First Cycle @ 21 Years Old, Opinion Please

Pharma
21

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
Of course, thanks, I will, but this conversation has helped me a lot since everyone is different i cannot apply stuff i read from people who is 40 years old exactly to me…So thats the reason i ask…
And i will keep reading as i know i have a lot more to learn, but this is a good start to focus on what i want…

I had things clear until i went to my doc as he said things that not always are the same that are beeing said here…

I will change my diet to high carb, Increase weight considerably until I reach 90 Kg minimum and after the summer and a lot more reading i will post a new thread with a structured cycle. Im sory about my hurry ive always been very passionate and unpatient when it comes to do something but i know i have to wait and you posts have been very helpful in this moment…So really i have to be grateful about your time dedicated to my knowledge!. Thanks a lot, DOHCrazy.
[/quote]

You missed one of the most important things I said:

I’ve always taken advice from guys bigger, stronger, and more educated on the subject than me. Neither my General Practitioner nor my Endocrinologist are any of those.

22

People within the medical community typically seem to be very biased against the use of AAS. The main reason I feel that way is because it seems that many people who (aside from bodybuilding/vanity/athletic performance purposes) would greatly benefit from AAS but have a hell of a time getting prescriptions. It often almost seems taboo to encourage use even when AAS would help somebody with a legitimate medical condition.

Having someone, even a doctor, hand you a pre-made cycle layout is usually not a good idea. I’m sure elite athletes, bodybuilders, and even celebrities do have people design cycles for them but that is a whole different story. You should do enough research and be knowledgeable enough to design your own cycle. You should be able to decide how long it is going to be and why, which AAS at what dosages and why, and which ancillaries at what dosages and why. Then, once you are that far along and feel you have a solid cycle planned out, you can post your cycle here to be critiqued. We are lucky enough to have some very knowledgeable people here who are willing to offer up great advice. The only time you see people get chewed up is when it is obvious that they have not done their share of research. Otherwise people here tend to be helpful.

You seem like you’re smart and off to a good start with your research. Just keep it up. Invest at least a few hours a week into research and you’ll be amazed how much you’ll know a few months from now. Just in this forum alone there is a huge archive of information at your fingertips.

23

true…well it is good to know my doctors opinion, even if I dont really follow exactly what he says…but im still happy about his reaction as he supported the idea of using gear and he is the one who will check my bloodwork during and after cycle in order to have things clear and out of risk… Now i can find help from you guys and maybe even he ends up learning a little bit about this stuff.

24

You know…it is really confusing because there are alot of websites(trustable) and some of the even recommend stacking Anavar and Winny…Others say Anavar is not going to shoot you down. I know both of this statements are false but where can i split reality from invention?

Is there any other website out there like T-Nation where stacking and use of roids is well and clearly explained?
I dont want the easy way of learining but i just dont want to learn the wrong things!

What about a milder anabolic cycle of promobolan/Anavar/Proviron, without Test E for first cycle? As my goal is not getting big in a hurry maybe starting with light stuff is good. Thats what a 5 hours research on many many websites made me think…maybe now im completly out of the way again. Would appreciate some advice.

Thanks again

25

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
Is there any other website out there like T-Nation where stacking and use of roids is well and clearly explained?
I dont want the easy way of learining but i just dont want to learn the wrong things![/quote]

But even within a forum you have different opinions. You have to eventually decide what is right based on the available information. For example, some people advocate different methods of PCT. I doubt there are many other forums that have members with the same amount of experience and knowledge.

I have never done a cycle, so by all means ignore my advice, but I would suggest looking at what guys like Bill Roberts, BBB, Brook etc. recommend, and then coming to your own conclusions.

26

Very true. There are many places to get your information: books, peer-reviewed research, forums, experienced users, etc. Get your information from as many places as possible. If you look hard enough you can probably find conflicting viewpoints on just about anything. But, as time goes on, you will be able to come to your own conclusions. You will also become better at sifting through all the BS, which the internet is packed with.

I’m pretty new to this forum but from what I’ve seen the users Rational Gaze mentioned all seem extremely knowledgeable. This forum also seems to have a high ratio of intelligent, knowledgeable posters to idiots. The idiots that do come around usually get chewed up by the board vets. Other forums you might not be so lucky, as they are often infested with people who are just parroting crap they read from any random place and have no idea what they’re talking about.

27

most people round here are gonna tell you that test should be the backbone of “Most” cycles even though from looking at your picture you have not reached your genetic limit (i know that dont mean shit to you and your gonna probably do gear anyway), a test only cycle would do you fine JMO though am sure some of the more experienced guys can give you a bit more help.

28

Thanks for the reply guys, Ive been reading a lot since the last post (Downloaded the Anabolics 2009 book, pretty good by the way) and Ive decided i will wait a little bit more before doing steroids.

