For Ye Christian Ones...

[rainjack]

[quote]miniross wrote:
And what, sir, is the problem with being elitest? and for that matter, condecending.

I dont believe that this was aimed at my good self, but we, surely those who are of T are just that. an elite, or we would be mucking in with the fat slobs and their KFC.
[/quote]

Condescension and elitism was the reason we kicked your limey asses 225 years ago. Elitism was the driving force behind the Nazi movement, the KKK, and the ethnic cleansing that goes on today.

if you have no problem labling yourself an elitist, I have no problem throwing you in with the above lot.

[XCelticX]

[quote]haney wrote:
I never said it proved water covered the earth.

I only tried to show you that your statement that it could not happen even if the polar ice caps melted is a serious overstatement.

Marine fossils on Everest show that it is possible for water to have covered the Earth.
[/quote]

You didn’t say that specifically, but for Noah’s Ark to be true water would have to cover the Earth. What would be the point of your statement about Everest if not to prove or suggest that the Noah’s Ark story was true?

The land that is now Mount Everest could have been(and likely way) below sea level millions of years ago at some point. That explains why the fossils are there. In later years, moving techtonic plates pushed that area of land up, hence marine fossils on Mt. Everest.

[XCelticX]

[quote]haney wrote:
I have refuted your statement about their being stories from the Bible being in other cultures, and all you have said is " I am still right in what I said".

Lets see if you are a man of your word.
[/quote]

You didn’t read enough, or you didn’t comprehend what you read. I said others HAVE refuted what I said, to one degree or another. And I did NOT say “I am still right in what I said”. I believe what you said about other cultures having similar stories. What I said was that that still doesn’t prove anything about the story, only that other cultures came up with similar ones, perhaps as a result of that story being told over and over again, while in other places the native peoples may have come up with it all on their own.

[XCelticX]

you did not site Christ rising from the dead in your Opening post. You only said as I quoted you earlier the stories do not appear anywhere else.

Right, I said MANY stories from the Bible aren’t anywhere else, that includes the resurection(sp?).

Not everything would be preserved. Many cultures libraries were destroyed. What remaining evidence do you want?

I would think it would be somewhat impressive that none of the Jewish opposing views of the resurrection differ from the Bible. They were claiming the Body was stolen.

And the Bible claims the body came back to life, spoke to many, and rose into heaven. The Jewish view is opposed to the Bible’s view.

It is easy to determine the Disciples would never have had the courage to steal the body, and had that developed that courage I doubt they would of died for that lie.

I have a feeling you are already decided, and there is no changing your mind.

I am decided, but I still enjoy and benefit from discussions like this.

[Blue75]

This has been an interesting thread to look through and I think you guys have really summed up the sides of this debate. The thing I think is curious is that none of the debate has tried to explain the purpose of God. I mean, if he exhists, what’s the point for us being here, having free agency, being able to sin (is their really a hell or is that an invention to force obedience) or is their a different reason for us being here? I mean if God is really our creator (or Father) is this the experience of being kicked out of the house at age 18 to be on our own and if so what’s the point? On the other hand, if their is no God, afterlife, or whatever, then why does every society known in history have some mystical belief system involving God or Gods. Is it all about power and fear or do people actually have spiritual experiences that provide the seeds for faith and worship? Maybe the problem is understand what kind of a being God is would help since their seems to be very little agreement on that subject as well. As to the historical acurracy of anything written about religion you have to understand most was written by “prophets” after the fact, sometimes a long time afterword. Using the bible as an example, it’s been translated, retranslated, and modified for several langauges for many people. What was originally written could be very different.

[XCelticX]

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
First, he never said it didn’t show that, and scientifically his statement is correct, the fossils show that water could have completely covered land at some point. I think you are making assumptions about the intent at least in this instance.
[/quote]

The fossils on Everest most certainly DO NOT show that water could have covered ALL LAND at one point. It only shows that water covered the land that is now Mt. Everest.

Second, quantum physics actually dilineates between sentient brains and non-sentient form of life in their ability to create irreversibility and collapse the wave function of a system. If Schrodinger (in theory) had to look at the cat for it to be 100% alive or dead, his brain was fundamentally different from the cats because the cats brain could not collaps the wave function of its own system. (Or maybe it could have). In either case quantum physics draws a real line somewhere.

I’m a bit at loss as to what quantum physics has to do with this, but I don’t know much about that subject in the first place. Inform me, if you will.

[XCelticX]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Just more proof that you are not just an atheist, but a bigoted one at that.

You questions serve no purpose other than to make those that agree with you chuckle. You have that right and no one is trying to take that away from you. Just be honest in your smugness.

You think we’re all trailer-dwelling hayseeds that are amazed everytime someone pulls out one of them there fire makers.

