For Ye Christian Ones...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
OK, I guess another philisophical game but if the wave function collapses at the speed of light (in four dimensions) then we are the furthest in the future its collapsed to so far.[/quote]

We call that “the present”, I guess.

Time travel, while a fun subject to discuss because of all the paradoxes you can create, is probably not something that’ll have practical applications in a near future… I’d much rather have geneticist figure out how to extend our natural lives so that we can live long into the future. That’s all the time travel I’m asking for.

262

[quote]pookie wrote:
ShaunW wrote:
Haney - you said “Faith for me is a great way for me to have balance. If I believed I was just matter, well lets just say I would see no point in common respect for other people. After all this is all I would have, and I would not see a reason to think of others. I know atheist can have “morals” with out religion, but if I was an atheist I would really have a hard time seeing what the point would be.”

So you are saying that only faith in a mental construct ‘allows’ you to have respect for another person? So someone who has no regard for your construct thus has no regard for you as a person?

I find that notion scary as well. It does tend to come up often in theist/atheist debates. I simply cannot understand how someone can say that without fear of divine retribution or judgement, they’d simply rampage thru their fellow men; killing and pillaging to their heart’s content.
[/quote]

I don’t fear eternal judgement. I would follow the idea that I would be a wretched sinned if not by the Grace of God saving me from my former self.

I never said I would kill, only said I would not have respect for others. My actions do not have to be the extreme. I only allow that they are not required to uphold the standard that I have now.

This is similiar to animals. It is all about dominance. Care and concern for others falls secondary to ones position of power in the pack. I really don’t see why you are so appalled. According to you guys we are nothing more than elevated animals.

No matter how I feel about this idea please do not attribute my desire to live a moral life to fear of eternal judgement. It is more out of trying to honor God with my life. If it was by my attempts to be good that I escaped eternal damnation I most certainly would not escape. Too many things would be against me.

263

Bloke, I think i understand well enough:

"I was saying if we I was not a person of faith if I was an atheist my personalty type would be one that would not really care about anybody but myself.

It is my faith that God has changed me that keeps me from doing that.

I clearly stated there are many atheist who believe you can have morals with out God. That is great. I am happy for them. If I were an athiest I would not prescribe to that.

Lets break this down:
So you mean that without belief in “God” you’re a selfish scumbag?
How about you begin to have faith in yourself, and other people, rather than an idea? You know - trust, connection, empathy - you don’t need god to feel these for/with other people.

Why do you think your personality is dependent on your religion?
My personality is made up from 80% nurture, 20% nature. I’d imagine yours is also, but your nurturers’ imposed religion on you. Bummer dude. Mine didn’t. And we still don’t break laws or run around creating havok!

You state that ‘many athiests believe you can have morals without god’. Talk about arrogance! And then you say - if you were athiest, you “wouldn’t prescribe to that”? Why not - imagine you have a religious switch on you stomach. Turn it to off.
Now have all the people around you changed? Have you changed? Have your attitudes to these people changed?
and if so - why? - because the only thing changed is the way YOU are thinking. nothing else.
ok you can turn the switch back to on if you want.

264

[quote]haney wrote:
I never said I would kill, only said I would not have respect for others. My actions do not have to be the extreme. I only allow that they are not required to uphold the standard that I have now. [/quote]

But could you respect yourself if you treated others so badly?

We could argue about dominance even in our current, mostly theist, society. You probably have a boss; you respect policemen or are subject to judges otherwise. You go to church and have a priest/pastor/revenrend/etc guide you. Some elected officials run you city, county, state and country.

Your “position of power” in society has little to do with raw alpha male dominance, or faith itself.

Taking the argument from the animal side, even when animals live with a pecking order, they tend to protect their own, especially their youngs. A dog will lay his life on the line for his master anyday. The position of power seems mostly a way to ensure that the strongest and fittest get to reproduce more than the weakest; natural selection at work.

