For Ye Christian Ones...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

pbody03 wrote:
If god( which god?) created the universe and all we know, then who or what created god? Was God always just there or did he appear out of nothing?

What is time? If you leave out the form of energy called matter, you could do physics without using the variable “time”. Matter causes time.

The point I am making is that no one knows for certain if god exists or doesn’t. The problem being some people claim he does, and that’s that. It’s the I’m right you’re wrong crap that’s been around since who know’s when.

Take a look at the post from sandyj, he/she comes on here and tells the athiests that they bum him/her out. He/she tells us to look around as see that gods exists bexcause he/she believes. The arrogance of these comments and this mentallity is astounding. I’ve been hearing this shit since I was a kid. It’s people with attitudes like this that think us poor “unlearned and ignorant” men need to be saved from our beliefs and stand on street corners or ones’ doorstep telling us so.

I can’t remember the last time an athiest came to my door trying to educate me, oh wait I remember, NEVER.

282

[quote]miniross wrote:
have you actually done chemistry/physics/biology/(proper) psychology?

that should answer your question.
[/quote]

That definately does not answer my question.

No one ever showed me an atom in those classes…

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[quote]XCelticX wrote:
miniross wrote:
have you actually done chemistry/physics/biology/(proper) psychology?

that should answer your question.

That definately does not answer my question.

No one ever showed me an atom in those classes…
[/quote]

And no one’s ever showed you God. So I guess atoms and God don’t exist.

284

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
And no one’s ever showed you God. So I guess atoms and God don’t exist.

[/quote]

That’s what I’m getting at. I think atomic theory is certainly more likely to be truth than God though.

Why believe something that can’t, according to its own creator, be seen?

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[quote]XCelticX wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
And no one’s ever showed you God. So I guess atoms and God don’t exist.

That’s what I’m getting at. I think atomic theory is certainly more likely to be truth than God though.

Why believe something that can’t, according to its own creator, be seen?
[/quote]

Faith. Which is the one thing you don’t have.

286

[quote]Blue75 wrote:
miniross wrote:

OK.

Bull…would not try to breed with all of them. he would not, for example breed with one that was a relative, how doeshe know that. i can answer, but just you think about it.

just 1 last point. the brain is an algorythm computer. all things have an algorythm…language, maths, physics therefore everything. there are more possible connections of synapse than there are particles estimated to exist in the universe. that is an amazing thing to have sitting in your head. a product of countless milenia, and we now spend it on this forum discussing it.

at least we aren’t watching TV.

Actually a bull will try to breed every cow in heat. A bull doesn’t differentiate between them. Whether the breed is successful of not is questionable as the genetics may not allow a pregnancy to go full term, but the bull will still try. Herds continue because one bull is replaced and new genetics are introduced, but it’s still driven by those hormones. Take it from a guy who raises cattle.

I appreciate your information on the brain development and advanced thought processes. I believe that this is probably the thing that most of the believers and non believers would like to hold up as their best evidence. A believer would say that this ability to be more advanced is evidence of a higher power and a chosen people (or species). A non believer would hold this up as evidence of gradual evolution over millions of years. I realize that most people wouldn’t believe in God unless He put in a personal appearance. But I wonder if evolution is the truth, why are humans the most advanced since we’ve all (I mean everything on the planet) has been evolving for technically the same amount of time? Shouldn’t their be fish that show advanced civilization? Haven’t Sharks been around longer than us? What do you think?[/quote]

  1. Bull will not do as you say. MHC markers that “iD” immune system “types” are imprinted with pheremones, and experiments (double blnd/randomised) show that the one which we favour (rats/cows/humans etc.)is the one that is MOST different. Otherwise it would be like the bloody appalacheons everywhere. it ensures a diversity and therefore homogeonus mix of genes.

“everything has been evolving for the same thim” how do you figure that. No, everything has not been evolving for the same time. evolution is trillions of little tiny stpes, and one can only tell retrospectively whetehr or not there has been a change. also, our knowledge of shark is not so advanced as to be able to really pin that one down.

If we take that sharks havent changed in x years, is due to lazyness.

not their lazyness, but evolutions lazyness. Why cahnge if you dont need to. They hae found "potentiator"genes which are triggered by say, a pathogen, and kickstart a change. remember, though. This may be as small as a sequencing of a particular protein, not in “appearing” any different.
Again the arrogance. “we are the most advanced”…

…Recently they have found bacteria that have lived for 30000 years, sulphur based lifeform in the most extreme conditions of the ocean, immune systems in crocodiles that are so robust that they are virtually immune to disease.

Also, fish-amphibion-mammal- so in 1 sense you are correct, but also, everything cannot occupy the same position. Look at neanderthal man.

287

This is the point.

Many believers hang on to what is known as the “gap god”.

as stated previously, as knowledge nd understanding spreads from seed into the general public (still woefully misinformed), the space for creationists gets squeezed.

This then comes “cannot disprove god”, well ok. but if you disprove the things he is “SAID” TO HAVE DONE, then what does that tell us.

in over 2000 years it appears that many people wish to be deluded by a concept that at best is comfort, and at worst is terrorizing.

288

[quote]miniross wrote:

  1. Bull will not do as you say. MHC markers that “iD” immune system “types” are imprinted with pheremones, and experiments (double blnd/randomised) show that the one which we favour (rats/cows/humans etc.)is the one that is MOST different.

