Forks Over Knives

[cueball]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.[/quote]

OK

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.

My point is that after that long of a layoff you can make strength gains (numbers going up) regardless of what your diet looked like. Especially since it’s only been a week.

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.
[/quote]

That sounds awful, good luck I guess.

How much do you weigh btw? 40g of fat is way way low

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.[/quote]

OK

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.

My point is that after that long of a layoff you can make strength gains (numbers going up) regardless of what your diet looked like. Especially since it’s only been a week.[/quote]

Exactly.

[jehovasfitness]

Another thing. Being that low in fat intake and protein, I’d be curious how much of that 8# lost is muscle vs fat

[wannabebig250]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.
[/quote]

That sounds awful, good luck I guess.

How much do you weigh btw? 40g of fat is way way low[/quote]

about 220 right now. for a long time i followed certain members’ advice about bulking. you know, eat a ton of food cause “nobody got big eating salad”. lots, and lots of meat and fat and carbs. lots of cheeseburgers.

want to get back down to 190-200. i dont know how much fat the body truly needs to be healthy, but i feel fine on 40g. maybe ill up it a bit higher. but from the “forks over knives” video the real message is FAT GON KILL YOU! lol.

[wannabebig250]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Another thing. Being that low in fat intake and protein, I’d be curious how much of that 8# lost is muscle vs fat[/quote]

visibly in the mirror it looks entirely like ive lost fat, as i still have the same size in my arms, chest, shoulders, etc. maybe i lost a little from my back and legs though. biggest muscles give up their muscle first? no idea til i get lower in bodyfat and can assess it at the same weight i felt “comfortable” in a few months ago. all i know is i lost like an inch or more off my waist, because all my pants are really loose.

[wannabebig250]

also i have never had grass fed beef or free range chicken or eggs, and i no longer trust farm raised animals that are filled with antibiotics and hormones.

im sure the fatty acid profile of cows that are allowed to eat their true diet is much better than the corn fed beef you find in stores.

[wannabebig250]

anybody have any insight about this video?

Are Humans Designed To Eat Meat?

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.
[/quote]

That sounds awful, good luck I guess.

How much do you weigh btw? 40g of fat is way way low[/quote]

about 220 right now. for a long time i followed certain members’ advice about bulking. you know, eat a ton of food cause “nobody got big eating salad”. lots, and lots of meat and fat and carbs. lots of cheeseburgers.

want to get back down to 190-200. i dont know how much fat the body truly needs to be healthy, but i feel fine on 40g. maybe ill up it a bit higher. but from the “forks over knives” video the real message is FAT GON KILL YOU! lol.[/quote]

and that message is horribly horribly wrong. Anyways, I thought the overall message was animal foods will kill you

How ANYONE can buy into the belief that eating animals causes health problems (generally speaking) based upon human history, observations from the past 8 or so decades of hunter-gatherer societies and recent nutritional studies (not relying on just bullshit epidemiological studies) is beyond me.

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.
[/quote]

That sounds awful, good luck I guess.

How much do you weigh btw? 40g of fat is way way low[/quote]

about 220 right now. for a long time i followed certain members’ advice about bulking. you know, eat a ton of food cause “nobody got big eating salad”. lots, and lots of meat and fat and carbs. lots of cheeseburgers.

want to get back down to 190-200. i dont know how much fat the body truly needs to be healthy, but i feel fine on 40g. maybe ill up it a bit higher. but from the “forks over knives” video the real message is FAT GON KILL YOU! lol.[/quote]

Ha, and I hear ya on the bulking. I did that several years ago, went a little overboard. It was a learning experience though and glad I did it. Taught me that I really didn’t have an idea of how much I really had to eat to grow.

As for eating a lot of meat, fat and carbs, I would suggest in the future limiting at least one of those either fat or carbs, both together could be problematic. Of course I tend to prefer limiting carbs, and upping the fat.

