Four Principles

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]dermo wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

Is there no room for faith in this (or other) discussions? Are you saying Christians are not welcome, but only atheists?

I call this discrimination of the worst kind.

Oh, and by the way, God loves you too!

Sorry to participate in the hijacking of Vroom’s thread, but Steveo, are saying that there are only atheists and Christians in the world? You also said that only those who know God can find truth - does this mean that Buddhists, Hindus and other devout, spiritual people cannot find the truth? Steveo, this is discrimination of the worst kind.
[/quote]

Then take it up with God…

22

Vroom,

When I first read your four principles, the thing that stood out to me is that you kept referring to what people “should” do.

Please tell me, why “should” anyone do anything, especially these four things on your list?

Please think about the question and don’t just write it off. (Or ignore me like you always do.) :slight_smile:

23

There really only needs to be one rule when it comes to humanity:

“Treat others how you would like to be treated.”

The Golden Rule takes into account every action of humanity.

http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html

24

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am taking a sociology course this year and generally am having a lot of thoughts about the interactions of people.

I’m trying to come up with something simple and fairly self-evident that most people would accept as a set of guidelines or principles.

While other people may focus on other issues, I’ve chosen four:

  • Respect.
  • Humility.
  • Wisdom.
  • Strength.

The first principle is respect. Everything in this universe should be treated with respect. Even enemies can be treated with respect. People of different sexes, races and religions can be treated with respect. Though we should always treat others with respect, we must also be able to deal with the fact that we will not always be shown respect by others.
[/quote]
Respect is the only necessary rule.

I am pretty sure that the other three principles can be derived from it.

You’re saying that the second principle’s role is to help enforce the first.

I think that it’s the other way around.

If we respect the first principle we will be obliged to respect the second.

Knowledge and wisdom are necessary in order to respect the first principle.

If we try to obey the first principle, knowledge and wisdom come naturally.

Physical strength comes from RESPECT your body.

etc.

25

Vroom,

I dont think that I will be able to write as well as you have done, but here are my thinkings on what you wrote, thay may be very convaluted and confusing, but I thought that I would give it a shot anyway.

Your discussion on strength in this post focusses solely on physical strength and ability. If it doesnt already do so, I think that any further discussions should include mental strength as well. I think that mental strength of a person if just as important, if not more important than physical strength. I think that mental strength will get you a lot more in life, provide for a happier life, and make more worthwhile than physical strength allow for. But having said that, if the attributes of respect and humility were applied by all humans the need for mental strength would be considerably lower than what is required in society of today.

Although my thinking today wouldnt help me to go any further with this next idea I though that I would give you my thoughts anyway. I see respect and humility as inseperable from each other, and may even be simplified into a single concept, although I dont know what that concept would be…I think that you cant truly be humble unless you have respect for others and the world in which we live, and you cant have or deserve respect unless you are truly humble. Therefore I think that the two are inseperable and therefore one cant exist without the other.

I have this feeling that my ramblings may not make sense to anyone except me and are very poorly written, but hey, they may prompt more discussion which is always a good thing.

Mike

26

First of all, good idea for a thread vroom. I hope it doesn’t get derailed too much.

My INITIAL thoughts:

[quote]vroom wrote:
Can they be simplified?[/quote]

Yes. Right off the bat, I would agree with others who have stated that Respect implies Humility. There is little need to single Humility out.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Can they be stated in a way that makes them even more self-evident? [/quote]

Well, my biggest concern with your 4 (or 3…) principles is:

You did not explain what is the driving factor for them – why and what for do you think these principles. This is important to define the scope.

For example, while respect / humility are important to simple live in harmony as a society, your other principles are not (unless you accept that being wise is necessary to be respectful, in which case it should not be singled out); they’re mostly for your own benefit.

If the scope is, indeed, your own best interest, then things like creativity come into play. If the scope is to better and advance humanity as a whole, then things like initiative might also be important.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Do they preclude any current national or religious doctrine, such that conflict is required?[/quote]

No, most doctrines will argue on the implementation (or, rather, the understanding)… not on the principles. For example, many doctrines will, right off the bat, have a very different understanding of what is respect for women… And I’m talking doctrines at the micro- level.

What defines respect – and WHAT to respect – is so varied across and AMONG cultures that it would be funny if it weren’t so tragic.

Yes, AMONG cultures – even Evangelical Christians argue among themselves what defines respect for God’s creations, for example.

27

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am taking a sociology course this year and generally am having a lot of thoughts about the interactions of people.

