Four Principles

Headhunter · February 10, 2006, 1:41pm

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am taking a sociology course this year and generally am having a lot of thoughts about the interactions of people.

The second principle is humility. We are not that important. Our countries are not that important. Our regligions are not that important. Our beliefs are not that important. We should strive not to place so much importance on ourselves and our beliefs that we find it easy to justify violation of the principle of respect towards others.[/quote]

If each part of existence is ‘not that important’, then how can the whole thing be important? This is one of those ‘crock-o’-shit’ courses they make people take so some incompetent clown doesn’t have to make a real living.

Get your money back from this bullshit and go take some math, science, or philosophy course (esp Aristotle). You’re being fucked.

Headhunter · February 10, 2006, 1:44pm

[quote]Diomede wrote:
and what do we do when these four principles contradict each other?

For instance. You say we should respect others. I assume you will take this to other cultures.

Now, Western Culture tells us that we are all equal. Many non western cultures don’t believe this.

Should we be humble and respect the other cultures and respect their cultures, or do we say fuck humility and tell them they need to treat women better/minorities better?

It’s nice in theory… However, i dont think we should ever compromise in believing that western culture is superior to other cultures. Now before ya all jump down my throat, i’m not talking about britney spears, mcdonalds or that type of crap culture…i’m talking about equality, liberty, freedom, democracy, etc…why should we be humble in asserting that our culture can be the only path for the future…we cant accept tyranny, dictatorships or whatever.[/quote]

Very well said!

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · February 10, 2006, 3:05pm

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am taking a sociology course this year and generally am having a lot of thoughts about the interactions of people.

I’m trying to come up with something simple and fairly self-evident that most people would accept as a set of guidelines or principles.

While other people may focus on other issues, I’ve chosen four:

Respect.
Humility.
Wisdom.
Strength.
.
.
.

Anyway, as well as your thoughts on the concept in general, I am trying to develop these thoughts. Can they be simplified? Can they be stated in a way that makes them even more self-evident? Do they preclude any current national or religious doctrine, such that conflict is required?
[/quote]
Very well thought out! I agree with you about respect and somewhat on humility. Though I view humility as an important value it is not a value that as widly accepted as respect. This site for instance in the exact antithesis of humility. It’s main theme is: “I am man and you must notice me.” That is not being humble at all in my opinion.

Respect is the foundation of many philosophical principles–for one, the “golden rule” is perhaps the oldest and most followed principle however it is defined across the many cultures that practice it. This can arguably be called a “Universal Truth”. Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself in the same exact situation.

I am skeptical about wisdom or strength because they are not tangible attributes. Though, I can tell wisdom and strength when I witness it, it is not as easily understood.

I believe that wisdom is a direct paradox to humility. How can one practice wisdom humbly if we are not to take ourselves too seriously. Though I agree I can be humble about my own knowledge as I understand it.

Valuing strength, though profound, when I first thought about it made me think of history and all the “strong” leaders who did not practice humility or respect.

I in no way think that one cannot practice these principles together; however, I feel that the latter two principles are diametrically opposed to the former.

Wow, interesting topic. Thanks for distracting me at work once again.

ZEB · February 10, 2006, 3:48pm

I’ll thank you to keep that one in mind when we are in the middle of a hot debate sir!

vroom · February 10, 2006, 4:12pm

[quote]If each part of existence is ‘not that important’, then how can the whole thing be important? This is one of those ‘crock-o’-shit’ courses they make people take so some incompetent clown doesn’t have to make a real living.

Get your money back from this bullshit and go take some math, science, or philosophy course (esp Aristotle). You’re being fucked.[/quote]

LOL.

This has nothing to do with my course other than the fact the course discusses a lot of historical theories or ideologies of society – and how they have fallen short (e.g. Weber, Durkheim, Marx, others I can’t remember).

While they discuss those issues, I think about what I feel are the underlying issues of humanity and civiliations.

Anyway, the idea that some things aren’t so important is easy to realize if you consider people important, and place the existence of good people above artificial little divisions that keep us separate and at odds with each other.

Competition is good, but when good people are involved, enmity not so much. The world is much smaller than it used to be, we need to learn to live together, because there really isn’t much space left for the malcontents to claim as their own.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · February 10, 2006, 4:36pm

[quote]vroom wrote:
The world is much smaller than it used to be, we need to learn to live together, because there really isn’t much space left for the malcontents to claim as their own.
[/quote]
This is where respect and humility will do us well.

alstan90 · February 10, 2006, 5:04pm

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am taking a sociology course this year and generally am having a lot of thoughts about the interactions of people.

I’m trying to come up with something simple and fairly self-evident that most people would accept as a set of guidelines or principles.

While other people may focus on other issues, I’ve chosen four:

Respect.
Humility.
Wisdom.
Strength.

The first principle is respect. Everything in this universe should be treated with respect. Even enemies can be treated with respect. People of different sexes, races and religions can be treated with respect. Though we should always treat others with respect, we must also be able to deal with the fact that we will not always be shown respect by others.