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
also i have never had grass fed beef or free range chicken or eggs, and i no longer trust farm raised animals that are filled with antibiotics and hormones.

im sure the fatty acid profile of cows that are allowed to eat their true diet is much better than the corn fed beef you find in stores.[/quote]

Spot on

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
anybody have any insight about this video?

Are Humans Designed To Eat Meat?

I think I ran across this a while back, but the premise is just another example of vegans searching to prove their point.

1. yes, humans are designed to eat meat
   a. we are capable of breaking/digesting and absorbing them
   b. humans have been eating meat for hundreds, if I’m not mistaken millions of years, with very little evidence of western diseases
   c. that does not mean one must eat meat, though I believe it’s sub-optimal to do so
   d. no studied hunter-gatherer tribe (at this point) were exclusive vegans until recently
   e. the digestive system is fully capable of breakding down animal food, but in fact some fiber is not digestible, makes you wonder why we are told to eat stuff that we cannot digest.

[wannabebig250]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.
[/quote]

That sounds awful, good luck I guess.

How much do you weigh btw? 40g of fat is way way low[/quote]

about 220 right now. for a long time i followed certain members’ advice about bulking. you know, eat a ton of food cause “nobody got big eating salad”. lots, and lots of meat and fat and carbs. lots of cheeseburgers.

want to get back down to 190-200. i dont know how much fat the body truly needs to be healthy, but i feel fine on 40g. maybe ill up it a bit higher. but from the “forks over knives” video the real message is FAT GON KILL YOU! lol.[/quote]

and that message is horribly horribly wrong. Anyways, I thought the overall message was animal foods will kill you

How ANYONE can buy into the belief that eating animals causes health problems (generally speaking) based upon human history, observations from the past 8 or so decades of hunter-gatherer societies and recent nutritional studies (not relying on just bullshit epidemiological studies) is beyond me.
[/quote]

ive been reading a bunch of stuff lately that says all hunter gatherers ate were plants, fruits and veggies in season, nuts, and once every 2 months probably had one “big kill” where the whole tribe ate got to meat until it was gone.

its interesting to see all the conflicting views.

[wannabebig250]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.
[/quote]

That sounds awful, good luck I guess.

How much do you weigh btw? 40g of fat is way way low[/quote]

about 220 right now. for a long time i followed certain members’ advice about bulking. you know, eat a ton of food cause “nobody got big eating salad”. lots, and lots of meat and fat and carbs. lots of cheeseburgers.

want to get back down to 190-200. i dont know how much fat the body truly needs to be healthy, but i feel fine on 40g. maybe ill up it a bit higher. but from the “forks over knives” video the real message is FAT GON KILL YOU! lol.[/quote]

Ha, and I hear ya on the bulking. I did that several years ago, went a little overboard. It was a learning experience though and glad I did it. Taught me that I really didn’t have an idea of how much I really had to eat to grow.

As for eating a lot of meat, fat and carbs, I would suggest in the future limiting at least one of those either fat or carbs, both together could be problematic. Of course I tend to prefer limiting carbs, and upping the fat.
[/quote]

whenever i limit carbs, i lose weight quick indeed, but my mood drops dramatically, and i look really pale, like im sick, and start to break out on my face. once i add back in whole grains like brown rice, quinoa, barley, limit wheat, i start to get my complexion and mood back. i dont know if im lacking a nutrient present in whole grains, or the carbohydrates themselves.

[wannabebig250]

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
anybody have any insight about this video?

Are Humans Designed To Eat Meat?

I think I ran across this a while back, but the premise is just another example of vegans searching to prove their point.

