Finance Capitalism = Racism?

Off Topic
21

[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Re: what Proff X and Eli said - I couldn’t agree more. Institutional racism persists not only within corporate America, but in all facets of life, starting from the worlds best indoctrinating institution, education.

Like Proff X stated, there’s a lack of people of color in higher education primarily because they have many more barriers to access to higher education than their white counterparts. This is due to the lack of resources that people of color encounter early on in their education - they live in areas that do not put funding into public education and as such, they do not get the same caliber of education as white folk. This is compounded by the fact that education is expensive and in order to get into a private school one needs money (loans), something which people of color generally lack (again when compared to their white peers). Of course POC can apply to state schools where the competition is much higher and where Affirmative Action is no longer being practiced (to my knowledge).

So like JoeGood said, racism in America is not just related to corporate financing, it runs much deeper - zoning laws, gentrification of neighborhoods, state funding practices, pipeline programs - these are just a few of the other factors that purport racism in the US. And all this excludes the fact that hiring practices are generally guided by the kinds of cultural and social capital that people of color generally lack (i.e. Bourdieu).

[/quote]

That however was not the argument.

There is a difference wether black people have a harder time getting access to knowledge or whether sinister corporations deliberately make it so that 20-30 years down the road they can pay marginally lower wages.

The amount of behind the scenes co-operation would be staggering to say the least, and I guess they are also to blame for shitty public schools?

How about this:

Black people in densely poulated urban areas go to shitty government run schools and are lucky to learn how to read and write with drop out rates of 60% or so which does not bode well for their future?

22

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Aside from what the OP has written I believe minorities are at a disadvantage in the work force. I’ve spoken to older guys who’ve stated they have worked in mid-size companies that still like to keep it “all white” (his boss stated this to him explicitly). It wouldn’t surprise me if there were instances where an employer would read my ethnic name atop my resume and instantly thrown it away. [/quote]

There is no doubt this happens (although it’s near impossible to determine how often).

However, racial discrimination hurts employers. Employers who racially discriminate are limiting their pool of talent to specific races. They miss out on talent which puts them at a competitive disadvantage and no doubt costs them money in more ways than one.

23

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:

To me though, it seems like the guys in the corporations have to be racist in the first place for this theory to work. Someone has to come from some racist background or upbringing to bring racist practices into the workplace.

Basically I’m saying that the corporations don’t keep racism persisting in this country, it’s the old school prejudices that come from people wanting to build themselves up by putting others down.

Just looking for thoughts.
[/quote]

Yes, powerful consituents of the corporation have to be racist for the corporation as whole to have detrimental effects on a particular race.

Im picturing the boardroom of a hypothetical corporation and Im thinking some assortment of ethnicities but majority white, middle class educated.

Now Im a white middle class liberal but Im racist as the day is long. When I pass a black guy on the street at night I get more nervous than when I pass a white guy. I cant help it, I try and fight it but its there.

If i was making hiring decisions that kind of thought could subconsciously affect my decisions and behavior in ways that Im not even conscious of.

So not hateful KKK upbringings, but merely middle class largely segregated white upbringings makes for some fucked up dynamics in society.[/quote]

Do you have another example of your racist behavior, because that’s hardly racist. And, Middle Class folks aren’t sitting in boardrooms they’re in the field or accountants not the board.

24

[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Re: what Proff X and Eli said - I couldn’t agree more. Institutional racism persists not only within corporate America, but in all facets of life, starting from the worlds best indoctrinating institution, education.

Like Proff X stated, there’s a lack of people of color in higher education primarily because they have many more barriers to access to higher education than their white counterparts. This is due to the lack of resources that people of color encounter early on in their education - they live in areas that do not put funding into public education and as such, they do not get the same caliber of education as white folk. This is compounded by the fact that education is expensive and in order to get into a private school one needs money (loans), something which people of color generally lack (again when compared to their white peers). Of course POC can apply to state schools where the competition is much higher and where Affirmative Action is no longer being practiced (to my knowledge).

So like JoeGood said, racism in America is not just related to corporate financing, it runs much deeper - zoning laws, gentrification of neighborhoods, state funding practices, pipeline programs - these are just a few of the other factors that purport racism in the US. And all this excludes the fact that hiring practices are generally guided by the kinds of cultural and social capital that people of color generally lack (i.e. Bourdieu).