As Kerley said, Ive not reached my genetic limit. I will try to put on more weight naturally and then I will come back with new pictures for you guys to give your opinion.
And maybe with a new post with my personalized cycle.
Thanks again.

29

[quote]Pilosox wrote:
Thanks for the reply guys, Ive been reading a lot since the last post (Downloaded the Anabolics 2009 book, pretty good by the way) and Ive decided i will wait a little bit more before doing steroids.

As Kerley said, Ive not reached my genetic limit. I will try to put on more weight naturally and then I will come back with new pictures for you guys to give your opinion.
And maybe with a new post with my personalized cycle.
Thanks again.
[/quote]

Good choice.

Also, you may want to start eating. I don’t mean eating in the sense that you’re eating now, but eating like you’ve never eatin’ before. It’s hard to eat that many clean calories, don’t be scared of milk, burgers, ice cream. With your body type, the very small amount of fat you might gain you will be able to easily lose.

30

are you sure? i usually try to stick to healthy foods with good fats but i eat a lot of everything, like a kilo of meat daily, 5 eggs, 5 egg whites, brown rice and spaghetti, fruit in the morning, salad with salmon and olive oil in the evening, etc…should i start eating crap too in order to gain muscle?(would this really help?)

thank you in advance.

31

I realize you eat healthy, and your pictures show it.

I eat healthy most of the time too, don’t get me wrong. I am a former fat boy (my pictures are in the T-cell.) I don’t eat things like candy and donuts, but I will admit to using things like whole milk, whole eggs, and sauces on a regular basis.

On top of that, I don’t mind eating out or eating fast-food once or twice a week. I make good choices, like not drinking soda and not eating french fries, but burgers and wings are all on my menu.

If I can do it as a former fat boy, you can do it as a skinny guy. You have to realize how easy it will be for your body type to lose any fat you accumulate, which isn’t going to happen over night anyways.

The first step for you would be to put down the egg whites and eat the whole egg. :wink:

The ‘crap’ food isn’t going to help you in the sense that it is nutritionally ‘better,’ but it will help you get in calories quicker and easier. I’m at about 4700 calories a day right now, and eating mostly healthy like I am now, it is a task in itself to eat that much food every day.

32

especially at a young age…don’t worry if your calories aren’t perfect. The way i broke over most of my barriersin my 20’s was simple. 4 quarts of whole chocalate milk a day plus 3 whole food meals. almost no supplements at all except some creatine and basic vitamins. each quart of milk is about 900 calories so theres 3600 and you haven’t even began to eat yet. its not nearly as hard as it sounds start consuming early in the day and pace your intake throughout. I would never be able to maintain 250-260 and lean now if i had not gotten to 300 and “not so lean” before.

33

[quote]morepain wrote:
especially at a young age…don’t worry if your calories aren’t perfect. The way i broke over most of my barriersin my 20’s was simple. 4 quarts of whole chocalate milk a day plus 3 whole food meals. almost no supplements at all except some creatine and basic vitamins. each quart of milk is about 900 calories so theres 3600 and you haven’t even began to eat yet. its not nearly as hard as it sounds start consuming early in the day and pace your intake throughout. I would never be able to maintain 250-260 and lean now if i had not gotten to 300 and “not so lean” before. [/quote]

So true, I did a gallon a day for about 8 months.

I’m so thankful that I’m not as hard headed about how simple this is as most of these kids. The only thing I think is hard about this is how much time it takes.

34

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
morepain wrote:
especially at a young age…don’t worry if your calories aren’t perfect. The way i broke over most of my barriersin my 20’s was simple. 4 quarts of whole chocalate milk a day plus 3 whole food meals. almost no supplements at all except some creatine and basic vitamins. each quart of milk is about 900 calories so theres 3600 and you haven’t even began to eat yet. its not nearly as hard as it sounds start consuming early in the day and pace your intake throughout. I would never be able to maintain 250-260 and lean now if i had not gotten to 300 and “not so lean” before.

So true, I did a gallon a day for about 8 months.

I’m so thankful that I’m not as hard headed about how simple this is as most of these kids. The only thing I think is hard about this is how much time it takes.
[/quote]

It seems to me that what you guys are saying is that we have to accept that we have to sacrifice our abs during the bulking stage. And I think I have accepted that (though it is difficult to accept). And I know this is subjective but how much fat is acceptable? I don’t know what my bf% is exactly - I took some measurements and estimated it around 15-20%. I stood on a friend’s scale recently that supposedly estimates it based on conductance through your feet (or something like that??) and it spat out 30%!!! But I really don’t see how it’s possible that I could be 30% bf.

Anyway, morepain, when you got up to 300 and then cut down to 240-260, what was your bf% at 300? Did you have a belly? Do you have a picture of yourself at 300 just so I can get an idea of what is “normal”?