The second principle is humility. We are not that important. Our countries are not that important. Our regligions are not that important. Our beliefs are not that important. We should strive not to place so much importance on ourselves and our beliefs that we find it easy to justify violation of the principle of respect towards others.

The third principle is wisdom. We should strive to learn and to think clearly about the issues around us. Part of our uniqueness in the universe is our ability to develop knowledge. We should value knowledge and wisdom and strive to increase these attributes in ourselves over our lifetime. This is the proper way to show respect for this gift.

The fourth and final principle is strength. The mental aspect of humanity is not the only aspect. We are physical creatures and we must also embrace this. We should maintain personal strength and conditioning in order to ensure the ability to defend ourselves from external threats, in essence, to survive.

I believe the concept of respect is enough to develop laws that reflect the same ideals espoused by modern society.

I think that humility could remind us all to be respectful, such that we could avoid unnecessary conflict.

Wisdom and strength reflect our rational thinking existence and our physical existence. To develop principles of living it would make sense to celebrate all aspects of life that we have been given.

Anyway, as well as your thoughts on the concept in general, I am trying to develop these thoughts. Can they be simplified? Can they be stated in a way that makes them even more self-evident? Do they preclude any current national or religious doctrine, such that conflict is required?[/quote]

You say on the fucking thread above this that as a way of detering terrorists we should kill their families in the event of an attack and or desecrate their holy places of worship as a deterant to them in future. And then you talk about humility and how everything should be treated with respect in this thread. Bollocks my friend.

PantyPeePunch · February 10, 2006, 5:30pm

If there was one thing that every person in this world could agree on don’t you think it should be the most important and protected thing in our lives? I think that the way a person dealt with that one undeniably agreed on thing would reflect the respect, wisdom, humility and strength of that person?

The only thing that everyone in this world can agree on by default is disagreement.

vroom · February 10, 2006, 5:32pm

Humor and sarcasm. There might be a place on the list for requiring people to recognize these things…

However, perhaps you’d better figure out who the guilty party is on that thread… before you go throwing accusations where they don’t belong.

pittbulll · February 10, 2006, 5:33pm

[quote]haney wrote:
vroom wrote:
I am taking a sociology course this year and generally am having a lot of thoughts about the interactions of people.

I’m trying to come up with something simple and fairly self-evident that most people would accept as a set of guidelines or principles.

While other people may focus on other issues, I’ve chosen four:

Respect.
Humility.
Wisdom.
Strength.

The first principle is respect. Everything in this universe should be treated with respect. Even enemies can be treated with respect. People of different sexes, races and religions can be treated with respect. Though we should always treat others with respect, we must also be able to deal with the fact that we will not always be shown respect by others.

The second principle is humility. We are not that important. Our countries are not that important. Our regligions are not that important. Our beliefs are not that important. We should strive not to place so much importance on ourselves and our beliefs that we find it easy to justify violation of the principle of respect towards others.

The third principle is wisdom. We should strive to learn and to think clearly about the issues around us. Part of our uniqueness in the universe is our ability to develop knowledge. We should value knowledge and wisdom and strive to increase these attributes in ourselves over our lifetime. This is the proper way to show respect for this gift.

The fourth and final principle is strength. The mental aspect of humanity is not the only aspect. We are physical creatures and we must also embrace this. We should maintain personal strength and conditioning in order to ensure the ability to defend ourselves from external threats, in essence, to survive.

I believe the concept of respect is enough to develop laws that reflect the same ideals espoused by modern society.

I think that humility could remind us all to be respectful, such that we could avoid unnecessary conflict.

Wisdom and strength reflect our rational thinking existence and our physical existence. To develop principles of living it would make sense to celebrate all aspects of life that we have been given.

Anyway, as well as your thoughts on the concept in general, I am trying to develop these thoughts. Can they be simplified? Can they be stated in a way that makes them even more self-evident? Do they preclude any current national or religious doctrine, such that conflict is required?

What happens when someone doesn’t follow the guidelines? What reaction should we have towards the person who does not fall inline with the priniciples?

[/quote]

I would agree. Organized religion should be encouraging the same four principals. I think that is one of my problems with organized religion.

PantyPeePunch · February 10, 2006, 6:01pm

“You say on the fucking thread above this that as a way of detering terrorists we should kill their families in the event of an attack”

That was me you shmuck.

Magarhe · February 10, 2006, 9:16pm

Respect is not the same thing as admiration.

Some people say “you must earn respect” - I think they mean, you must earn admiration.

I think respect should be given, not earned. But that doesn’t mean you have to admire what the person is doing or how they are.

Headhunter · February 11, 2006, 10:08am

Vroom,

Until you obtain a core philosophy, none of what you are studying will make much sense. Like the hippies of the 1960’s, you’ll simply drift along, and since you won’t have a core philosophy, you’ll react by simply saying that anyone WITH a core philosophy is wrong.

Since they have one and you don’t, you’re subconscious will tell you that they must be wrong, evil, right-wing nuts, or whatever. But: a stream of left-wing platitudes is NOT a philosophy. An absence of core beliefs is not a philosophy.