[/quote]
While I don’t doubt that racism exists in education, the example you give appears to be discrimination against poor people, not against non-whites. As JoeGood says, that is “classism” not “racism”.

25

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Aside from what the OP has written I believe minorities are at a disadvantage in the work force. I’ve spoken to older guys who’ve stated they have worked in mid-size companies that still like to keep it “all white” (his boss stated this to him explicitly). It wouldn’t surprise me if there were instances where an employer would read my ethnic name atop my resume and instantly thrown it away. [/quote]

I agree that minorities are at a disadvantage in alot of workplaces (not all). I just don’t buy the professor’s conspiracy theory on corporations supporting racism and the tactics to neutralize racism in order to drive the overall wage down. I don’t see any way that she can prove that is specifically happening anyway.

26

[quote]orion wrote:
That however was not the argument.

There is a difference wether black people have a harder time getting access to knowledge or whether sinister corporations deliberately make it so that 20-30 years down the road they can pay marginally lower wages.

The amount of behind the scenes co-operation would be staggering to say the least, and I guess they are also to blame for shitty public schools?

How about this:

Black people in densely poulated urban areas go to shitty government run schools and are lucky to learn how to read and write with drop out rates of 60% or so which does not bode well for their future?

[/quote]

Can’t argue with that - and honestly I was responding to Proff X and others as i find the OPs teacher’s argument a bit confounding.

I don’t doubt that there is a level of racism in corporate America, but the only way an argument towards “sinister corporations” would even be remotely logical is if you take a Marxist stance and say that corporations push bourgouis/upper class agendas which could be viewed as inherently racist.

Or…

as I stated, if you say that hiring managers only seek to hire individuals based on their cultural and social know-how, which black people might lack due being disenfranchised or exluded from those intsitutions which might foster the same degree of cultural and social capital as those of white people.

But racism based purely on wages…i don’t see the connection…

If anything corporations don’t want to have to pay anyone anymore than they need too regardless of race - lulz!

Also absolutely agree w/ Joegood re: classism and the complexity of the situ. No need to look further than Appalacia for proof.

27

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Aside from what the OP has written I believe minorities are at a disadvantage in the work force. I’ve spoken to older guys who’ve stated they have worked in mid-size companies that still like to keep it “all white” (his boss stated this to him explicitly). It wouldn’t surprise me if there were instances where an employer would read my ethnic name atop my resume and instantly thrown it away. [/quote]

That is why you send a picture, plus beautiful people get hired more…so that may or may not help you.

28

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Aside from what the OP has written I believe minorities are at a disadvantage in the work force. I’ve spoken to older guys who’ve stated they have worked in mid-size companies that still like to keep it “all white” (his boss stated this to him explicitly). It wouldn’t surprise me if there were instances where an employer would read my ethnic name atop my resume and instantly thrown it away. [/quote]

There is no doubt this happens (although it’s near impossible to determine how often).

However, racial discrimination hurts employers. Employers who racially discriminate are limiting their pool of talent to specific races. They miss out on talent which puts them at a competitive disadvantage and no doubt costs them money in more ways than one.[/quote]

Agreed!

Apparently we have these greedy bankers who will do anything for the allmighty dollar, but at the same time they’re willing to sacrifice money in order to be racist.

Something doesn’t add up.

29

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Re: what Proff X and Eli said - I couldn’t agree more. Institutional racism persists not only within corporate America, but in all facets of life, starting from the worlds best indoctrinating institution, education.

Like Proff X stated, there’s a lack of people of color in higher education primarily because they have many more barriers to access to higher education than their white counterparts. This is due to the lack of resources that people of color encounter early on in their education - they live in areas that do not put funding into public education and as such, they do not get the same caliber of education as white folk. This is compounded by the fact that education is expensive and in order to get into a private school one needs money (loans), something which people of color generally lack (again when compared to their white peers). Of course POC can apply to state schools where the competition is much higher and where Affirmative Action is no longer being practiced (to my knowledge).

So like JoeGood said, racism in America is not just related to corporate financing, it runs much deeper - zoning laws, gentrification of neighborhoods, state funding practices, pipeline programs - these are just a few of the other factors that purport racism in the US. And all this excludes the fact that hiring practices are generally guided by the kinds of cultural and social capital that people of color generally lack (i.e. Bourdieu).