What I find appaling (that might be a strong word, let’s say I find it odd) is your seemingly inability of seeing the value in morals/ethics simply from reasoning them out yourself. Must someone really point out to you that helping others selflessly is a “good” thing? Or that causing unnecessary suffering is a “bad” thing?

Could you simply be selling yourself short and attributing to God something that, while you may not have arrived at its conclusion by yourself, couldn’t help but see the “rightness” of once you heard of it?[/quote]

265

[quote]ShaunW wrote:
Bloke, I think i understand well enough:

"I was saying if we I was not a person of faith if I was an atheist my personalty type would be one that would not really care about anybody but myself.

It is my faith that God has changed me that keeps me from doing that.

I clearly stated there are many atheist who believe you can have morals with out God. That is great. I am happy for them. If I were an athiest I would not prescribe to that.

Lets break this down:
So you mean that without belief in “God” you’re a selfish scumbag?
How about you begin to have faith in yourself, and other people, rather than an idea? You know - trust, connection, empathy - you don’t need god to feel these for/with other people.
[/quote]

See that would be the problem. I would be believing in self. I never said you needed God for those things. On the contrary I have stated that atheist do fine with out them. I stated that it is part of my makeup. You see if I didn’t believe that without God I am nothing I can guarantee I would be a very condescending and self serving person. Atleast I am honest about who I would be.

My personality it not dependent God. It is the same with or without God. My actions are what are dependent upon God.

My rents taught me to think freely. Some of my thoughts they have liked, some they have not.

Did I say I would cause havok? I thought I said I would be a sad site, and would not care about much else besides my self and my experience.

How is that arrogant? I have no problem with atheist believing that. I would think you as an athiest would be glad that I am not saying it is impossible to have that.

What would change is I realize this is it. What would it matter what I do or don’t do. Read the book of eccliastes. When I was 16 I felt the way describes in his writings. Can I help it that is how I feel? See even with God I feel a certain pointlessness to “this life” I am certain with out Him I know how I would feel about things.

No need to. I have done all of this a long time ago.

266

[quote]pookie wrote:
haney wrote:
I never said I would kill, only said I would not have respect for others. My actions do not have to be the extreme. I only allow that they are not required to uphold the standard that I have now.

But could you respect yourself if you treated others so badly?
[/quote]

I guessed you missed the part where I said I would only care about my self.

True, but think of all the people in power who abuse the weaker, who have no regard for others. As for a pastor part. I only have Jesus who would be considered abover me. Pastor is incidental.

The point is not that I would be at the top, but that my desires would be motivated to that of self propigation, and nothing else.

protecting your own(family is a given) think about it though there are plenty of families that are torn apart. Why? because at somepoint no matter what the situation someone thought of their self. So self preservation, and desires are always first in foremost.

I like to think of my self as a realist, and in that I realize that if I stole $500.00 bucks from you, while it might make your life tough for a while in 80 years it won’t matter anymore.

No not really. At 16 I was an active member at Church, and I begin to see the pointlessness in life. Only one thing has given me meaning, and that is what I would consider a personal relationship with God, that has developed since that time.

I am sure you are going to say some anti-God thing here.

So let me just say I was at the point in my life where either God was going to become real to me, or I was going to walk away forever. I flat out said " you either fix my problem, or I will do this on my own, and you better do it quick".

I battled deep depression for four months, and that was the last night I ever felt that way.

267

I will be out for the next few days. So hopefully by the time I get back this thread will have died!

later

268

Ok mate - "You see if I didn’t believe that without God I am nothing I can guarantee I would be a very condescending and self serving person. Atleast I am honest about who I would be. "
No - i think you are being a bit fatalist/pessamistic about who you might be.
So if you are condecending and self serving - tada! Welcome to the rest of us. I think every single one of us feels the same deep down. I’m better than everyone else because…
And this is factually true. No-one else is the same as you, thus you are unique. Thus there are things you can do, think, feel, verbalise, etc things that others simply cannot. This makes you better than them. Likewise others have skills / talents that you don’t. Thus they are also better than you - and you are better than them. At the same time.
Being condecending and selfish are learned responses to an individual’s environment. Thus they can be unlearned.
You can be whomever you wish to be - you don’t need a religious construct to exhibit nor inhibit your true self. It’s a wonderful thing; choice.

