Finance Capitalism = Racism?

Off Topic
41

/sidenote sense I saw A&M and racism in the same thread. I have a friend that attends that school and my cousin finishing up her phd there… to this day I have not been able to go through college station without some sort of racist remark from the general population or the students. Its completely ridiculous… like the levels they drop too.

Football games are even more amusing… but I don’t hold anything stated there against them. “12th man” gets angry when they lose… especially if you have a beard and are middle eastern… they get surprisingly creative.

As far as racism in America… everyones racist… for the majority its at a subconscious level. But we all still see “color” the day we stop associating colors etc… is the day racism dies and that will never happen.

42

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Why would it not be present?

Social networking is not just on facebook. It starts early. Neighborhood or private schools, then college fraternities, then corporate America.

I worked at a mid sized corporation where if you didn’t graduate from Penn State, you were not going anywhere in that company. The entire board and all of the engineers were from PSU.

If companies can be that finicky about diplomas, how do you think they are going to feel about someone from outside of their race?
[/quote]

It’s not just PSU. I have seen the same behavior with Texas A&M grads…and while you can talk all you want about how racist someone has to be growing up, I do believe that school is still only about 3-4% black.

Institutionalized racism does not mean everyone belongs to the KKK.

Also, Eli is right, you would have to be really slow in the head to think that this woman simply arrived at a conclusion with absolutely no basis in fact OR that arguing with the woman as if she is stupid will do anything but make your time harder in that class.

Also, remember on X-Files how the woman playing Scully was getting paid much less than Moulder on the set? Didn’t they both pretty much have equal billing on that show?
[/quote]

Data can be used to misrepresent just about anything, and the feminazis in the country have you thinking exactly what they want with their propaganda.

Just take a look at some of the real facts, where…

  1. Women are not generally in the workforce as long as men, due to several different circumstances, leading to an experience gap, and thus a pay gap.
  2. If there is a glass ceiling, then there must be a glass floor. Feminists want us to believe that there is some huge conspiracy that leads to very few women in high power corporate positions, but there really isn’t. Women just want to be able to hold these types of positions without having the burden of working in other male dominated fields that require high amounts of risk on the job. Seems like quite the double standard.
  3. In the recent economy, the male unemployment rate is greater than the female unemployment by an unprecendented gap.
  4. The majority of social security taxes are paid by men but are disproportionately collected by women, due to their average lifespan in the US being greater by 7 years.

OP, your teacher is a crazy feminist and I would disregard much of the crap that will come out of her mouth, but keep your own mouth shut so that you get your grade.

43

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Make 90k+ and you’re considered “upper class” which all these classes make no sense to me, because there is someone that is making $89,999.99 and well they are just upper-middle class. I’m sure even mid-sized corporations have people in the “upper-class” in their boardrooms, I know the few mid-sized companies I worked with had “upper-class” people in their boardrooms.

No, I am not talking about the Fortune 500.[/quote]

$90,000 is not “upper class” in NJ. Not even close. And that’s one of the reason I hate policies (such as the new home owners rebate) that focus on a set income level for the entire country. Regardless of cost of living in that area. It’s retarded.

44

[quote]kman3b18 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Why would it not be present?

Social networking is not just on facebook. It starts early. Neighborhood or private schools, then college fraternities, then corporate America.

I worked at a mid sized corporation where if you didn’t graduate from Penn State, you were not going anywhere in that company. The entire board and all of the engineers were from PSU.

If companies can be that finicky about diplomas, how do you think they are going to feel about someone from outside of their race?
[/quote]

It’s not just PSU. I have seen the same behavior with Texas A&M grads…and while you can talk all you want about how racist someone has to be growing up, I do believe that school is still only about 3-4% black.

Institutionalized racism does not mean everyone belongs to the KKK.

Also, Eli is right, you would have to be really slow in the head to think that this woman simply arrived at a conclusion with absolutely no basis in fact OR that arguing with the woman as if she is stupid will do anything but make your time harder in that class.