[/quote]

That however was not the argument.

There is a difference wether black people have a harder time getting access to knowledge or whether sinister corporations deliberately make it so that 20-30 years down the road they can pay marginally lower wages.

The amount of behind the scenes co-operation would be staggering to say the least, and I guess they are also to blame for shitty public schools?

How about this:

Black people in densely poulated urban areas go to shitty government run schools and are lucky to learn how to read and write with drop out rates of 60% or so which does not bode well for their future?

[/quote]

I would say there are a lot of poor public schools basically built to give the facade that they are getting an education. However, the reading level in America is 8th grade, and that is alright, but think about places like Detroit, Houston, Phoenix, Hawaii where in Detroit it’s 2nd grade.

30

[quote]OBoile wrote:

While I don’t doubt that racism exists in education, the example you give appears to be discrimination against poor people, not against non-whites. As JoeGood says, that is “classism” not “racism”.
[/quote]

Again, I don’t disagree with this - but in my view, and in terms of “institutionalized racism”, classism is inherently racist since people of color already start off in a disadvantaged position when compared to their peers.

31

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:

To me though, it seems like the guys in the corporations have to be racist in the first place for this theory to work. Someone has to come from some racist background or upbringing to bring racist practices into the workplace.

Basically I’m saying that the corporations don’t keep racism persisting in this country, it’s the old school prejudices that come from people wanting to build themselves up by putting others down.

Just looking for thoughts.
[/quote]

Yes, powerful consituents of the corporation have to be racist for the corporation as whole to have detrimental effects on a particular race.

Im picturing the boardroom of a hypothetical corporation and Im thinking some assortment of ethnicities but majority white, middle class educated.

Now Im a white middle class liberal but Im racist as the day is long. When I pass a black guy on the street at night I get more nervous than when I pass a white guy. I cant help it, I try and fight it but its there.

If i was making hiring decisions that kind of thought could subconsciously affect my decisions and behavior in ways that Im not even conscious of.

So not hateful KKK upbringings, but merely middle class largely segregated white upbringings makes for some fucked up dynamics in society.[/quote]

Do you have another example of your racist behavior, because that’s hardly racist. And, Middle Class folks aren’t sitting in boardrooms they’re in the field or accountants not the board.[/quote]

You’re being obtuse. What boardroom are you talking about? There are thousands of midsize companies with middle class citizens on their BOD. If we’re talking Fortune 500 companies, well then, yeah, the board is full of upper class citizens.

32

If an instructor of mine said that I would get up and walk out of the room.

33

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:

To me though, it seems like the guys in the corporations have to be racist in the first place for this theory to work. Someone has to come from some racist background or upbringing to bring racist practices into the workplace.

Basically I’m saying that the corporations don’t keep racism persisting in this country, it’s the old school prejudices that come from people wanting to build themselves up by putting others down.

Just looking for thoughts.
[/quote]

Yes, powerful consituents of the corporation have to be racist for the corporation as whole to have detrimental effects on a particular race.

Im picturing the boardroom of a hypothetical corporation and Im thinking some assortment of ethnicities but majority white, middle class educated.

Now Im a white middle class liberal but Im racist as the day is long. When I pass a black guy on the street at night I get more nervous than when I pass a white guy. I cant help it, I try and fight it but its there.

If i was making hiring decisions that kind of thought could subconsciously affect my decisions and behavior in ways that Im not even conscious of.

So not hateful KKK upbringings, but merely middle class largely segregated white upbringings makes for some fucked up dynamics in society.[/quote]

Do you have another example of your racist behavior, because that’s hardly racist. And, Middle Class folks aren’t sitting in boardrooms they’re in the field or accountants not the board.[/quote]

You’re being obtuse. What boardroom are you talking about? There are thousands of midsize companies with middle class citizens on their BOD. If we’re talking Fortune 500 companies, well then, yeah, the board is full of upper class citizens.[/quote]

Make 90k+ and you’re considered “upper class” which all these classes make no sense to me, because there is someone that is making $89,999.99 and well they are just upper-middle class. I’m sure even mid-sized corporations have people in the “upper-class” in their boardrooms, I know the few mid-sized companies I worked with had “upper-class” people in their boardrooms.

No, I am not talking about the Fortune 500.