35

[quote]DieSucka wrote:
DOHCrazy wrote:
morepain wrote:
especially at a young age…don’t worry if your calories aren’t perfect. The way i broke over most of my barriersin my 20’s was simple. 4 quarts of whole chocalate milk a day plus 3 whole food meals. almost no supplements at all except some creatine and basic vitamins. each quart of milk is about 900 calories so theres 3600 and you haven’t even began to eat yet. its not nearly as hard as it sounds start consuming early in the day and pace your intake throughout. I would never be able to maintain 250-260 and lean now if i had not gotten to 300 and “not so lean” before.

So true, I did a gallon a day for about 8 months.

I’m so thankful that I’m not as hard headed about how simple this is as most of these kids. The only thing I think is hard about this is how much time it takes.

It seems to me that what you guys are saying is that we have to accept that we have to sacrifice our abs during the bulking stage. And I think I have accepted that (though it is difficult to accept). And I know this is subjective but how much fat is acceptable? I don’t know what my bf% is exactly - I took some measurements and estimated it around 15-20%. I stood on a friend’s scale recently that supposedly estimates it based on conductance through your feet (or something like that??) and it spat out 30%!!! But I really don’t see how it’s possible that I could be 30% bf.

Anyway, morepain, when you got up to 300 and then cut down to 240-260, what was your bf% at 300? Did you have a belly? Do you have a picture of yourself at 300 just so I can get an idea of what is “normal”?[/quote]

You don’t ‘have to’ sacrifice your abs, it just makes the journey to heavier weights much quicker and easier. I’m all about doing things the easiest way possible.

I think the acceptable number is the number where you can still get girls to have sex with you. The bigger my muscles get, even without abs, the easier it is for me.

My pictures in the T-cell show me about about 18% body fat. I do not have a gut, and in a shirt just look like a big strong guy. I am not uncomfortable taking my shirt off in public or for a girl, and I know that one day I will have a nice dry look for everyone to see. It sucks that this game takes so much time, but the super-clean-slow-bulk just drags out the process even longer, unless you have great genetics.

I have one of those body fat scales, and it says I’m like 32%. Of course that isn’t correct. In my opinion, the only accurate way to measure body fat is with a Bod-Pod or similar device.

36

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
I think the acceptable number is the number where you can still get girls to have sex with you.
[/quote]

You fucking crack me up man. That’s an awesome quote.

37

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
DieSucka wrote:
DOHCrazy wrote:
morepain wrote:
especially at a young age…don’t worry if your calories aren’t perfect. The way i broke over most of my barriersin my 20’s was simple. 4 quarts of whole chocalate milk a day plus 3 whole food meals. almost no supplements at all except some creatine and basic vitamins. each quart of milk is about 900 calories so theres 3600 and you haven’t even began to eat yet. its not nearly as hard as it sounds start consuming early in the day and pace your intake throughout. I would never be able to maintain 250-260 and lean now if i had not gotten to 300 and “not so lean” before.

So true, I did a gallon a day for about 8 months.

I’m so thankful that I’m not as hard headed about how simple this is as most of these kids. The only thing I think is hard about this is how much time it takes.

It seems to me that what you guys are saying is that we have to accept that we have to sacrifice our abs during the bulking stage. And I think I have accepted that (though it is difficult to accept). And I know this is subjective but how much fat is acceptable? I don’t know what my bf% is exactly - I took some measurements and estimated it around 15-20%. I stood on a friend’s scale recently that supposedly estimates it based on conductance through your feet (or something like that??) and it spat out 30%!!! But I really don’t see how it’s possible that I could be 30% bf.

Anyway, morepain, when you got up to 300 and then cut down to 240-260, what was your bf% at 300? Did you have a belly? Do you have a picture of yourself at 300 just so I can get an idea of what is “normal”?

You don’t ‘have to’ sacrifice your abs, it just makes the journey to heavier weights much quicker and easier. I’m all about doing things the easiest way possible.

I think the acceptable number is the number where you can still get girls to have sex with you. The bigger my muscles get, even without abs, the easier it is for me.

My pictures in the T-cell show me about about 18% body fat. I do not have a gut, and in a shirt just look like a big strong guy. I am not uncomfortable taking my shirt off in public or for a girl, and I know that one day I will have a nice dry look for everyone to see. It sucks that this game takes so much time, but the super-clean-slow-bulk just drags out the process even longer, unless you have great genetics.

I have one of those body fat scales, and it says I’m like 32%. Of course that isn’t correct. In my opinion, the only accurate way to measure body fat is with a Bod-Pod or similar device.
[/quote]

By the way - thanks - it’s 100% clear now. I have been both heavy while bulking and light(er) & lean and my WIFE (which I can get to have sex with me occasionally but unfortunately not frequently enough) actually prefers me heavier with some fat rather than light and ripped so it seems you are right. Of course, heavy and ripped would be nice but hopefully it will come in time as you have pointed out. Anyway, thanks for your concise answer/opinion.