This is one reason the Left hates the Right. “How can you be so sure you’re right? No one is right, nothing is very serious, we’re all just drifting shmoos, let’s try to be nice.” Do you see how empty that is? THE LEFT DOESN’T ATTACK THE RIGHT BECAUSE OF THEIR IDEAS. ITS BECAUSE THE LEFT HAS NO IDEAS!

Notice how the Libs attack if someone says “Western culture is superior.” One guy on here even attacked me for condemning the Hindu practice of wife-burning. “Its a cultural difference! Who are you to judge?” he shreiked.

Until you have some core beliefs, you are susceptible to the mush that that prof is trying to stuff in your brain. Like I said before, know it or not, you are being fucked.

alstan90 · February 11, 2006, 10:26am

[quote]PantyPeePunch wrote:
“You say on the fucking thread above this that as a way of detering terrorists we should kill their families in the event of an attack”

That was me you shmuck. [/quote]

Yeh well, vroom agreed with you, as good as saying it.

It just makes me so mad when people make comments like that; my brother, well half-brother biologically, has an Iranian dad, and he has had to suffer shit all his life and discrimination because he looks like a Muslim. SO that attitude doesn’t wash with me.

vroom · February 11, 2006, 11:17am

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Until you obtain a core philosophy, none of what you are studying will make much sense. Like the hippies of the 1960’s, you’ll simply drift along, and since you won’t have a core philosophy, you’ll react by simply saying that anyone WITH a core philosophy is wrong.

Since they have one and you don’t, you’re subconscious will tell you that they must be wrong, evil, right-wing nuts, or whatever. But: a stream of left-wing platitudes is NOT a philosophy. An absence of core beliefs is not a philosophy.[/quote]

You are such a tool. If you haven’t figured it out, my core beliefs are in the liberal/libertarian zone. However, I disagree that any one core belief holds all of the answers. That is the height of foolishness.

What are you smoking? There are different philosophies than yours in the world. It’s all very easy to spend your life like a school-boy, with the rah rah attitude about everything around you.

[quote]Notice how the Libs attack if someone says “Western culture is superior.” One guy on here even attacked me for condemning the Hindu practice of wife-burning. “Its a cultural difference! Who are you to judge?” he shreiked.

Until you have some core beliefs, you are susceptible to the mush that that prof is trying to stuff in your brain. Like I said before, know it or not, you are being fucked.[/quote]

OMG. You are such an idiot. First, and most importantly, I have a good prof in this course, who is not actually trying to stuff anything in anyones brain. He’s doing a good job of bringing up issues and teaching people to think about them.

Second, spare me the anectdotal evidence that you have somehow misconstrued as a respresentation of your perverse classification of the left.

Third, the fact that you aren’t able to see or understand where I am coming from certainly doesn’t mean that I am not grounded in a set of beliefs. If you can’t fathom them, then that is your shortcoming. Don’t imagine that I don’t have them. They may however differ from yours…

You know what you sound like. You sound like a born again Christian who feels compelled to tell everyone about it. You have this ferver for something that you believe in. Are you a fanatic yourself?

Feel free to start your own thread if you want to lecture people on left vs right and your view of the world. This thread is about looking at a set of principles and how they may or may not be suitable for use.

vroom · February 11, 2006, 11:18am

No, in fact I didn’t. Perhaps you should develop better comprehension skills and stop jumping to conclusions.

alstan90 · February 11, 2006, 2:31pm

[quote]vroom wrote:
Yeh well, vroom agreed with you, as good as saying it.

No, in fact I didn’t. Perhaps you should develop better comprehension skills and stop jumping to conclusions.
[/quote]

On the other thread you said: “just blow up a mosque every time there is a terrorist strike.”

Are you going to now tell me I learnt the alphabet the wrong way round, because that is something you said, right?

PantyPeePunch · February 11, 2006, 2:48pm

vroom did not take the other thread seriously alstan, everyone seems to understand this but you - you angry little man.

vroom · February 11, 2006, 5:07pm

No, I’m going to call you sadly unable to comprehend the truth around you.

I have told you myself that I was being sarcastic in that thread. Now, perhaps you don’t appreciate sarcasm, much as some did not appreciate the cartoons.

Nevertheless, I have even gone so far as to declare a retraction of my comments IN CASE the thread was becoming serious and other less than competent folks, such as yourself, were to take my words the wrong way.

Really, until you are able to follow along and comprehend the simple facts as people state them to you, there is no point in conversing with you, because you won’t let anything into your mind anyway.

Now, if you don’t mind, perhaps you could show some respect and stop hijacking this thread with your innane garbage.

Headhunter · February 12, 2006, 7:41am

[quote]vroom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Until you obtain a core philosophy, none of what you are studying will make much sense. Like the hippies of the 1960’s, you’ll simply drift along, and since you won’t have a core philosophy, you’ll react by simply saying that anyone WITH a core philosophy is wrong.