I’m trying to come up with something simple and fairly self-evident that most people would accept as a set of guidelines or principles.

While other people may focus on other issues, I’ve chosen four:

  • Respect.
  • Humility.
  • Wisdom.
  • Strength.

The first principle is respect. Everything in this universe should be treated with respect. Even enemies can be treated with respect. People of different sexes, races and religions can be treated with respect. Though we should always treat others with respect, we must also be able to deal with the fact that we will not always be shown respect by others.

The second principle is humility. We are not that important. Our countries are not that important. Our regligions are not that important. Our beliefs are not that important. We should strive not to place so much importance on ourselves and our beliefs that we find it easy to justify violation of the principle of respect towards others.

The third principle is wisdom. We should strive to learn and to think clearly about the issues around us. Part of our uniqueness in the universe is our ability to develop knowledge. We should value knowledge and wisdom and strive to increase these attributes in ourselves over our lifetime. This is the proper way to show respect for this gift.

The fourth and final principle is strength. The mental aspect of humanity is not the only aspect. We are physical creatures and we must also embrace this. We should maintain personal strength and conditioning in order to ensure the ability to defend ourselves from external threats, in essence, to survive.

I believe the concept of respect is enough to develop laws that reflect the same ideals espoused by modern society.

I think that humility could remind us all to be respectful, such that we could avoid unnecessary conflict.

Wisdom and strength reflect our rational thinking existence and our physical existence. To develop principles of living it would make sense to celebrate all aspects of life that we have been given.

Anyway, as well as your thoughts on the concept in general, I am trying to develop these thoughts. Can they be simplified? Can they be stated in a way that makes them even more self-evident? Do they preclude any current national or religious doctrine, such that conflict is required?[/quote]

Vroom,
Some food for thought…
Respect-must start with respect for yourself-Integrity.
Humility-this also comes as a result of being grateful for your life and what we have.Being content in turn allow us not to be so selfcentered.
Wisdom-the knowledge one aquires from living life and,uses it to make sound decisions in the future.
Strength-has two forms-one is the physical,the other is mental ,which must have positive component.

28

Great idea for a thread Vroom.
I have a couple of thoughts on this …

I have learned that there are really only two polarities to the human experience. Two polarities that within themselves encompass all others, they are love and fear.

You are clearly thinking and living from the side of love. Love as a universal truth, life giving, creative energy.

As soon as people bring religion into it, they are operating from fear. Fear that their beliefs, or principles are wrong, or that others will not agree.

So, if love is truth, absolute universal truth, then i see humility first. There is so much more than ourselves going on here, let alone other peopele, but just look up, or around you in nature. Humility would lead to respect immediatly, and again, not in a fear based way, but with the truth/knowledge/love that we are all one. (which science will tell you is true at both the physical and the quantum level)

I dont like the word belief, it implies that it cant change, or at the very least is extremely resistant to change. I prefer the word “idea”. And Vroom, your four principles are a very good “idea”.

People will kill for their beliefs. Just read the news, look around yourself at the limited thinking that results form having convicted beliefs, look within yourself, but ideas, such as in this case, can spark a lively debate and evolve into some great “ideal” sociological conditions for us all.

29

[quote]JPBear wrote:
When I first read your four principles, the thing that stood out to me is that you kept referring to what people “should” do.

Please tell me, why “should” anyone do anything, especially these four things on your list?[/quote]

JP,

I don’t know. Whether or not we “should” do anything, we are in fact continously doing things.

I’d say that if we are going to be doing things, then it bears some thinking as to what we should be doing or how we should go about doing it.

In more concrete terms, we have a lot of ideologies on the planet. These ideologies are often twisted and misused to create conflict. If a set of simple principles can be adopted prior to such an attempt at misuse, it might be possible to have it act like a vaccine against this.

However, the key to me is simplicity. There is no point in coming up with a complex system that nobody will have the time to consider.

30

[quote]oboffill wrote:
There really only needs to be one rule when it comes to humanity:

“Treat others how you would like to be treated.”

The Golden Rule takes into account every action of humanity.

Account Suspended [/quote]

Could ‘good’ exist without ‘evil’?

Nature shows us that diversity (of DNA, chemicals, ideas, people, experiences, etc.) is more favorable than homogeneity.

31

I can see the arguments for combining some of the items, but I think things get a bit more complex if that is done… not that it couldn’t be.

The rational behind these four items is the following:

  • View of the universe.
  • View of ourselves.
  • Our non-physical attributes.
  • Our physical attributes.