Your questions are those of an elitist - condescending. I take exception to that. You are not nearly as smart and witty as you fashion yourself to be. But you probably didn’t need a hayseed to tell you that.

[/quote]

He’s another big annoying condescending question for ya…

Are you mad about these questions because you and no other creationist on Earth can successfully answer them?

[XCelticX]

[quote]bamit wrote:
God has shown himself to you and all of mankind, we rejected him and killed him.
[/quote]

God didn’t show a thing to me or anyone else.

If he did, as you believe, what was it and when did it occur?

Make reference to something that we KNOW happened, instead of ‘it says so in a story in the Bible’.

[pookie]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Just more proof that you are not just an atheist, but a bigoted one at that.[/quote]

Another one. It’s very amusing how you’re all claiming to be tolerant believers who respect other’s people beliefs.

I guess we’re allowed freedom OF religion, as long as we’ve got one? I want freedom FROM religion, but it seems that’s too much to ask for.

You questions serve no purpose other than to make those that agree with you chuckle.

Actually, I was hoping they’d make some of you think… Even better, maybe I’d see some arguments refuted and I’d have to revise one or two of my convictions. That would be cool.

I really hope no one is counting on this for their entertainment.

You have that right and no one is trying to take that away from you. Just be honest in your smugness.

Yeah, yeah. Whatever. I agree with all you want me to be, ok? I’m a smug elitist asshole. A poisonous god-hater. I piss hate in the morning and I sweat smugness from every pore all day long.

Can we cut the ad hominem attacks and actually talk about the questions themselves?

Because, the way it seems to be to me, all smugness aside, is that whenever a question is raised that makes anyone of you uncomfortable; or that would force you to rethink some idea that was repeatedly imposed to you as a child, you bail out.

Let me count the ways: Zeb offered to “begin to convince me of the existence of God”… but couldn’t get over my loving personality. Seems easier to bash me than do justify his beliefs. Must I deduce that “strenght of faith” is lesser than “hatred of pookie”.

Randmam (the hippo guy) would rather I attack him than his faith. Seems that he too cannot really explain why he believes what he does. Or maybe he can, but he prefers not too. Let’s call Pookie some names and accuse him of being intolerant.

Then you, who while dismissing the notion that we could be no more than chemical interactions between few hundred billion neurons, seem to have no better explanation. Lame jokes, yes. Intelligent debate? We’re still waiting.

You think we’re all trailer-dwelling hayseeds that are amazed everytime someone pulls out one of them there fire makers.

Let’s say I can better understand how people like Benny Hinn manage to live such an easy, comfortable life.

Your questions are those of an elitist - condescending.

So? Not liking the “tone” of the questions does not answer them or make them invalid. Why don’t you simply rephrase them in acceptable tolerant terms before answering them. I could then, from example, at learn how to ask properly respectful questions.

I take exception to that.

Duly noted.

You are not nearly as smart and witty as you fashion yourself to be.

Ok. I can’t squat worth a shit either.

But you probably didn’t need a hayseed to tell you that.

I would just like it, if, for ONCE, one of you would dare to answer/debate/discuss/think about/refute/etc. something that’s relevant to the argument. Make an argument or raise a point that’s pertinent to the topic at hand.

It seems that all your faith is worthy of is jokes, word games, insults and personal attacks. Do you really wonder, after such demonstrations, how we might have some trouble taking it seriously and showing proper respect?

[miniross]

[quote]bamit wrote:
If ‘God’ were to show himself, he would have alot of people(including me) who without an more shadow of doubt believed in him. He would have the WORLD worshiping him and loving him. If he loves us so much, enough to die on a cross for us, why the foreplay? Why test our character in the first place, as he apparently knows us before we are even born?

God has shown himself to you and all of mankind, we rejected him and killed him.
[/quote]

WHAT?

[miniross]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
miniross wrote:
And what, sir, is the problem with being elitest? and for that matter, condecending.

I dont believe that this was aimed at my good self, but we, surely those who are of T are just that. an elite, or we would be mucking in with the fat slobs and their KFC.

Condescension and elitism was the reason we kicked your limey asses 225 years ago. Elitism was the driving force behind the Nazi movement, the KKK, and the ethnic cleansing that goes on today.

if you have no problem labling yourself an elitist, I have no problem throwing you in with the above lot.
[/quote]

Woah, easy there little offspring of our sovreign loins.

That, my friend is not what the “NAZI, KKK” etc was about.

Elitist groups are all around, and unless you were, how do you lot in the south say, “a commie bastard” with communual seperation of wealth and resources, the elites will exist. They are part of the natural order.

Get it straight. I take that as an extreme insult and you should bow your head with shame. Anyway, as far as kicking asses goes, i thought we were bad at being nostalgic with wars. you take the buiscuit. what about “we saved your asses in the second world war…”

I am dissapointed you didn’t make that statement.