you said “My personality it not dependent God. It is the same with or without God. My actions are what are dependent upon God.”
Um no - your actions are dependant on your desires (we are all hedonistic - move toward things that make us feel good, away from things that feel ‘bad’). Your desires are dependant on your security level, (maslow’s hierarchy of needs), and the highest security is self-actualisation - knowing who you are, and being satisfied in that. Based only on the above quote, i say you are at maslow’s level 3 - needing approval from others (in this case a father figure in your deity)

On the arrogance of “many athiests believe you can have morals without god”
Morals / ethics exist with or without deities. Morals are the unwritten rules that bind society. (That is they were unwritten until we started mixing theism with governance.)
My parents didn’t need belief in god to tell me not to bash my little brother with a tonka truck - and it’s this kind of instruction on new sociatal members from a young age that instils ‘morals’.

You then said “What would change is I realize this is it. What would it matter what I do or don’t do. Read the book of eccliastes. When I was 16 I felt the way describes in his writings. Can I help it that is how I feel? See even with God I feel a certain pointlessness to “this life” I am certain with out Him I know how I would feel about things.”

Sorry? You think life needs to have a point? Well in a sense it does - to live. Life feeds on life in order to create more life. (listen to the ‘secret’ track on Tool’s Opiate album).
I think you’ve pretty much hit the one point that drives all religion - fear of death. Ie there’s got to be more to it than this.
Well I can’t answer that - it’s up to you - and if you find that you need a deity to fill that ‘reason for living’, well good for you.
I hope this hasn’t become too much of a ramble.

269

[.

Well, I guess if you’re a dog and can’t control yourself you may not have free will. I on the other hand might smell the pheremones and chose not to go leg humping. I believe that is higher intelligence, to be able to make a decision based on standards, morals, and respect.

My answer to that is…

the arrogance that humans have! Why should we not be examined in a zoological frame work. In this light, to quote a tune “we aint nothing but mammals” and as such are still at the whim of more powerful influences like the NEED TO PROCREATE.

Indeed, modification can occur, but have you ever driven past a car wreck, and even in the knowledge that their may be people dying, you slow, and gawp.
even if you think you dont, you do. because everyone else is. Here, where a “moral higher intelligence” should look away, by 'eck, everyone will be looking none the less.

I have a small understanding of neuroscience, but it is enough to be able to grasp that 99% of behaviours/responses are done without our absolute knowledge.

e.g.

if you are on a push bike, and you start to fall to the left when moving, what do you do to correct it?

Answers please…

270

[quote]haney wrote:
pookie wrote:
haney wrote:
I never said I would kill, only said I would not have respect for others. My actions do not have to be the extreme. I only allow that they are not required to uphold the standard that I have now.

But could you respect yourself if you treated others so badly?

I guessed you missed the part where I said I would only care about my self.

We could argue about dominance even in our current, mostly theist, society. You probably have a boss; you respect policemen or are subject to judges otherwise. You go to church and have a priest/pastor/revenrend/etc guide you. Some elected officials run you city, county, state and country.

True, but think of all the people in power who abuse the weaker, who have no regard for others. As for a pastor part. I only have Jesus who would be considered abover me. Pastor is incidental.

he currently does not exist.

Your “position of power” in society has little to do with raw alpha male dominance, or faith itself.

The point is not that I would be at the top, but that my desires would be motivated to that of self propigation, and nothing else.

No, it would be for the benefit of your genes. nothing else.

Taking the argument from the animal side, even when animals live with a pecking order, they tend to protect their own, especially their youngs. A dog will lay his life on the line for his master anyday. The position of power seems mostly a way to ensure that the strongest and fittest get to reproduce more than the weakest; natural selection at work.

protecting your own(family is a given) think about it though there are plenty of families that are torn apart. Why? because at somepoint no matter what the situation someone thought of their self. So self preservation, and desires are always first in foremost.

