks and I’m just barely getting back to where I was before that week. The weird/annoying this is almost all of my fat loss was in the first 8 weeks (going on 16 weeks now), since then it’s been a frustrating process.
Out of curiosity how much cardio do you tend to do and what is your natural body type? I’ve been doing 1 cheat day per week (8 hours) followed by a fast day (just 200 calories from cottage cheese) but am considering switching this to 2 high carb days (saturday and wednesay) of 400g each. Have you done the 1 day per week large carb load/skipload/cheat day?
My cardio is at roughly 30min per day as of now but I think for these last couple of weeks of cutting that will have to go up a lot which, being low intensity, hopefully won’t screw me over in the gym.