We certainly are in the universe and our view of it may certainly encompass our view of ourselves.

However, I think there are aspects of humility which are easy to demonstrate directly, whereas they are convoluted if arrived at via respect.

For example, if you are successful and highly promoted in your job, you may certainly respect your coworkers. However, you may also feel that you are inherently better than they are. Humility seems, to me anyway, to be more suited to bleeding off this feeling of self-importance than respect.

Alternately, it is very easy for me to consider myself a much more complex and important being than my pets. Again, humility can bring me back to earth much faster than respect. My pets are beloved and I treat them respectfully, but it will take some aspect of humility to deflate an overblown ego, won’t it?

The mental/emotional/spiritual and physical aspects of being are again divided. This is a very common theme and people seem to feel it is a natural split since their aspects are so different in nature.

32

Vroom,
My quick $.02 contribution,

  • Respect.
  • Humility.
  • Wisdom.
  • Strength.

First off, I agree with others that humility and respect are opposite sides of the same coin. My disagreement is with the underlying trend of your principles, life is largely about conflict, there is no conflict in the above principles. Without knowing your specific motivations for generating these principles and subjecting you to a lengthy pseudo-religious diatribe (which I’m sure you don’t need), I merely submit the following ideals/corrections:

-Objective Respect

True, all living things need respect but every interaction amongst living and non-living things must have a win/lose/tie outcome. Sometimes respect must be tempered by this knowledge/wisdom.

-Capricious Wisdom

I could throw in slews of quotes that say things like “the beginner’s mind…”, “only when you realize you know nothing…”, or “be not beholden…” but I think you get my point from this single sentence.

-Tempered Strength

Much like respect, every situation must be win/lose/tie. Best to have invested the strength to win, conserved it when you lose, and met in the middle to tie. Unfortunately, capricious wisdom is what it takes to know how much to invest.

That’s my $.02, it’s not a very big investment, but I’m not looking to “win” this interaction.

33

[quote]vroom wrote:
I can see the arguments for combining some of the items, but I think things get a bit more complex if that is done… not that it couldn’t be.

The rational behind these four items is the following:

  • View of the universe.
  • View of ourselves.
  • Our non-physical attributes.
  • Our physical attributes.

We certainly are in the universe and our view of it may certainly encompass our view of ourselves.

However, I think there are aspects of humility which are easy to demonstrate directly, whereas they are convoluted if arrived at via respect.

For example, if you are successful and highly promoted in your job, you may certainly respect your coworkers. However, you may also feel that you are inherently better than they are. Humility seems, to me anyway, to be more suited to bleeding off this feeling of self-importance than respect.

Alternately, it is very easy for me to consider myself a much more complex and important being than my pets. Again, humility can bring me back to earth much faster than respect. My pets are beloved and I treat them respectfully, but it will take some aspect of humility to deflate an overblown ego, won’t it?

The mental/emotional/spiritual and physical aspects of being are again divided. This is a very common theme and people seem to feel it is a natural split since their aspects are so different in nature.[/quote]

Sorry, chipped in my $.02 before I read your last couple posts. Allow me to chip in two more.

First, I don’t think conflict can be “vaccinated against”. That’s really all I can say (Not really, but we could argue ad nauseum and I’m not willing to invest that much in this debate/regard).

Second, wrt the respect/humility compression issue:

  • View of the universe.
  • View of ourselves.
  • Our non-physical attributes.
  • Our physical attributes.

Do you view yourself as being something other than your physical and non-physical attributes?

34

I’m just shooting for simplicity… which I am not defining as having the minimal number of precepts.

People act on the world. We hold ourselves special in some way due to our ability to perceive and believe. We have physical and non-physical attributes that require care and feeding.

Those are the four division points that I’ve chosen… I’m sure others could be chosen instead.

35

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Vroom,

When I first read your four principles, the thing that stood out to me is that you kept referring to what people “should” do.

Please tell me, why “should” anyone do anything, especially these four things on your list?

Please think about the question and don’t just write it off. (Or ignore me like you always do.) :)[/quote]

Just to add to what vroom said, I think another reason we ‘should’ follow these guiding principles is that they will ultimately make our lives and the lives of the people around us more enjoyable.

36

Vroom,

If I missed it I’m sorry…but what’s the point of this? Are you trying to figure society out? Are you trying to figure people out? Or, are you trying to enlighten people and society, or teach them how to treat others?

Also, I’m assuming this is specific to our western civilization and not a global concept?