Also, remember on X-Files how the woman playing Scully was getting paid much less than Moulder on the set? Didn’t they both pretty much have equal billing on that show?
[/quote]

Data can be used to misrepresent just about anything, and the feminazis in the country have you thinking exactly what they want with their propaganda.

Just take a look at some of the real facts, where…

  1. Women are not generally in the workforce as long as men, due to several different circumstances, leading to an experience gap, and thus a pay gap.
  2. If there is a glass ceiling, then there must be a glass floor. Feminists want us to believe that there is some huge conspiracy that leads to very few women in high power corporate positions, but there really isn’t. Women just want to be able to hold these types of positions without having the burden of working in other male dominated fields that require high amounts of risk on the job. Seems like quite the double standard.
  3. In the recent economy, the male unemployment rate is greater than the female unemployment by an unprecendented gap.
  4. The vast majority of social security taxes are paid by men but are collected by women, due to their average lifespan in the US being greater by 7 years.

OP, your teacher is a crazy feminist and I would disregard much of the crap that will come out of her mouth, but keep your own mouth shut so that you get your grade.[/quote]

Good post. Most people who comment on the salary gap between men and women have an agenda. So they hear salary gap, that’s all they want to hear and move on from their studies. Studies that have gone deeper have found that the gap between men and women is mainly due to child bearing, and that women who have not had kids, who have worked in the same industries as men and have the same experience, actually get paid slightly more than men.

There are far too many variables to conclude that the gap between the salaries of men and women are due to gender.

45

[quote]kman3b18 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Why would it not be present?

Social networking is not just on facebook. It starts early. Neighborhood or private schools, then college fraternities, then corporate America.

I worked at a mid sized corporation where if you didn’t graduate from Penn State, you were not going anywhere in that company. The entire board and all of the engineers were from PSU.

If companies can be that finicky about diplomas, how do you think they are going to feel about someone from outside of their race?
[/quote]

It’s not just PSU. I have seen the same behavior with Texas A&M grads…and while you can talk all you want about how racist someone has to be growing up, I do believe that school is still only about 3-4% black.

Institutionalized racism does not mean everyone belongs to the KKK.

Also, Eli is right, you would have to be really slow in the head to think that this woman simply arrived at a conclusion with absolutely no basis in fact OR that arguing with the woman as if she is stupid will do anything but make your time harder in that class.

Also, remember on X-Files how the woman playing Scully was getting paid much less than Moulder on the set? Didn’t they both pretty much have equal billing on that show?
[/quote]

Data can be used to misrepresent just about anything, and the feminazis in the country have you thinking exactly what they want with their propaganda.

Just take a look at some of the real facts, where…

  1. Women are not generally in the workforce as long as men, due to several different circumstances, leading to an experience gap, and thus a pay gap.
  2. If there is a glass ceiling, then there must be a glass floor. Feminists want us to believe that there is some huge conspiracy that leads to very few women in high power corporate positions, but there really isn’t. Women just want to be able to hold these types of positions without having the burden of working in other male dominated fields that require high amounts of risk on the job. Seems like quite the double standard.
  3. In the recent economy, the male unemployment rate is greater than the female unemployment by an unprecendented gap.
  4. The majority of social security taxes are paid by men but are disproportionately collected by women, due to their average lifespan in the US being greater by 7 years.

OP, your teacher is a crazy feminist and I would disregard much of the crap that will come out of her mouth, but keep your own mouth shut so that you get your grade.[/quote]

Uh, right…because I am the epitome of a blind follower. The last link I posted showed the gap for specific careers. I also mentioned a very popular tv show with a male/female lead…that I guess you explain away due to Scully not being an actress long enough?

Look, I know there are people with agendas and female domination of the workforce is something I speak on regularly. Hell, I just made a related point in that Combat movie thread…so to whom are you preaching?

