@unreal24278 Yes of course I assume that as well, but I ask if there is some evidence for such association like an interventional trial.
Also I never mentioned someone can have 5000ng/dl naturally
No, there’s a small study showcasing higher rates of premature death in men with genetics that harbour high testosterone levels, however the study is highly flawed.
Higher testosterone levels ARE associated with a stronger predispensity for impulsive and/or risky behaviour (hard drug use, risky sexual encounters etc), esp in adolescence… so it’d make sense that perhaps these individuals would induce systemic damage during their lifespans (smoking is also more common amongst this demographic)
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Totally makes sense
Now you lost me. What is linked to meta analysis and rodent models?
No evidence at physiological dose.
There is one paper describing a bodybuilder having a T level of 30.000 ng/dl who run into serious heart problems. He recovered after reducing his dose to typical TRT dose of 125 mg per week.
I believe that just about EVERY associated case of high testosterone levels to heart issues is centered around a body builder.
Do those who do these these case studies realize the physical brutality that a body builder puts him/her self through, and that there are many more factors to the enlarged and overworked heart in body builders other than testosterone?
Dont long distance runners have very similar issues without the use of anabolics?
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“Athletic heart syndrome (AHS) is a non-pathological condition commonly seen in sports medicine in which the human heart is enlarged, and the resting heart rate is lower than normal. The athlete’s heart is associated with physiological remodeling as a consequence of repetitive cardiac loading.”
Yes sir. That’s exactly the point. The heart issues IMO are the direct result of overtaxing the cardiovascular system over the course of years.
Sure, body builders use very high levels of testosterone, but they use that in order to perform MORE work. I believe that this increased work load, not the testosterone directly, is what is largely responsible.
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The notion of testosterone being cardioprotective. So there is a weak/moderately strong body of evidence to suggest physiologic dosages may elict a cardioprotective effect. The evidence is too preliminary to drawl a conclusion
No, a lot of it is due to the high dosages. There is a mechanism for direct myocardial injury instilled from high dose AAS. However you are correct that high level bodybuilding… natural or not, does have a deleterious effect on cardiovascular functioning
I will link literature and explain mechanisms when I have time but at the moment I’m all flooped and yeeted
Athletes heart however isn’t typically associated with the deterioration in cardiac function associated with long term AAS abuse, in the case of athletes heart, whilst cardiac parameters enlarge, the overall functioning/contractile capacity is either improved, maintained or only slightly decreased.
In AAS abuse… cardiac contractile parameters and whatnot are marketedly impacted in a deleterious fashion (dose dependently, genetics etc)… but say… a gram of tren + orals + gh + stimulants etc… no one can get away with using that for more than 5-15 years, you WILL drop…
That being said, extreme distance running appears to induce direct myocardial injury, and thus whilst it is an extreme example, it does appear to induce detrimental change to the myocardium predisposing said demographic to potentially lethal arrhythmia later on in life
Take an athlete with bradycardia, his heart is strong, and this needs to pump less frequently to perform its job of supplying the body with oxygenated blood as it can in theory pump more blood per stroke. Take someone abusing highs dosages of AAS who has developed a dialated cardiomyopathy… (whether one develops DCM appears to be genetic in terms of AAS, the heart has to be damn big in order to meet the criteria for dialated cardiomyopathy…) his heart is enlarged, beating 96 times per minute… you can’t really compare the two
The relationship between T/DHT and CV risk appears to be U shaped
From Borst et al, 2014
Metastudies showed mostly a neutral effect of TRT on CV events
From Gagliana Juca, 2019
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Are you a TRT practitioner? Serious question considering I didn’t know you have patients.
Glad YETI is back posting here.
WEALTH of knowledge and experience.
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No there’s a meta analysis out there indicating the relationship between testosterone levels within the general populace and the prevelance of cardiovascular disease. I’ll send it soon, I’m really busy atm in Europe yeeting around
Then within rodent studies physiologic doses of testosterone appear to elict cardioprotective effects when exposing rats to numerous variables. Will update soon… or not I might forget or not have tim
Should be noted these meta analysis are highly flawed as lifestyle decisions, sociocultural/environmental factors aren’t typically accounted for. However they do provide a weak link of evidence at times
Endocrinologist, but he hasn’t been on here for almost a year (busy lifestyle and whatnot)
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I have AHS, as per echocardiograms. It’s been there, unchanged, since my late 20’s at least, when I actually had low T. I may be an outlier, but I would say it has nothing to do with high t in my case, or with a lot of cardio, as I have never done any large amount of cardio. Just weights and odd objects.
I used to work in engineering for a med device company. Many doctors seem to think they know everything. That particular group seems to confuse correlation and causation at high rates (what was done with the high natty TT and the heart condition). I am in no way saying this about all doctors. Just a pattern I have noticed.
I am getting sceptical when somebody claims that A was NEVER (in bold letters) caused by B.
One of the most important things that I learned during my 20 years of doing science is that the absence of proof is not the same thing as the proof of absence.
But admittedly that’s not applicable to everything in life (that’s what they don’t tell you in the science classes but you learn from wife and kids 
).
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