38

[quote]DieSucka wrote:
DOHCrazy wrote:
morepain wrote:
especially at a young age…don’t worry if your calories aren’t perfect. The way i broke over most of my barriersin my 20’s was simple. 4 quarts of whole chocalate milk a day plus 3 whole food meals. almost no supplements at all except some creatine and basic vitamins. each quart of milk is about 900 calories so theres 3600 and you haven’t even began to eat yet. its not nearly as hard as it sounds start consuming early in the day and pace your intake throughout. I would never be able to maintain 250-260 and lean now if i had not gotten to 300 and “not so lean” before.

So true, I did a gallon a day for about 8 months.

I’m so thankful that I’m not as hard headed about how simple this is as most of these kids. The only thing I think is hard about this is how much time it takes.

It seems to me that what you guys are saying is that we have to accept that we have to sacrifice our abs during the bulking stage. And I think I have accepted that (though it is difficult to accept). And I know this is subjective but how much fat is acceptable? I don’t know what my bf% is exactly - I took some measurements and estimated it around 15-20%. I stood on a friend’s scale recently that supposedly estimates it based on conductance through your feet (or something like that??) and it spat out 30%!!! But I really don’t see how it’s possible that I could be 30% bf.

Anyway, morepain, when you got up to 300 and then cut down to 240-260, what was your bf% at 300? Did you have a belly? Do you have a picture of yourself at 300 just so I can get an idea of what is “normal”?[/quote]

those electrical impendance scales are crap…don’t sweat that. For me it wasn’t like a bulk/cut. it was over a period of years. I stayed around 300 for probably 8-10 years and then just decided it was time to lean out some. I wouldn’t say i was fat never have been fat, but my belly always protruded because i was constantly eating large amounts of food which in and of itself starts to cause abdominal distention. i look and feel much better now, point being had i not been that big for that long there is no way i could easily maintain my condition now. I feel light and agile at 260, sounds starnge i guess but your body adapts to a weight over time, and just resets for lack of a better term. My basic rule of thumb is overshoot your desired final weight by 25-35 pounds, stay there for at least a year, then settle back into a more comfortable weight. Not exactly standard protocol, but for long term ability to maintain a decent size it can’t be beat. Too many guys think to themselves “i want to be 225lbs” so they get to like 230 and then they think they have achieved their goal. Once you reduce doses or go off cycle or have a bad period of eating it disappears, becasue you never held it long enough. Same guy decides “i want to be 225lbs in ggod shape” he bulks to 250lbs and stays there for a year even though it is a struggle for him. In time his body accepts theat this is his new size and it becomes not quite so difficult. At that point he can relax a bit with anabolics/massive eating/etc…and his weight will probably dial in to a nice lean 225-230lbs. of course this is all arbitrary and just based on what i have seen over many years.

39

[quote]morepain wrote:

those electrical impendance scales are crap…don’t sweat that. For me it wasn’t like a bulk/cut. it was over a period of years. I stayed around 300 for probably 8-10 years and then just decided it was time to lean out some. I wouldn’t say i was fat never have been fat, but my belly always protruded because i was constantly eating large amounts of food which in and of itself starts to cause abdominal distention. i look and feel much better now, point being had i not been that big for that long there is no way i could easily maintain my condition now. I feel light and agile at 260, sounds starnge i guess but your body adapts to a weight over time, and just resets for lack of a better term. My basic rule of thumb is overshoot your desired final weight by 25-35 pounds, stay there for at least a year, then settle back into a more comfortable weight. Not exactly standard protocol, but for long term ability to maintain a decent size it can’t be beat. Too many guys think to themselves “i want to be 225lbs” so they get to like 230 and then they think they have achieved their goal. Once you reduce doses or go off cycle or have a bad period of eating it disappears, becasue you never held it long enough. Same guy decides “i want to be 225lbs in ggod shape” he bulks to 250lbs and stays there for a year even though it is a struggle for him. In time his body accepts theat this is his new size and it becomes not quite so difficult. At that point he can relax a bit with anabolics/massive eating/etc…and his weight will probably dial in to a nice lean 225-230lbs. of course this is all arbitrary and just based on what i have seen over many years.
[/quote]

thats true. ive been struggling to keep or increase my weight and it has been always a challenge, but after some months my body seems to adapt to that weight and it keeps it with a normal(not massive) diet. So i think the most apropiate thing to do is to overeat for some time and get bigger than what you really want, and when you body gets used to it then start with the cutting phase, in order to maintain the most of your hard earned muscle.