46

[quote]Amiright wrote:
/sidenote sense I saw A&M and racism in the same thread. I have a friend that attends that school and my cousin finishing up her phd there… to this day I have not been able to go through college station without some sort of racist remark from the general population or the students. Its completely ridiculous… like the levels they drop too.

Football games are even more amusing… but I don’t hold anything stated there against them. “12th man” gets angry when they lose… especially if you have a beard and are middle eastern… they get surprisingly creative.

As far as racism in America… everyones racist… for the majority its at a subconscious level. But we all still see “color” the day we stop associating colors etc… is the day racism dies and that will never happen.
[/quote]

It is ridiculous. I tried to avoid giving my own personal experience to keep this objective, but if anyone who actually knows about Texas A&M actually believes that their still prevalent (although possible improving) racist attitudes and “favoritism influenced hiring practices by previous grads” leads to no effect on racial hiring percentages, then they are simply CHOOSING to be blind.

That is what is meant by institutionalized racism. It doesn’t mean everyone involved is a racist. It means that due to the practices of certain people, entire races can be effected as a whole.

47

[quote]belligerent wrote:
If an instructor of mine said that I would get up and walk out of the room.[/quote]

Said what? Question, why would you believe someone as clearly biased as the OP would relay this woman’s words correctly with no distortion?

That isn’t even logical.

48

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]belligerent wrote:
If an instructor of mine said that I would get up and walk out of the room.[/quote]

Said what? Question, why would you believe someone as clearly biased as the OP would relay this woman’s words correctly with no distortion?

That isn’t even logical.[/quote]

You mean, we shouldn’t take the OP’s “something like this (very roughly)” summary as gospel?

But then, we all know that the best way to deal with something you don’t like is to run away from it, so maybe belligerent is on to something.

49

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
She also posted a bogus stat stating blatantly that “women make 70% of men’s wages.”

[/quote]

I just heard yesterday on the radio that it’s up to 83% now.

50

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Re: what Proff X and Eli said - I couldn’t agree more. Institutional racism persists not only within corporate America, but in all facets of life, starting from the worlds best indoctrinating institution, education.

Like Proff X stated, there’s a lack of people of color in higher education primarily because they have many more barriers to access to higher education than their white counterparts. This is due to the lack of resources that people of color encounter early on in their education - they live in areas that do not put funding into public education and as such, they do not get the same caliber of education as white folk. This is compounded by the fact that education is expensive and in order to get into a private school one needs money (loans), something which people of color generally lack (again when compared to their white peers). Of course POC can apply to state schools where the competition is much higher and where Affirmative Action is no longer being practiced (to my knowledge).

So like JoeGood said, racism in America is not just related to corporate financing, it runs much deeper - zoning laws, gentrification of neighborhoods, state funding practices, pipeline programs - these are just a few of the other factors that purport racism in the US. And all this excludes the fact that hiring practices are generally guided by the kinds of cultural and social capital that people of color generally lack (i.e. Bourdieu).

[/quote]

That however was not the argument.

There is a difference wether black people have a harder time getting access to knowledge or whether sinister corporations deliberately make it so that 20-30 years down the road they can pay marginally lower wages.

The amount of behind the scenes co-operation would be staggering to say the least, and I guess they are also to blame for shitty public schools?

How about this:

Black people in densely poulated urban areas go to shitty government run schools and are lucky to learn how to read and write with drop out rates of 60% or so which does not bode well for their future?

[/quote]

good point.

Its not so much that its an explicit conspiracy but rather a vicious cycle.

51

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I have not read the entire thread and am responding to the OP and PX’s comment about A&M. Hopefully I am not repeating anything.

redleg - I would wager that your Profs argument is influenced (probably heavily) by Marx’s critique of capitalism and the justification of why there are wage differences between the genders. If you look at low skilled light manufactoring around the world much of it is done by women or children because the ‘acceptable’ wage for them is lower than for men. Why, gender stereotypes.