No, your genes have the self preservation. this is why, 999/1000 a parent will give up its life for an offspring. However, this is not always the case, such are the variations in non absolutes such as biological psychology.

What I find appaling (that might be a strong word, let’s say I find it odd) is your seemingly inability of seeing the value in morals/ethics simply from reasoning them out yourself. Must someone really point out to you that helping others selflessly is a “good” thing? Or that causing unnecessary suffering is a “bad” thing?

Morals/ethics are a social issue. universally, in atheist/muslim/communist etc groups, the things people would say were virtuous/heinous would be the same. again, not always, and not in context of circumstances, but universal as much as anything can be universal.

I like to think of my self as a realist, and in that I realize that if I stole $500.00 bucks from you, while it might make your life tough for a while in 80 years it won’t matter anymore.

Could you simply be selling yourself short and attributing to God something that, while you may not have arrived at its conclusion by yourself, couldn’t help but see the “rightness” of once you heard of it?

No not really. At 16 I was an active member at Church, and I begin to see the pointlessness in life. Only one thing has given me meaning, and that is what I would consider a personal relationship with God, that has developed since that time.

Histoy has told us, and i have personal experience of this, that religons exploit the vulnerable. My sister is blind (she getting punished for something, some evangelical loony might say) and a group od BO christians focused on this school for the blind. It was a very rough tim for all involved.

now, whilst this may be an isolated case, the poor, poorly educated, ill and desperate are forced into this position. anything that would be seen as assistance to aid their survival would infact do at that time.

I am sure you are going to say some anti-God thing here.

So let me just say I was at the point in my life where either God was going to become real to me, or I was going to walk away forever. I flat out said " you either fix my problem, or I will do this on my own, and you better do it quick".

I battled deep depression for four months, and that was the last night I ever felt that way.

[/quote]

271

[quote]miniross wrote:

My answer to that is…

the arrogance that humans have! Why should we not be examined in a zoological frame work. In this light, to quote a tune “we aint nothing but mammals” and as such are still at the whim of more powerful influences like the NEED TO PROCREATE.

Indeed, modification can occur, but have you ever driven past a car wreck, and even in the knowledge that their may be people dying, you slow, and gawp.
even if you think you dont, you do. because everyone else is. Here, where a “moral higher intelligence” should look away, by 'eck, everyone will be looking none the less.

I have a small understanding of neuroscience, but it is enough to be able to grasp that 99% of behaviours/responses are done without our absolute knowledge.

e.g.

if you are on a push bike, and you start to fall to the left when moving, what do you do to correct it?

Answers please…

[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying, we are creature subject to urges, desires, powerful emotions, etc. I was simply saying that the difference between us and animals is that we can modify our behavior. If you send a bull into a herd of cows in heat he’ll try and breed every single one of them. His urges will drive him to that. He doesn’t think about if he should, or whether it’s right or wrong morally. I think that we’re different, not arrogant, but capable of higher thought. I think that by looking at this thread a person can understand just how well, and on how many plains, we’re capable of thinking on. For many people this is evidence of the human uniqueness of having a soul. For others this is evidence of mans success on the evolutionary scale.

272

mert and pookie,

do we even know for a fact that atoms exist? I’ve heard many people say we have no proof. On the other hand, the way elements and compounds work with atomic theory applied makes alot of sense to me… but is there any hard proof?

273

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
mert and pookie,

do we even know for a fact that atoms exist? I’ve heard many people say we have no proof. On the other hand, the way elements and compounds work with atomic theory applied makes alot of sense to me… but is there any hard proof?[/quote]

have you actually done chemistry/physics/biology/(proper) psychology?

that should answer your question.

274

If god( which god?) created the universe and all we know, then who or what created god? Was God always just there or did he appear out of nothing?