34

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

While I don’t doubt that racism exists in education, the example you give appears to be discrimination against poor people, not against non-whites. As JoeGood says, that is “classism” not “racism”.
[/quote]

Again, I don’t disagree with this - but in my view, and in terms of “institutionalized racism”, classism is inherently racist since people of color already start off in a disadvantaged position when compared to their peers.
[/quote]
Except that there are plenty of wealthy black people and plenty of poor white people. Labeling classism as racism ignores these groups and therefore is not accurate.

35

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]redleg32002000 wrote:

To me though, it seems like the guys in the corporations have to be racist in the first place for this theory to work. Someone has to come from some racist background or upbringing to bring racist practices into the workplace.

Basically I’m saying that the corporations don’t keep racism persisting in this country, it’s the old school prejudices that come from people wanting to build themselves up by putting others down.

Just looking for thoughts.
[/quote]

Yes, powerful consituents of the corporation have to be racist for the corporation as whole to have detrimental effects on a particular race.

Im picturing the boardroom of a hypothetical corporation and Im thinking some assortment of ethnicities but majority white, middle class educated.

Now Im a white middle class liberal but Im racist as the day is long. When I pass a black guy on the street at night I get more nervous than when I pass a white guy. I cant help it, I try and fight it but its there.

If i was making hiring decisions that kind of thought could subconsciously affect my decisions and behavior in ways that Im not even conscious of.

So not hateful KKK upbringings, but merely middle class largely segregated white upbringings makes for some fucked up dynamics in society.[/quote]

Do you have another example of your racist behavior, because that’s hardly racist. And, Middle Class folks aren’t sitting in boardrooms they’re in the field or accountants not the board.[/quote]

You’re being obtuse. What boardroom are you talking about? There are thousands of midsize companies with middle class citizens on their BOD. If we’re talking Fortune 500 companies, well then, yeah, the board is full of upper class citizens.[/quote]

Make 90k+ and you’re considered “upper class” [/quote]

Says who? I’ve never seen that cutoff and I strongly disagree with it. Try supporting a family of 4 on 90k/year. Sure, you may always have food on the table but the luxuries I associate with upper class simply won’t be there.

[quote]which all these classes make no sense to me, because there is someone that is making $89,999.99 and well they are just upper-middle class. I’m sure even mid-sized corporations have people in the “upper-class” in their boardrooms, I know the few mid-sized companies I worked with had “upper-class” people in their boardrooms.

No, I am not talking about the Fortune 500.[/quote]

95% of my clients are mid sized companies and I’m familiar (I don’t know them, but I know who they are and what they do) with most of the members of their boards. Some are upper class but I’d put the majority in the middle class.

I suppose this could all break down into semantics of what we both consider upper or middle class. I haven’t given too much thought to the subject, so suffice to say that I think the $90k/year cutoff you proposed is quite low.

36

I have not read the entire thread and am responding to the OP and PX’s comment about A&M. Hopefully I am not repeating anything.

redleg - I would wager that your Profs argument is influenced (probably heavily) by Marx’s critique of capitalism and the justification of why there are wage differences between the genders. If you look at low skilled light manufactoring around the world much of it is done by women or children because the ‘acceptable’ wage for them is lower than for men. Why, gender stereotypes.

PX - there was a study (mid-late 90s) done at A&M looking at attitudes of the different ethnic groups on campus. The “surprising” findings, the term used by the professor in charge, was that animosity between minority ethnic groups and the level in which they judged each other was much higher than the level of animosity of judgment by whites towards other groups. That said, the small population size of minorities in general on campus probably has something to do with that. I saw very little overt racism on campus, though there was some, and generally it was strongly reacted to very negatively by surrounding students. If you look to what started Aggiepolouza (not sure if still held) it was a student organized ‘protest’ concert held next to a KKK rally to drown out their speeches. (Argument was, the KKK had to right to gather and give speeches on private land, the students had the same right and just planned on being louder.) I know it went on for several years after the initial event. The idea that all Aggies are family is one of the biggest traditions on campus and I think/hope combat racism/sexism, etc. there.

37

I have not read the entire thread and am responding to the OP and PX’s comment about A&M. Hopefully I am not repeating anything.

redleg - I would wager that your Profs argument is influenced (probably heavily) by Marx’s critique of capitalism and the justification of why there are wage differences between the genders. If you look at low skilled light manufactoring around the world much of it is done by women or children because the ‘acceptable’ wage for them is lower than for men. Why, gender stereotypes.