PX - there was a study (mid-late 90s) done at A&M looking at attitudes of the different ethnic groups on campus. The “surprising” findings, the term used by the professor in charge, was that animosity between minority ethnic groups and the level in which they judged each other was much higher than the level of animosity of judgment by whites towards other groups. That said, the small population size of minorities in general on campus probably has something to do with that. I saw very little overt racism on campus, though there was some, and generally it was strongly reacted to very negatively by surrounding students. If you look to what started Aggiepolouza (not sure if still held) it was a student organized ‘protest’ concert held next to a KKK rally to drown out their speeches. (Argument was, the KKK had to right to gather and give speeches on private land, the students had the same right and just planned on being louder.) I know it went on for several years after the initial event. The idea that all Aggies are family is one of the biggest traditions on campus and I think/hope combat racism/sexism, etc. there.

[/quote]

It may be tradition, but it also highlights what I imagine is the true argument by the op’s teacher (and not his weak cliff notes version of her argument to make her out to be a complete moron). If only 3% of the school is black…and graduates look out for each other like members of a close fraternity long after school ends, then it follows that hiring practices will no doubt have a larger “racial” effect on the immediate population.

[/quote]
I do not disagree with this. Good point. (re: small population comment above)

52

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]kman3b18 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Why would it not be present?

Social networking is not just on facebook. It starts early. Neighborhood or private schools, then college fraternities, then corporate America.

I worked at a mid sized corporation where if you didn’t graduate from Penn State, you were not going anywhere in that company. The entire board and all of the engineers were from PSU.

If companies can be that finicky about diplomas, how do you think they are going to feel about someone from outside of their race?
[/quote]

It’s not just PSU. I have seen the same behavior with Texas A&M grads…and while you can talk all you want about how racist someone has to be growing up, I do believe that school is still only about 3-4% black.

Institutionalized racism does not mean everyone belongs to the KKK.

Also, Eli is right, you would have to be really slow in the head to think that this woman simply arrived at a conclusion with absolutely no basis in fact OR that arguing with the woman as if she is stupid will do anything but make your time harder in that class.

Also, remember on X-Files how the woman playing Scully was getting paid much less than Moulder on the set? Didn’t they both pretty much have equal billing on that show?
[/quote]

Data can be used to misrepresent just about anything, and the feminazis in the country have you thinking exactly what they want with their propaganda.

Just take a look at some of the real facts, where…

  1. Women are not generally in the workforce as long as men, due to several different circumstances, leading to an experience gap, and thus a pay gap.
  2. If there is a glass ceiling, then there must be a glass floor. Feminists want us to believe that there is some huge conspiracy that leads to very few women in high power corporate positions, but there really isn’t. Women just want to be able to hold these types of positions without having the burden of working in other male dominated fields that require high amounts of risk on the job. Seems like quite the double standard.
  3. In the recent economy, the male unemployment rate is greater than the female unemployment by an unprecendented gap.
  4. The vast majority of social security taxes are paid by men but are collected by women, due to their average lifespan in the US being greater by 7 years.

OP, your teacher is a crazy feminist and I would disregard much of the crap that will come out of her mouth, but keep your own mouth shut so that you get your grade.[/quote]

Good post. Most people who comment on the salary gap between men and women have an agenda. So they hear salary gap, that’s all they want to hear and move on from their studies. Studies that have gone deeper have found that the gap between men and women is mainly due to child bearing, and that women who have not had kids, who have worked in the same industries as men and have the same experience, actually get paid slightly more than men.

There are far too many variables to conclude that the gap between the salaries of men and women are due to gender.
[/quote]
I am generally wary of the salary gap statistics for some of the same reasons mentioned above. However, a study looking a starting and salary increase of men and women in the past 10 years (trends within job type, not across the board), there is still a significant discrepancy in starting pay and rate of pay increase.

53

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Re: what Proff X and Eli said - I couldn’t agree more. Institutional racism persists not only within corporate America, but in all facets of life, starting from the worlds best indoctrinating institution, education.