275

I understand what you’re saying, we are creature subject to urges, desires, powerful emotions, etc. I was simply saying that the difference between us and animals is that we can modify our behavior. If you send a bull into a herd of cows in heat he’ll try and breed every single one of them. His urges will drive him to that. He doesn’t think about if he should, or whether it’s right or wrong morally. I think that we’re different, not arrogant, but capable of higher thought. I think that by looking at this thread a person can understand just how well, and on how many plains, we’re capable of thinking on. For many people this is evidence of the human uniqueness of having a soul. For others this is evidence of mans success on the evolutionary scale.[/quote]

OK.

Bull…would not try to breed with all of them. he would not, for example breed with one that was a relative, how doeshe know that. i can answer, but just you think about it.

What gives us “higher thinking” and how does that express itself. communication can be explained because of our large and fluxing social groups (of 50000 years ago, we are no different), large brain, we need coordination of this large body, imagination, planning and excution of plans, as well as counter factual thinking, understanding how an action will have consequences, what they are, what they may mean to others. some of these (tied in with what is known as theory of mind) are also seen in some animals (self recognition etc).

Arrogance is not in a negative, but as an evolutionary posotive…i think i am the king therefore i am the king. this extends to the “it will happen to someone else”, an arrogance in ones abilities as a driver/lover/judge of character.

i could go on, but i think i have answered that point nearly to the extent of my ability.

just 1 last point. the brain is an algorythm computer. all things have an algorythm…language, maths, physics therefore everything. there are more possible connections of synapse than there are particles estimated to exist in the universe. that is an amazing thing to have sitting in your head. a product of countless milenia, and we now spend it on this forum discussing it.

at least we aren’t watching TV.

276

[quote]pbody03 wrote:
If god( which god?) created the universe and all we know, then who or what created god? Was God always just there or did he appear out of nothing? [/quote]

he can do that coz hes god…obviously:)

277

[quote]miniross wrote:

OK.

Bull…would not try to breed with all of them. he would not, for example breed with one that was a relative, how doeshe know that. i can answer, but just you think about it.

just 1 last point. the brain is an algorythm computer. all things have an algorythm…language, maths, physics therefore everything. there are more possible connections of synapse than there are particles estimated to exist in the universe. that is an amazing thing to have sitting in your head. a product of countless milenia, and we now spend it on this forum discussing it.

at least we aren’t watching TV.[/quote]

Actually a bull will try to breed every cow in heat. A bull doesn’t differentiate between them. Whether the breed is successful of not is questionable as the genetics may not allow a pregnancy to go full term, but the bull will still try. Herds continue because one bull is replaced and new genetics are introduced, but it’s still driven by those hormones. Take it from a guy who raises cattle.

I appreciate your information on the brain development and advanced thought processes. I believe that this is probably the thing that most of the believers and non believers would like to hold up as their best evidence. A believer would say that this ability to be more advanced is evidence of a higher power and a chosen people (or species). A non believer would hold this up as evidence of gradual evolution over millions of years. I realize that most people wouldn’t believe in God unless He put in a personal appearance. But I wonder if evolution is the truth, why are humans the most advanced since we’ve all (I mean everything on the planet) has been evolving for technically the same amount of time? Shouldn’t their be fish that show advanced civilization? Haven’t Sharks been around longer than us? What do you think?

278

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
mert and pookie,

Do we even know for a fact that atoms exist? I’ve heard many people say we have no proof. On the other hand, the way elements and compounds work with atomic theory applied makes alot of sense to me… but is there any hard proof?[/quote]

Here is a picture of “molecule man” made by moving atoms together with magnetic fields.

Now it depends on the question. We have seen these effects called atoms, but is a picture of a person proof that they exist? They exist when we take pictures of them.

279

[quote]pbody03 wrote:
If god( which god?) created the universe and all we know, then who or what created god? Was God always just there or did he appear out of nothing? [/quote]

What is time? If you leave out the form of energy called matter, you could do physics without using the variable “time”. Matter causes time.

280

the following site is quite interesting by a man called Ken Ham - i’ve heard him speak before and as i used to study geology it was good to see the different view point from what i learned (but never believed).
Hope it may be of use