[quote]haney wrote:
He is a Paramedic/Fireman. The call was a paramedic call. the people searching for Him for 4 hours where paramedics. He never claimed it was a miracle. He only said He could not explain it. It was a CPR class offered by my job. No one asked him about his religious affiliation, and no one asked him what he thought it was. He just said he has seen some things that defy explination.
I never said it was a miracle I just said there is no explination for it.[/quote]
Well, you did say “I am certain everyone in the medical community would say that is impossible. Logically and physically.” You claim that something impossible logically and physically happened. That’s the very definition of “miracle.”
The difference being, we claim there is a physical, logical explanation. You claim a supernatural one.
Of course he does. It reinforces his views in the mysterious ways God can work. You’ll repeat to me that no inquiry was made into his religious convictions, but I’ll tell you this: he wasn’t a skeptical atheist exercising critical thinking, that’s for sure.
You can play word games all day long, but claiming that something supernatural or “impossible” happened simply because we don’t have all the facts to explain it otherwise does not a miracle (or a “logic defying event”) make.
Yes, as long as he knows what I’ll decide before I do, free will is just an illusion. I might feel free to change my mind, or even change it 1000 times, but no matter how much I try to “surprise” an omniscient God, it is impossible. Hence, while I might feel I’m exercising free will, I’m not.
No, but if you’re saying that you can accept the idea of a powerful but not omnipotent God with a wide ranging knowledge, but not omniscience; and who’s not all good but a bit more neutral and “hands off” we could be getting somewhere. But AFAIK, that goes against almost every church doctrine I can think of, be they Christian, Muslim or Jewish.
[quote]You are the one who said as we understand it it makes no sense. I said you are right we can’t understand it, and then you say that is the way you Theist are, you take the we can’t understand it route, and now you have come full circle back to we can’t understand it.
Maybe you should give up talking about logic since you keep running in circles.[/quote]
No, I said we can’t understand because the premise is flawed. The premise is that God the Creator is omniscient, omnipotent, all-good and gave us free will. That’s an impossible combination, like a square circle or 2+2=5.
The burden of proof is on those making the extraordinary claims. His stating that he can’t explain it simply states that he can’t explain it. It does not rule out a logical explanation he hasn’t thought of or considered.
Yeah, right. I just get tired of typing “impossible, logically and physically” every few lines. If it quacks like a miracle and smells like a miracle, let’s call it a miracle. I don’t see how playing those little word games support your point in any way.
Well, it’s not called organized religion for nothing. You all believe in Christ as your personal savior; God has certain attributes; the Trinity is pretty much a given, etc. There are some sects/cults/churches that reject the Pope, the innerancy of the Bible and the Virgin birth, but overall, there are some basic point on which all christians agree. In that way, you have church leaders, bishops and (for some) the Pope (I don’t know if you’re Catholic or Protestant, or Born Again…) speaking for all of you, or large subsets thereof.
Atheism is a more personal thing. We don’t get together and celebrate our lack of belief in a supernatural father figure. And while there are well known atheists, there’s not much in the way of “leaders” or movement. I have met and read “militant” atheists, and, personally, they grate on my nerves.