Like Proff X stated, there’s a lack of people of color in higher education primarily because they have many more barriers to access to higher education than their white counterparts. This is due to the lack of resources that people of color encounter early on in their education - they live in areas that do not put funding into public education and as such, they do not get the same caliber of education as white folk. This is compounded by the fact that education is expensive and in order to get into a private school one needs money (loans), something which people of color generally lack (again when compared to their white peers). Of course POC can apply to state schools where the competition is much higher and where Affirmative Action is no longer being practiced (to my knowledge).

So like JoeGood said, racism in America is not just related to corporate financing, it runs much deeper - zoning laws, gentrification of neighborhoods, state funding practices, pipeline programs - these are just a few of the other factors that purport racism in the US. And all this excludes the fact that hiring practices are generally guided by the kinds of cultural and social capital that people of color generally lack (i.e. Bourdieu).

[/quote]

That however was not the argument.

There is a difference wether black people have a harder time getting access to knowledge or whether sinister corporations deliberately make it so that 20-30 years down the road they can pay marginally lower wages.

The amount of behind the scenes co-operation would be staggering to say the least, and I guess they are also to blame for shitty public schools?

How about this:

Black people in densely poulated urban areas go to shitty government run schools and are lucky to learn how to read and write with drop out rates of 60% or so which does not bode well for their future?

[/quote]

good point.

Its not so much that its an explicit conspiracy but rather a vicious cycle.[/quote]

While perhaps not a current explicit conspiracy the ground work for the discrepancy in access to education and job opportunities was established under overt racial discrimination.

54

OP: Regardless of the details of this issue, for the love of God, DON’T START ARGUMENTS WITH PROFESSORS!!! I tried to debate or refute profs many times and it affected me negatively 9 times out of 10. Right, wrong, or irrelevant, the professor most likely doesn’t care what you have to say. Just cruise on through it, do what it takes to get the grade you need, and don’t let it get to you. Feeling macho for being right, even if the whole class knows it, won’t be of any use when the prof makes the rest of the semester hell for you or if you ever need her to write a reference for you later on.

55

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:
So I am in this sociology course titled “Race & Ethnic Relations.” The professor gave us her reasoning today as to why racism still persists in America. The corporations want racism to exist. It was something like this (very roughly).

Finance Capitalism is to blame for the continuing racism in this country. It works like this: I interview two people for a job, one black and one white (her area of study is racism towards African Americans). I don’t want to offer the black guy any more money than I have to. I have to offer the white guy the same $ as the black guy. This leads to everyone being underpaid and having no control over their own lives. So the corporations keep racism alive.

To me though, it seems like the guys in the corporations have to be racist in the first place for this theory to work. Someone has to come from some racist background or upbringing to bring racist practices into the workplace.

Basically I’m saying that the corporations don’t keep racism persisting in this country, it’s the old school prejudices that come from people wanting to build themselves up by putting others down.

Anyone have any comments on this? I would like to make a good argument against this professor. She has too much of an agenda for my taste. I want to learn facts/theories whatever, but not be told how I should think.
She also posted a bogus stat stating blatantly that “women make 70% of men’s wages.” This, of course is based on faulty data (the men and women being studied are not of the same age, experience, or have same time on the job).

Just looking for thoughts.
[/quote]

O.K. This will be anecdotal but it does give a clear insight into actual practice apart from theory. I’ve been in the corporate world now for over 10 years and I’m sorry but I don’t see any racism what so ever. My last manager was a female my current happens to be black. Their managers and people that reported to them didn’t treat them any different than a white male.

Professors and students in our universities need to stop beating themselves up over racism. Concentrate on real skills that will be needed when you hit the job market like selling, teamwork and negotiating.

I had to take those same classes when I went to school. Come to find out they’re a huge waste of time.

56

[quote]NvrTooLate wrote:
I’ve been in the corporate world now for over 10 years and I’m sorry but I don’t see any racism what so ever.

