You could say that but then you have the problem that oxandrolone isn’t as androgenic as testosterone, which is the part that’s responsible for the virilization. Estimates say oxandrolone has one quarter the androgenic strength, making 12 mg as androgenic as 3 mg T. That’s then not 120 times as powerful. But quite a lot.
Also for the anabolic action I would not compare women’s ratio of T to men’s and conclude that muscles therefore respond way more to the AAS. It’s more like the muscles respond quite well, but the side effects creep up when doses get too high. So saying it is like 120 mg of oxandrolone in men is not accurate here either. Because men’s muscles don’t respond proportionally less to AAS because they have more T.
I think you really handled this the right way. No condescension from me. Just saying that it’s not very surprising that you reacted this way. Maybe lower doses are the way to go, baby steps.
I have read similar anecdotes. Assuming the compound is good (which is a leap as there is not enough data on SARMS etc),
if I were an underground “guy” making and distributing these with a penchant for money, I would replace it with a cheap c17α-a compound.
I really think women have compounds like methenolone, stanozolol, oxandrolone… I honestly do not see justification for deviance from these.
If SARMS were not suppressive etc I would hold out some hope, but I just see them as rather pointless.
And just to finish this rant on a tangent, I wish these stupid fucking kids stopped popping SARMS.
And to offer another drug, methenolone could be useful @bunny, but sourcing legitimate primo… I would be more than cautious.
lordgains,
Well i think we don´t agree, i think women respond WAY more than men, that´s why you need little ammounts of roids to build up incredible bodies for the ladies.
Primo would be the obvious next step. Anadrol has crazy high rates of water retention and that’s not what you’re looking for. Primo was actually studied in women, in a clinical setting, and we have real data we can examine. The short story is women can handle a lot more of it than any other steroid without virilization. Obviously ymmv, but low dose primo, either acetate as an oral or enanthate as a depot would be what I would consider next.
If you mean relative it could be but not absolute. If that was the case, there would be female bodybuilders as big as Coleman. So a female might get a stronger response in proportion to her body but not more than a man. Remember that these small doses put the female at or above natural male levels.
No. The reason is that women don’t have nearly any AAS in their body (they build muscle more through growth factors it seems) and start with less muscle to begin with. That’s why small amounts make a big difference. But they don’t build “incredible bodies” in relation to men if we are looking from a pure muscle standpoint. An average dude who never took any steroids and just eats and trains right will carry more muscle than nearly any female even with good genetics and on roids (besides the ladies with the best genetics). A female body just doesn’t rely solely on how much muscle it carries to look good. Every woman knows it’s also about hip to waist ratios, leanness and so on. Women can build superb figures but that’s not the point here.
Let’s think your hypothesis through:
A female has 10x (even less) less testosterone than a man.
A female is therefore 10x as responsive to AAS as a man.
A female takes 40 mg per day of oxandrolone for 6 weeks.
This is equivalent to 400 mg of oxandrolone in a man.
A female gains how much muscle? 2 lbs? 10 lbs?
How much would she have to gain?
If what you said is true this dose would be like 2800 mg of oxandrolone a week for a man. If a man gains 2-6 lbs on 280 mg per week for 8 weeks, that female would have to gain way more to justify your argument. Do you think that’s reasonable?
It’s a shame there’s no good studies on this. There would be enough people willing to participate I think. I mean there are enough chicks and dudes on the sauce.
look i don´t want to get into your numbers, if you read up (your first answer to me) you wrote that i said that a woman could get 120 times more…(YOU: “That’s then not 120 times as powerful.”)
i´m simply saying that if you give 40 mg of Anavar to a woman and the same to a man the woman will have better gains than the man. Therefore I say that women RESPOND WAY MORE.
If you give a woman 100 mg a week of test her gains will be much higher than a guy. A woman will have muscles all over, a man hardly…
Wait wait my man. I was talking specifically about androgenicity. Anavar is less androgenic than testosterone. Simple as that. That’s why women take it.
That is false. How do you measure “muscles all over”?
100 mg put an average man circa at average T levels. If he trains and eats right, he has muscles all over. If a woman gets 100 mg and trains and eats right, she will have muscles all over but not as much as the guy as her capacity is (very likely) lower. If both don’t train at all, then the women will likely gain a few pounds of muscle in the beginning but will likely not end up where the guy is given same hight and equivalent body fat.
