Im planning on starting my first cycle in about a month and want to get all the input i can.
Height : 6’1
Weight : 212 (roughly 8-10%bf)
Age: 26
Training 4 years
Cycle :
Sustanon 250mg 2x/wk for 12 weeks- So 500mg/wk total one injection monday morning the other thurs night
PCT: *(starting 3wks after last inject due to the half life of sustanon)
Clomid 50 - daily for weeks 16 - 18(3 weeks after last injection)
Nolva 40 - daily for weeks 16 - 18(3 weeks after last injection)
*I have HCG as well but i am very confused as to when to start taking it or if i should at all. I have heard it will get your body to bounce back faster when combined with nolva and cloimd. As well as help with keeping gains. There is just so much conflicting info
Other sups:
Animal Pak -daily
Animal Omega - daily
Liv 52 - daily
Questions:
Is my PCT Ok as far as the clomid and nolva dosing?
IF… I should use the HCG when should i start it? During the cycle? After? Or from weeks 12 on?
Is 250iu of HCG a week enough if i decide to use it?
Should i be taking creatine as well on this cycle?
Good job making a nice clear post with all the necessary info.
About the cycle itself. Injecting more often is desirable. Many people do 2x per week but EOD dosing is optimal.
PCT: I think using both SERMs is overkill. 40mg/d of nolvadex for a week then 20mg/d for the next three weeks is my recommendation.
hCG: If you have it, use it. Use it during the cycle. Start it a couple weeks in to the cycle. Stop it before you start PCT. Stopping it right around the last injection should be simple enough. 250iu 2x per week is fine. More is not better with this drug.
Creatine is fine. Any normal supps are fine. Liver support is a waste of money.
And for whatever goals you have with this cycle the diet you follow is most important. Dont be afraid to really push the protein intake high.
YEp, first 2 cycles I had were Sust and I recall the 2nd one being kinda lame because I refused to inject EOD. Now that I am about to start my 3rd round I have realized that doing every other day (however lowering the dose to fit within my plan) will get more optimal results ie. .5mL EOD rather than 1mL E4D. This will dramatically improve the balance in your blood.
So would it be a good idea to start HCG roughly week 6 then? And run it untill my last injection? then wait 3 weeks and start novla 40/20/20 for 3 weeks?
Or
should i start hcg around week 6 and continue right up until week 14 and stop HCG about a week before i start the nolva?
[quote]jamn454 wrote:
YEp, first 2 cycles I had were Sust and I recall the 2nd one being kinda lame because I refused to inject EOD. Now that I am about to start my 3rd round I have realized that doing every other day (however lowering the dose to fit within my plan) will get more optimal results ie. .5mL EOD rather than 1mL E4D. This will dramatically improve the balance in your blood. [/quote]
I guess if its going to be that dramatic of a difference i will do .5ml eod then. I’ll have to get over being pin shy pretty quick though. so im going to just literally inject .5ml : mon wed fri sunday…then next inject tues thurs sat mon …
look at my only other post to date and see the direction that I was encouraged to go into…also look at the entire sticky on the cover made by furious george for newbies or first cycles…good stuff in there. That will give you a more thorough idea for proper instruction. You could use a look at the AI and SERM sticky too.
[quote]RSNJ wrote:
I guess if its going to be that dramatic of a difference i will do .5ml eod then. I’ll have to get over being pin shy pretty quick though. so im going to just literally inject .5ml : mon wed fri sunday…then next inject tues thurs sat mon …[/quote]
Its called Belonephobia and its very common. Most of us had it before our first self shot; most of us got over it after that very first shot. Good Luck Im sure you’ll be fine.
I havent seen anyone touch on this one yet-HCG. Starting it week 6 would work, but the idea is to keep the balls full, not allowing them to shrink down.
I think it would be better to start the HCG around week 4. Full shutdown begins around three weeks I believe. Then, like Bonez suggests, run it 2x week until last sus injection. Im sure it would be fine to run it for another week longer, if thats what you would like.
Ive read of alot of guys using HCG, when they begin to notice their little buddies are getting little. So in that case, if you notice your guys are biginning to hide after week 3 or 4 that would be when to start HCG. If they dont hide until week 5 or 6, then wait til then to use it. everyone’s different
I strongly agree Saps-Did not try to make it sound as if the smaller size “meant youre shut down”. My size didnt go down until like week 9 or 10. Ive just READ that some just begin HCG when they visually notice size difference. *NOTE: I have never used HCG myself.
Yeah I think if we are talking about best practices it is to commence hcg soon after commencing your cycle e.g. week 2. I have used HCG myself and while I dont shrink much without it I also didnt have swollen golf balls in my sack on it either. I know some guys are concerned about the cosmetic benefit of growing balls if they shrink but its important to remember thats at best a secondary reason for hcg usage.