1. yes, humans are designed to eat meat
   a. we are capable of breaking/digesting and absorbing them
   b. humans have been eating meat for hundreds, if I’m not mistaken millions of years, with very little evidence of western diseases
   c. that does not mean one must eat meat, though I believe it’s sub-optimal to do so
   d. no studied hunter-gatherer tribe (at this point) were exclusive vegans until recently
   e. the digestive system is fully capable of breakding down animal food, but in fact some fiber is not digestible, makes you wonder why we are told to eat stuff that we cannot digest.
   [/quote]

my first thought of the video was what you mentioned, vegans were trying to prove their point any way that they could. “phishing” for evidence to spin in the favour.

what do you think about comparing the teeth, jaws and digestive track lengths of humans to carnivores though?

[paulieserafini]

maybe I’m missing something but what I didn’t like about the movie was that they basically said throughout it that meat was bad for you and carcinogenic, yet the only studies they ever did was on casein and milk products right?

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
BUMP!

been “animal protein” free for 1 week now. lost about 8lbs. numbers in the gym are going up after a 6 week layoff.

just sayin’, you wont shrivel up and die on 50g of plant protein per day.

EDIT: i do plan on upping the protein to ~100g with a vegan protein powder[/quote]

Out of curiosity, did you compensate the reduction in calories from animal protein with other calorie sources? If not, the losing 8 lbs is from the reduction in calories more so than “no animal protein”.

Also, I know for sure if I took 6 weeks off and then went back, my numbers would be increasing as well, regardless of how I was eating. This would simply be because my numbers had dropped from where they were before the break and were climbing back up.

[/quote]

if anything im eating more food now than i was before. probably 400g of carbs a day. under 40g of fat and around 50-60g of protein. lots of rice, beans, lentils, nuts, etc. to compensate for missing calories from animal protein.

understood numbers would go up after a 6 week layoff. im saying they ARE going up even though there is a “lack of” animal protein to repair and rebuild muscle tissue after hard workouts.
[/quote]

That sounds awful, good luck I guess.

How much do you weigh btw? 40g of fat is way way low[/quote]

about 220 right now. for a long time i followed certain members’ advice about bulking. you know, eat a ton of food cause “nobody got big eating salad”. lots, and lots of meat and fat and carbs. lots of cheeseburgers.

want to get back down to 190-200. i dont know how much fat the body truly needs to be healthy, but i feel fine on 40g. maybe ill up it a bit higher. but from the “forks over knives” video the real message is FAT GON KILL YOU! lol.[/quote]

and that message is horribly horribly wrong. Anyways, I thought the overall message was animal foods will kill you

How ANYONE can buy into the belief that eating animals causes health problems (generally speaking) based upon human history, observations from the past 8 or so decades of hunter-gatherer societies and recent nutritional studies (not relying on just bullshit epidemiological studies) is beyond me.
[/quote]

ive been reading a bunch of stuff lately that says all hunter gatherers ate were plants, fruits and veggies in season, nuts, and once every 2 months probably had one “big kill” where the whole tribe ate got to meat until it was gone.

its interesting to see all the conflicting views.[/quote]

That can be correct depending upon the tribe and location. You think Eskinos ever ate like that

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
maybe I’m missing something but what I didn’t like about the movie was that they basically said throughout it that meat was bad for you and carcinogenic, yet the only studies they ever did was on casein and milk products right?[/quote]

Correct, and it was pointed out the rats studied that were given a lot of casein actually still lived longer than those that were not given any casein. IIRC, those rats died sooner from liver damage. Been a while since I read up on it though.

[jehovasfitness]

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
anybody have any insight about this video?

Are Humans Designed To Eat Meat?

I think I ran across this a while back, but the premise is just another example of vegans searching to prove their point.

1. yes, humans are designed to eat meat
   a. we are capable of breaking/digesting and absorbing them
   b. humans have been eating meat for hundreds, if I’m not mistaken millions of years, with very little evidence of western diseases
   c. that does not mean one must eat meat, though I believe it’s sub-optimal to do so
   d. no studied hunter-gatherer tribe (at this point) were exclusive vegans until recently
   e. the digestive system is fully capable of breakding down animal food, but in fact some fiber is not digestible, makes you wonder why we are told to eat stuff that we cannot digest.
   [/quote]

my first thought of the video was what you mentioned, vegans were trying to prove their point any way that they could. “phishing” for evidence to spin in the favour.

what do you think about comparing the teeth, jaws and digestive track lengths of humans to carnivores though?[/quote]

I’m sure there is some merit, but it doesn’t have to an all-or-nothing thing. We don’t have multiple stomachs like pure herbivores.