Also, fish-amphibion-mammal- so in 1 sense you are correct, but also, everything cannot occupy the same position. Look at neanderthal man.[/quote]

Very interesting ideas. I don’t think you understand still what I mean about animals and breeding efforts, but that’s OK. In cattle a rancher can breed back close generations of bulls and cows with out any genetic problems when done correctly. Wildlife also breeds this way as is evidenced in elk herd where a lead bull will breed his daughters at a year old. Animals that exhist in herds do this and genes are determined by the most dominant bulls and able cows. Anyhow the point was more that humans have developed a sense of morality and behaviors that seperate them from this “herd” mentality. Whereas humans might fantasize about a sexual herd idea, it is more about pleasure and not about reproduction. I don’t know, but it seems like the theories of science work hard to explain why we do what we do and why we are what we are, but there seems to be some big gaps. Why did our species evolve to what we are? I think we are really a fragile species. Was it our ability to create and use weapons? If so why didn’t the species we hunted evolve at the same rate to combat us? If the argument about sharks is true and they haven’t needed to evolve, then why haven’t the animals they prey on evolved to defend themselves? Too many questions, does this prove that there is a God and that he had a hand in creation? No, but it makes me wonder if there isn’t a higher being that has gone through the same process we have and has evolved far beyond our comprehension. I mean, if science proves the process of evolution, wouldn’t that mean it’s probable that other beings may have evolved far beyond us and achieved a state of being far beyond our comprehension? Anyhow, thanks for the conversation.

289

right.

i am answering this one last thing, as this is going round and round and round. is there no telling you?

animals have evolved methods to cambat predators…disuise, evasion, flight, poisons any number of extremely advanced survival tactics/adaptations. Just because they haven’t developed a glock doesn’t mean they are not advanced. have you seen the skin of an octopus, that it changes colour, texture, shade, shape. you try that. no, you try inventing something like that. the lab of nature and evolution put our creative efforts to shame.

  1. herd mentality. are you not part of a "herd. herding is a survival mechanism. a very successful one at that. It has nothing to do with mentality. and do you not, in that case follow the herd. are you a hermit living alone, not taking part in mass groupngs, in bars, church, sports clubs, congruently singing/drinking etc alond with other members of that group?

Gaps in knowledge will always be there. the more you know, the more you realise the complexity, and therefore the limitations of that prior knowledge. this is why people think “survival of the species” crap still exists, or people still have freudian therapy, even though it has been thoroughly discredited.

Also, these gaps, relate back to the GAP GOD concept. as understanding/knowledge/technologhy (for investigating) increase, the places where god is seen to answer all is diminishing. backed into a corner of ignorance.

Remember the point of discovery is not to disprove god, but solely to investigate. the large organ in your head enables this to occur. To say too many questions is to simply brush the topic. there are alwys too many questions. but this means so many answers to be discovered.

If our pleistocene ancetors had said “too many…” we would not have the luxury of what we do now, and in fact would have more than likely failed to evolve.

Last point re evolving to higher states. Dinosaurs had been around for many 100’s of millions of years, evolved to increadibly sophisticated creatures, but didn’t go off into the ether as spirits. this makes me doubt the probability of your final statements.

Recommended reading

selfish gene
blind watchmaker

both by richard dawkins.

Ifyou are interwested in some of those questions, these may ba a place to look for them.

290

[quote]miniross wrote:
right.

i am answering this one last thing, as this is going round and round and round. is there no telling you?
.[/quote]

Thanks for the references, when I get some time i’ll look them up. Anyhow, since you seem to be getting a little hostile about this let me just say that maybe instead of viewing yourself as the all knowing instructor standing upon the mountain dispensing knowledge to the unwashed you should consider opening up your mind to what others may have to say. If science is correct in the theory of evolution and time has no meaning then why couldn’t a species evolve to a higher plane of exhistence than what you can concieve? Anyhow, it’s something that entertains me to think about. Continue your research and be strong in your knowledge.

291

[quote]pookie wrote:

(a relatively short reply to a post about quantum physics snipped)

Personally, I think that the current “fad” of superstring theory has veered off in a profound dead end. The sooner physicist abandon that theory and start looking elsewhere, the better we’ll be.[/quote]

10-4 pookie. when i read such papers and articles, i almost can find logic and merit. then i think about it. it just goes too deep without (for me) enough support. and it runs contrary to much common sense. i 100% guarantee you that Schroedinger’s cat is f*cking dead. it’s in this universe which requires oxygen to sustain life. that box is plumb out. therefore, dead cat. based on common understanding of physical life on earth, i don’t need to observe the dead cat to know that it is dead. similarly, as there is no factual support of god, i DO need to see him / her / it to know that he /she / it does exist.

BFG

292

[quote]Blue75 wrote:
miniross wrote:
right.

i am answering this one last thing, as this is going round and round and round. is there no telling you?
.

Thanks for the references, when I get some time i’ll look them up. Anyhow, since you seem to be getting a little hostile about this let me just say that maybe instead of viewing yourself as the all knowing instructor standing upon the mountain dispensing knowledge to the unwashed you should consider opening up your mind to what others may have to say. If science is correct in the theory of evolution and time has no meaning then why couldn’t a species evolve to a higher plane of exhistence than what you can concieve? Anyhow, it’s something that entertains me to think about. Continue your research and be strong in your knowledge. [/quote]

just passionate, and tend to be pig headed in my convictions. I do tend to be a bit “i am right and you lot aren’t”.

well spotted sir. i will work on it!!!

cheers for the convo