[/quote]

Are you a minority?

57

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

While I don’t doubt that racism exists in education, the example you give appears to be discrimination against poor people, not against non-whites. As JoeGood says, that is “classism” not “racism”.
[/quote]

Again, I don’t disagree with this - but in my view, and in terms of “institutionalized racism”, classism is inherently racist since people of color already start off in a disadvantaged position when compared to their peers.
[/quote]
Except that there are plenty of wealthy black people and plenty of poor white people. Labeling classism as racism ignores these groups and therefore is not accurate.[/quote]

It may not be perfectly accurate, but to deny that “classism” can have generationally RACIST effects is just naive. It may have been “classism” when a company first starts its hiring practices, but 20 years later when this is done across many corporations, it will no doubt effect blacks and hispanics on a much larger scale, therefore making is a racial issue as well.

You are using semantics to ignore the overall effects on a grand scale.

White poor people existing does not erase the larger racial effect when looking at THOUSANDS of people.[/quote]

You seem to have completely mixed up correlation with causation. If a person is denied something because they cannot afford it that is not racism.

If you want to say that racism has caused more minorities to be lower class then sure, I’ll buy that. But classism itself did not cause this and is not “inherently racist”. “Rich” and “Poor” are, quite simply, not races.

58

[quote]strengthstudent wrote:
OP: Regardless of the details of this issue, for the love of God, DON’T START ARGUMENTS WITH PROFESSORS!!! I tried to debate or refute profs many times and it affected me negatively 9 times out of 10. Right, wrong, or irrelevant, the professor most likely doesn’t care what you have to say. Just cruise on through it, do what it takes to get the grade you need, and don’t let it get to you. Feeling macho for being right, even if the whole class knows it, won’t be of any use when the prof makes the rest of the semester hell for you or if you ever need her to write a reference for you later on. [/quote]

To piggy back on this, and I in no way am saying that everything that professors say is 100% correct, but bear in mind there is a very real reality that the professors know a hell of a a lot more about the topic than you do. What you have seen is a tiny sliver to what occurs. Do the professors have biases, sure - just like the students do. Do the professors have to simplify very complex ideas and present them in a way that most students understand? yes. And it is very conceivable that you understanding of the concept is simplistic and biased (you may not realize this) and that what the professor is trying to do is help you expand you understanding of the topic. And believe it or not, you might just be wrong.

59

[quote]NvrTooLate wrote:
I’ve been in the corporate world now for over 10 years and I’m sorry but I don’t see any racism what so ever.

[/quote]

So if I have seen it does that make me or you wrong?

60

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

While I don’t doubt that racism exists in education, the example you give appears to be discrimination against poor people, not against non-whites. As JoeGood says, that is “classism” not “racism”.
[/quote]

Again, I don’t disagree with this - but in my view, and in terms of “institutionalized racism”, classism is inherently racist since people of color already start off in a disadvantaged position when compared to their peers.
[/quote]
Except that there are plenty of wealthy black people and plenty of poor white people. Labeling classism as racism ignores these groups and therefore is not accurate.[/quote]

It may not be perfectly accurate, but to deny that “classism” can have generationally RACIST effects is just naive. It may have been “classism” when a company first starts its hiring practices, but 20 years later when this is done across many corporations, it will no doubt effect blacks and hispanics on a much larger scale, therefore making is a racial issue as well.

You are using semantics to ignore the overall effects on a grand scale.

White poor people existing does not erase the larger racial effect when looking at THOUSANDS of people.[/quote]

You seem to have completely mixed up correlation with causation. If a person is denied something because they cannot afford it that is not racism.

If you want to say that racism has caused more minorities to be lower class then sure, I’ll buy that. But classism itself did not cause this and is not “inherently racist”. “Rich” and “Poor” are, quite simply, not races.[/quote]

This is an ahistorical view of the world. Alas, history matters.