Ok this ends here. I made my point. Don’t want to derail the thread too much.
@ironbunny if you want to read one of the studies on methenolone (Primo), they are old, many in German, many not accessible. I found one as a pdf in English:
It’s usually used this way if the individual taking it is female.
More androgenic than oxandrolone on a mg/mg basis. Injectable is riskier than oral. With methenolone acetate you can quickly pull the drug if virilization becomes apparent due to the short HL associated. With methenolone enanthate you’re looking at a few weeks + clearance time.
Primo tends to be commonly faked. Common substances sold as primo are
underdosed testosterone
drostanolone
boldenone
Drostanolone, like methenolone was synthesised to be trialled/used on women with ER + carcinoma of the breast. I even have some old books looking at the pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics of various drugs that talk about drostanolone as a treatment for breast cancer. However drostanolone is considerably more androgenic than methenolone and would probably induce marketed virilization.
That’s excellent information, thank you @unreal24278! My source is an anti-aging clinic that goes through a compounding pharmacy, so I am able to get whatever I’d like. I’m scared to take anything injectable since it takes so long to clear the system, so I think orals is the best way to go. What’s a typical dose for a female?
I don’t understand how the androgenic levels (I’m sure there’s a better word) are measured. It was my understanding that Winny is more androgenic than Anavar, but I had a great experience with Winny but not so much Anavar. Does the result just vary from person to person?
A/A (anabolic/androgenic ratios) are measured via the penchant for a compound to promote skeletal muscle hypertrophy (anabolic) vs prostatic hypertrophy (androgenic)… In rats … And women don’t have a prostate.
Test is
hypertrophy in soleus/levator ani muscle in rats
Vs
prostate growth
Relative to testosterone (being 100/100). These ratios on paper/rodents typically don’t fully correlate to human subjects.
You aren’t going to get a script for primo through an anti-aging clinic.
I don’t feel comfortable giving out advice regarding dosages.
You can probs get primobolan acetate in injectable formulation. But I’ve heard it’s very painful to inject, as the ester is so short it’d be relatively quick to clear.
Oral primo acetate would be no more than 25mg/d. It’s bioavailability is really low, so while that dose sounds high in comparison to something like anavar or winstrol it is not. The reason oral primo is rarely used is because it is not cost effective for a male user. Injectable primo cycles usually start at 600/w. To get the equivalent oral dose you’d need grams every week. It’s cost prohibitive. But it’s a good option for females because it’s extremely side effect friendly.
I want to address something that was said twice now and needs to be corrected. Primo is often faked has no business in a conversation in 2021. It’s not 2003 anymore. I can name you nine vendors off the top of my head who sell primo that is tested and proven to be legitimate. No source that’s worth buying from sells fake primo. Not a single one. Yes, Ben’s Bathtub Chinese Chemical Lab, Inc sells fake primo. He also sells fake EQ, fake tren, fake var, and underdosed test. If you’re buying from Ben in the first place you 100% deserve to get ripped off. Nobody who spends even a few minutes doing research has bought fake primo in years. If Bunny wanted legit primo ace tablets, made in a GMP facility, she could find them with half an hours worth of research. Any of you (in the US) can hop on your proton mail account and send off an order and within five days have tested, verified primo in your mailbox. The ‘primo is faked’ meme needs to die. Hell, I can place an order and within a month have enough raw primo to turn Caitlyn back to Bruce.
There is a community in Aus that sends gear from various labs out for HPLC analysis. I don’t remember the exact statistics, but something like 2 out of 8 primo samples weren’t primo.
All samples were acquired from purportedly reputable vendors.
When I go back to the USA (probs in a couple years time) I’d like to attend one of these clinics. Perhaps procure a little something to take back home and/or perhaps use overseas.
Primo and Mast have low androgenic ratings, but they are pretty near the worst for male pattern baldness. As a woman there is more to worry about (deepening of the voice, body hair, clit enlargement, etc), but as man, I don’t think they make much sense to use if going for low androgenic effects. I don’t care if I get acne on cycle from the higher androgenic test, but I sure do care if I get MPB from mast or primo.
I guess what I am getting at is that these compounds are looked at in an unfair light because of their low androgenic rating. I don’t care about that, if they make me shed. Test may be seen as dirty because of it’s higher androgenic rating, but if the hair is more loyal on that, then I see it as a better compound (not for women though). Just something I have been thinking about with how much primo gets praised.