37

Vroom,

This is a really good thread idea - I like it. I am more than a little puzzled that people seem to be looking for some kind of motives or end result from all of this outside of a discussion on the importance of principles or values in how each of us guide or thoughts and actions.

For me personally, I have boiled down much of what I deem to be important into a single value: honor. Now, my definition of what that is may certainly vary from how someone else may view it. But to me, it comprises much of what I find to be “good” in humankind - love, respect, wisdom, strength, humility, etc. So in a sense, I think it can be boiled down to a simpler list (in least in my own worldview). It’s the single value or principle I hold most dear and attempt to judge myself by as best I can (some days I do better than others).

For instance, strength. I related honor to strength in that if I am not taking care of my body or giving a full effort in the gym when I train, I am not honoring myself or (from a religious standpoint) the gift of life God gave to me. I don’t mean that to sound overly serious where if I have nothing in the tank in a workout, I feel like I have sinned. lol But maybe you get the general idea.

Or humility. I find no honor in arrogance or placing myself in a superior position to my fellow man.

In terms of your question on whether national or religious doctrines preclude any of them, I think that is somewhat inherent to a large degree. For instance, my concept of honor is going to differ from, say, that of someone in an Asian culture or perhaps of a Muslim… which I think is fine, but I also believe there are some core elements held in common between them.

I take it you are seeking to identify some of those core elements amongst different group and societies and so on? If so, that’s a pretty damn interesting discussion.

Kuz

38

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Vroom,

The problem with what you are saying here is that it sounds really good, but what does this really mean?

I agree that everyone should treat everyone else with respect. As a Christian, my faith teaches that. We are to even love our enemies.

However, God’s Word (The Bible) which is the only true source of Wisdom also says that absolute TRUTH is vital and important.

The problem with the rest of your outline is that it really asserts what I would call a “moral relativism.” In other words, what’s true for you is truth for you, but not necessarily truth for me, and my truth is equal and just as good as your truth is for you." The problem with this is that – What then is truth? Is it something we (man) invents? Is this something we think up for ourselves?

It is quite evident from everyday experience with our natural world that there IS an absolute truth about things:

a) The sky (when there are no clouds) is absolutely blue.
b) The wind is absolutely invisible.
c) 2 + 2 is absolutely 4

etc. etc.

There are many many examples of this…

While there are many man-centered “truths” there is ultimately only one truth and the One truth giver – God.

“Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”

Isaiah 55:6-7
[/quote]

Eh,
I think the major difference between his points and your is that he didnt use religion in any part of it.

39

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am taking a sociology course this year and generally am having a lot of thoughts about the interactions of people.

I’m trying to come up with something simple and fairly self-evident that most people would accept as a set of guidelines or principles.

While other people may focus on other issues, I’ve chosen four:

  • Respect.
  • Humility.
  • Wisdom.
  • Strength.

The first principle is respect. Everything in this universe should be treated with respect. Even enemies can be treated with respect. People of different sexes, races and religions can be treated with respect. Though we should always treat others with respect, we must also be able to deal with the fact that we will not always be shown respect by others.

The second principle is humility. We are not that important. Our countries are not that important. Our regligions are not that important. Our beliefs are not that important. We should strive not to place so much importance on ourselves and our beliefs that we find it easy to justify violation of the principle of respect towards others.

The third principle is wisdom. We should strive to learn and to think clearly about the issues around us. Part of our uniqueness in the universe is our ability to develop knowledge. We should value knowledge and wisdom and strive to increase these attributes in ourselves over our lifetime. This is the proper way to show respect for this gift.

The fourth and final principle is strength. The mental aspect of humanity is not the only aspect. We are physical creatures and we must also embrace this. We should maintain personal strength and conditioning in order to ensure the ability to defend ourselves from external threats, in essence, to survive.

I believe the concept of respect is enough to develop laws that reflect the same ideals espoused by modern society.

I think that humility could remind us all to be respectful, such that we could avoid unnecessary conflict.

Wisdom and strength reflect our rational thinking existence and our physical existence. To develop principles of living it would make sense to celebrate all aspects of life that we have been given.

Anyway, as well as your thoughts on the concept in general, I am trying to develop these thoughts. Can they be simplified? Can they be stated in a way that makes them even more self-evident? Do they preclude any current national or religious doctrine, such that conflict is required?[/quote]

What happens when someone doesn’t follow the guidelines? What reaction should we have towards the person who does not fall inline with the priniciples?

40

Hey buddy, change “Humility” to “Selflessness” and I think you have a good start.