[miniross]

if you have no problem labling yourself an elitist, I have no problem throwing you in with the above lot.
[/quote]

also, what do you mean by this.

explain like im 5.

[pookie]

[quote]Blue75 wrote:
This has been an interesting thread to look through and I think you guys have really summed up the sides of this debate. The thing I think is curious is that none of the debate has tried to explain the purpose of God.[/quote]

We’re still explaining the smugness of pookie.

I mean, if he exhists, what’s the point for us being here, having free agency, being able to sin (is their really a hell or is that an invention to force obedience) or is their a different reason for us being here? I mean if God is really our creator (or Father) is this the experience of being kicked out of the house at age 18 to be on our own and if so what’s the point?

I’ll pass that one along to my esteemed colleagues from across the divide.

On the other hand, if their is no God, afterlife, or whatever, then why does every society known in history have some mystical belief system involving God or Gods.

Because, man, by his very nature is curious and need to be able to explain what happens around him. When unable to do so with reason, logic and science; he’ll resort to magic, make believe and the supernatural.

You would think that the “One True God” would like to give every soul at least a chance of hearing from him during their lifetimes. Somehow, it seems that having a proliferation of competing religions is a better way. Even when there very similar and claim the same God (Catholics/Protestants, or Shiites/Sunni). How many deaths, wars and atrocities have been commited in the name of God?

Also, the fact that maybe 90% of the planet’s population believes in some form of supernatural beings, does not make them exist.

At one time, most of the population of the earth thought the earth was flat. It wasn’t.

During the middle ages, some zoological compendiums included unicorns, dragons and fairies; but not kangooroos or koalas. That a large number of people believe in something that is wrong, does not make it true.

Is it all about power and fear or do people actually have spiritual experiences that provide the seeds for faith and worship? Maybe the problem is understand what kind of a being God is would help since their seems to be very little agreement on that subject as well.

Religion is of course encouraged by those in power. You’ll accept and endure more suffering and injustice from your rulers if you believe you’ll be rewarded in the next life. Do you think fanatics would send their kids get blown up in suicide attacks if they weren’t convinced that their kids became martyr and were assured of eternal life in heaven?

As to the historical acurracy of anything written about religion you have to understand most was written by “prophets” after the fact, sometimes a long time afterword. Using the bible as an example, it’s been translated, retranslated, and modified for several langauges for many people. What was originally written could be very different.

Not only that, but many secular writings from the past have been in the Church’s stead for a very long time. Comparison between current version of old text and the originals (in the very rare cases where they do still exist and are accessible to scholars) tend to show some “creative editing” done by the church from one version to the next to make sure that the latest doctrines or dogma were included.

[system]

Seriously you guys … are you done? Now all you are doing is taking stabs @ one another. The thread has been beaten nearly to death and hung on a cross. It’s boring. But I do suppose that it will rise up again.

BFG

[Blue75]

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
God didn’t show a thing to me or anyone else.

If he did, as you believe, what was it and when did it occur?

Make reference to something that we KNOW happened, instead of ‘it says so in a story in the Bible’.
[/quote]

OK, God appeared to me and told me all the answers, but swore me to keep them a secret. Sorry guys, I would love to solve this debate for you, but even if I told you what I know you would still argue whether or not I had a vision or if I was just playing with you. If it didn’t happen to you how would you know? Maybe i’m full of shit, and maybe you are too. Religion is a personal experience generally based on intense personal feelings. If you haven’t had it it’s hard to see their perspective. To “prove” that someone has had these feelings and feels a connection to “heaven” is impossible any more than explaining feelings of love, hate, fear, etc. to someone who hasn’t experinced them. Just like a non believer has found satisfaction, happiness, peace, or whatever in “proving” that scientifically God does not exist a believer has found the same feelings in finding God. You’ll never argue someone into believing either way. But keep trying, God told me you would anyhow. Good Luck!

[bamit]

[quote]XCelticX wrote:
bamit wrote:
God has shown himself to you and all of mankind, we rejected him and killed him.

God didn’t show a thing to me or anyone else.

If he did, as you believe, what was it and when did it occur?

Make reference to something that we KNOW happened, instead of ‘it says so in a story in the Bible’.
[/quote]

First off, as others have pointed out, this topic has been discussed on previous threads. However, I do consider it a noble cause so I will reply. The event I was referring to was the life and death of Jesus Christ. I understand that you may not believe in the bible?s accounts on what happened, do you question other historian?s accounts of Christ. I hate to repeat what I have posted elsewhere, but truth is timeless. I was once much like you, I had grown up Christian, but I really never embraced the religion. Then one day something dawned on me, what caused the apostles to continue their mission to spread Christianity after Christ?s death? Some have eluded that lack of education is somewhat responsible for one?s religious beliefs, for me it is quite the contrary. One of the economic principals is that all sane people think on a margin. There must be some incentive to sway one?s mind in a certain direction. If Christ died and did not rise from the dead, why did his followers continue? It would have been much easier for them to just go on about there lives, and forget about the whole ordeal, would it not? I believe they had no tangible incentive, but they must have seen something. I mean all twelve of these men were changed dramatically. They gave up there lives and gladly took on poverty, ridicule, persecution, and many finally paid the ultimate price. Please do not compare what they did to some of modern day suicidal go meet a spaceship in the sky types. Committing Suicide in a painless way does not equate to a fraction of what these men went through. Anyway I pray for you for your condition is a very grave one, I wish you all the best, and may God continue to protect and keep you even if you do not realize it.