[quote]DaJa wrote:
I strongly agree Saps-Did not try to make it sound as if the smaller size “meant youre shut down”. My size didnt go down until like week 9 or 10. Ive just READ that some just begin HCG when they visually notice size difference. *NOTE: I have never used HCG myself.[/quote]\
Okay well it seems like week 3 would be a good place to start then. It was my understanding that shrinkage doesn’t mean full shut down. But…By taking HCG you would keep normal size throughout your cycle which would make the bounce back to normal test production on novla quicker during pct? Which could also technically help you to keep more gains?
Or am i way off base?
[quote]DaJa wrote:
I strongly agree Saps-Did not try to make it sound as if the smaller size “meant youre shut down”. My size didnt go down until like week 9 or 10. Ive just READ that some just begin HCG when they visually notice size difference. *NOTE: I have never used HCG myself.[/quote]
Okay well it seems like week 3 would be a good place to start then. It was my understanding that shrinkage doesn’t mean full shut down. But…By taking HCG you would keep normal size throughout your cycle which would make the bounce back to normal test production on novla quicker during pct? Which could also technically help you to keep more gains?
Or am i way off base?
Yeah thats kinda what I tried to address above. HCG makes your testes pump natty test. It does not matter about how big or small your balls are. So its not the normal size you keep which makes recovery more efficient. Its the fact that your balls havent been dormant for 8-12 weeks or whatever you cycle duration is.
But again you should come off the hcg once you wanna begin recovery not only so you dont rely on the hcg for your test production but also because the hcg inhibits the hypothalamus and pituitary
[quote]saps wrote:
Yeah thats kinda what I tried to address above. HCG makes your testes pump natty test. It does not matter about how big or small your balls are. So its not the normal size you keep which makes recovery more efficient. Its the fact that your balls havent been dormant for 8-12 weeks or whatever you cycle duration is. But again you should come off the hcg once you wanna begin recovery not only so you dont rely on the hcg for your test production but also because the hcg inhibits the hypothalamus and pituitary[/quote]
Gotcha so it wouldnt be harmful to run 250 iu 2x/wk for say 9 weeks or so ( weeks 3 - 13)?
Also is 12 weeks a bit excessive for this cycle should I shorten it down to 8-10 /weeks for my first run at things? Or is 12 where i should be at?
Yeah if you are running 12 weeks I’d do weeks 3-12.
Whether 12 weeks is excessive is an opinion. You can do 8 or 10 weeks. All depends on you. Many gravitate towards shorter cycles [say 8 vs 12 weeks] in hopes of easier recovery. The key for recovery is just getting it right. If you use your hcg properly on cycle.
If you manage your estrogen on cycle and coming off and if do either a test taper or a SERM PCT the right way recovery should be simple. I have done 8 weeks cycles and 16 weeks cycles and the recovery for me was mostly the same outside of duration.
Using HCG during your cycle while you are using Sust is not sensible. You should use it at the end of your cycle. The body’s hormone production is based on a series of feedback loops. The reason your own production shuts down is because the high dose of T from the sust starts a negative feedback loop to turn off the body’s own production. HCG stimulates the leydig cells in the testes to start producing T again. But the exogenous T will counteract that. End result, you will get a small kick and then nothing. Your nuts are going to shut down on any cycle that includes high dose androgens. There isn’t a product on the market that can change that. You can use it as a bridge say 6wks on sust, 2-6wk bridge with HCG/clomid then 6wks on sust if you have particular issues about staying on too long but using HCG while your exogenous T levels are high makes no sense.
In addition, the LH receptors for HCG are very sensitive and shut down pretty quickly so using it on cycle or for more than a couple of weeks will not do much for you and, most importantly, the LH receptors will become desensitised so that when you want to use the HCG it will not work as well.
A fairly common PCT protocol from Dave Palumbo, starting from a few days after your last injection. Aridimex is a better bet than Nolvadex because Nolvadex only binds with the estrogen receptors rather than preventing estrogen production. You can drop the Aridimex if you have lipid issues because it has been shown to increase LDL to HDL but it will help.
Sooo…you are saying taking the PCT out??? Because there definitely needs to be at least a 2 week gap between the last inject of gear prior to the first week of PCT. Not sure if your example is not descript enough or if you are just slightly misinformed. Also, 4000 iU of hCG/ week??? No, not hardly. Initiator, please read the sticky on SERMS and AIs also the one on PCT. Make sure you verify all of the info you collect through several sources prior to attempt at use.