I’d have to dig up the source that refutes the digestive system comparisons, but suffice it to say, it’s not as easy/clear as vegans make it out to be.

Here’s what I’ll end this post with. NO animal on Earth needs someone else to tell them what to eat. Humans didn’t either until what 100 yrs ago? Otherwise, humans were eating meat/eggs/fish prior to having this great nutritional wisdom they like to think they have. And look what has happened.

Real food has never been a problem, whether that’s animal or plant. Processed foods are though, simple as that. Then again, RD programs can’t exist off that premise, neither can the health industry.

[wannabebig250]

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
maybe I’m missing something but what I didn’t like about the movie was that they basically said throughout it that meat was bad for you and carcinogenic, yet the only studies they ever did was on casein and milk products right?[/quote]

from denise minger:

Minute 16:10â??Shortly afterward, Dr. Campbell came across a scientific paper published in a little-known Indian medical journal. It detailed work that had been done on a population of experimental rats that were first exposed to a carcinogen called aflatoxin, then fed a diet of casein, the main protein found in milk. [Campbell:] â??They were testing the effect of protein on the development of liver cancer. They used two different levels of protein: They used 20% of total calories, and then they used a much lower level, 5%. Twenty percent turned on cancer; 5% turned it off.â??

Donâ??t get distracted by those red letters! What weâ??re interested in is the sentence near the bottom, which the filmâ??s producers apparently didnâ??t notice: â??In all, 30 rats on the high-protein diet and 12 on the low-protein diet survived for more than a year.â??

Let that sink in for a moment. Maybe itâ??ll hit a little harder if I told you that in the â??high protein vs. low proteinâ?? experiments discussed in this paper, 10 low-protein rats died prematurely while all the high-protein rats stayed alive. In other words, the overall survival rate for the 20% casein group was much better than for the 5% casein group, despite the fact they had liver tumors. The low-protein rats were dying rapidlyâ??just not from liver cancer. And as weâ??ll see later, the reason the non-dead, low-protein rats didnâ??t get tumors was partly because their liver cells were committing mass suicide.

Regarding that paper from India that sparked Campbellâ??s â??aha protein evil!â?? moment, Chris notes that â??Campbell never tells us â?¦ that these Indian researchers actually published this paper as part of a two-paper set, one showing that low-casein diets make aflatoxin much more acutely toxic to rats.â?? This second paper is called The Effect of Dietary Protein on Liver Injury in Weanling Rats, and indeed, it shows that rats on low-protein diets experience much more actual liver damage than rats on high-protein diets when theyâ??re exposed to aflatoxin. They donâ??t get cancer, but theyâ??re sicker overall because theyâ??re less capable of detoxifying aflatxoinâ??leading to fun stuff like fatty liver, liver necrosis (cell death), proliferation of bile duct tissue, and early death. As Chris puts it:

Somehow, I doubt many people would read this study and shout â??sign me up!â?? for a low-protein, plant-based diet if it is going to save them from cancer at the expense of killing them in their youth.

Indeed! As weâ??ll see later in this critique, Campbellâ??s own low-protein rats werenâ??t a rosy picture of health, either. Even more exciting, weâ??ll look at some more studies conducted in India showing that low-casein dietsâ??but not high-casein dietsâ??promote cancer when aflatoxin dosage is at a lower, real-world-applicable level. Fun times ahead! (If youâ??re impatient, you can skip to that section right now by clicking here.)

awfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/

lots to read on that site