Note: I think it would be interesting if some of the medical professionals (ProfX) would let us know if they believe in miracles or not. I had heard from a source that the percentile that do believe is quiet high do to witnessing many unexplainable events while practicing there profession. I do not know if this info. is accurate or not, but it would shed some light on many past post.

[randman]

[quote]pookie wrote:
Randmam (the hippo guy) would rather I attack him than his faith. Seems that he too cannot really explain why he believes what he does. Or maybe he can, but he prefers not too. Let’s call Pookie some names and accuse him of being intolerant.
[/quote]

I can explain why I believe what I do but I choose not to explain it to either you or XCelticX. Why would I? All you’re going to do is attack my faith, logic, etc. Why would I open myself up for that? You’re not going to change you’re beliefs and I’m not going to change mine.

We’re accusing Pookie of being intolerant. The way you say that it’s like you’re not admitting that you have been. Like you’re shocked we’re accusing you of that. Haven’t you been intolerant? Many people on this thread have already pointed out the fact that you have been “mean-spirited” in you trashing of the christian faith. You even admitted to it and said you would tone it down.

For many, including myself, faith in God is very personal matter and for you to belittle it so openly on this forum is simply disrespectful. That’s why I said I’d rather you attack me than my faith. I’m not telling to you not to question it. I’m asking you to please not pour verbal sewage all over it. I don’t know what else I can say.

[miniross]

I mean, if he exhists, what’s the point for us being here, having free agency, being able to sin (is their really a hell or is that an invention to force obedience) or is their a different reason for us being here? I mean if God is really our creator (or Father) is this the experience of being kicked out of the house at age 18 to be on our own and if so what’s the point?

Firstly, what makes you think we hav free will? When you smell that girls hair, those pheromones go straight to your limbic system and hey presto, you have the hang dog horn…

As far as us being here, well, in every pulsing cell is that most simple of answers, your genes. come hell or high water, they want to carry on. That is why we are here, pure and simple.

As far as this last section of that post…i dont understand it.

at all…I have read it 6 times. am i that stupid, or is it nonsense

[miniross]

[quote]randman wrote:
pookie wrote:

1. Randmam (the hippo guy) would rather I attack him than his faith. Seems that he too cannot really explain why he believes what he does. Or maybe he can, but he prefers not too. Let’s call Pookie some names and accuse him of being intolerant.

I can explain why I believe what I do but I choose not to explain it to either you or XCelticX. Why would I? All you’re going to do is attack my faith, logic, etc. Why would I open myself up for that? You’re not going to change you’re beliefs and I’m not going to change mine.

.

2. We’re accusing Pookie of being intolerant. The way you say that it’s like you’re not admitting that you have been. Like you’re shocked we’re accusing you of that. Haven’t you been intolerant? Many people on this thread have already pointed out the fact that you have been “mean-spirited” in you trashing of the christian faith. You even admitted to it and said you would tone it down.

NO, i believe that individuals who dont have these in ground beliefs actually cant believe that in this day and age of discovery, and information to all that people still blindly follow faith in the self same way they did 500 years ago.

For many, including myself, faith in God is very personal matter and for you to belittle it so openly on this forum is simply disrespectful. That’s why I said I’d rather you attack me than my faith. I’m not telling to you not to question it. I’m asking you to please not pour verbal sewage all over it. I don’t know what else I can say. [/quote]

1.Logic has no part in believing in dogma

If people dont want to be “attacked” then dont post. secondly, it is interesting that you ID the 2 (faith/self) seperately as many individuals use this lable (christian/muslim etc) to identify themselves and the 2 are inseperable. Free speech reigns as is your right to reply. It is almost as if this last bastion of “stop bullying me” is pulled out when no other reasonable answer can be generated.

just my opinion, mind.

go at it…Bombs Away!

[miniross]

[quote]BFG wrote:
Seriously you guys … are you done? Now all you are doing is taking stabs @ one another. The thread has been beaten nearly to death and hung on a cross. It’s boring. But I do suppose that it will rise up again.

BFG[/quote]

Its the ever ready bunny. just keeps on a goin’ and goin’.

I think you can see into the future…BFG, are you holy?