PX - there was a study (mid-late 90s) done at A&M looking at attitudes of the different ethnic groups on campus. The “surprising” findings, the term used by the professor in charge, was that animosity between minority ethnic groups and the level in which they judged each other was much higher than the level of animosity of judgment by whites towards other groups. That said, the small population size of minorities in general on campus probably has something to do with that. I saw very little overt racism on campus, though there was some, and generally it was strongly reacted to very negatively by surrounding students. If you look to what started Aggiepolouza (not sure if still held) it was a student organized ‘protest’ concert held next to a KKK rally to drown out their speeches. (Argument was, the KKK had to right to gather and give speeches on private land, the students had the same right and just planned on being louder.) I know it went on for several years after the initial event. The idea that all Aggies are family is one of the biggest traditions on campus and I think/hope combat racism/sexism, etc. there.

38

Does racism exist in America? Possibly. I am sure you can find cases across America where individuals were discriminated against. However is it possible for people of all ethnicities to succeed and thrive in America? I believe it absolutely is.

Do white people in America have any excuse for being poor, uneducated, or on welfare? Do black people? Do Hispanics? While it is certainly very easy for us to blame malicious corporations for our own defeat and or lack of success I don’t think that we can use that excuse much longer. When we start hoisting 100% of the blame away from ourselves than we will never succeed because we have become victims and will never have the motivation or inspiration to change. If I started a thread feeling sorry for myself because I am a fatty who eats McDonald’s every meal and is allergic to hard work I hope that I would not receive any sympathy. Why is it that in a country where we have an African American president people are still saying that it is too hard for minorities to succeed? It is hard work for anyone to succeed. Gifts do not fall down from the sky and in most cases success is the result of failing and trying over until you find a solution. No doubt it will take time for the statistics of highly paid minorities to begin equaling out with those of white bread executives but they will even out as time goes on.

Hard work and passionate entrepreneurship is key to success for all races in America. Fostering these qualities starts at birth and relies on the support of family, and the education system to continue into adulthood. I hope this makes sense.

39

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

While I don’t doubt that racism exists in education, the example you give appears to be discrimination against poor people, not against non-whites. As JoeGood says, that is “classism” not “racism”.
[/quote]

Again, I don’t disagree with this - but in my view, and in terms of “institutionalized racism”, classism is inherently racist since people of color already start off in a disadvantaged position when compared to their peers.
[/quote]
Except that there are plenty of wealthy black people and plenty of poor white people. Labeling classism as racism ignores these groups and therefore is not accurate.[/quote]

It may not be perfectly accurate, but to deny that “classism” can have generationally RACIST effects is just naive. It may have been “classism” when a company first starts its hiring practices, but 20 years later when this is done across many corporations, it will no doubt effect blacks and hispanics on a much larger scale, therefore making is a racial issue as well.

You are using semantics to ignore the overall effects on a grand scale.

White poor people existing does not erase the larger racial effect when looking at THOUSANDS of people.

40

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I have not read the entire thread and am responding to the OP and PX’s comment about A&M. Hopefully I am not repeating anything.

redleg - I would wager that your Profs argument is influenced (probably heavily) by Marx’s critique of capitalism and the justification of why there are wage differences between the genders. If you look at low skilled light manufactoring around the world much of it is done by women or children because the ‘acceptable’ wage for them is lower than for men. Why, gender stereotypes.

PX - there was a study (mid-late 90s) done at A&M looking at attitudes of the different ethnic groups on campus. The “surprising” findings, the term used by the professor in charge, was that animosity between minority ethnic groups and the level in which they judged each other was much higher than the level of animosity of judgment by whites towards other groups. That said, the small population size of minorities in general on campus probably has something to do with that. I saw very little overt racism on campus, though there was some, and generally it was strongly reacted to very negatively by surrounding students. If you look to what started Aggiepolouza (not sure if still held) it was a student organized ‘protest’ concert held next to a KKK rally to drown out their speeches. (Argument was, the KKK had to right to gather and give speeches on private land, the students had the same right and just planned on being louder.) I know it went on for several years after the initial event. The idea that all Aggies are family is one of the biggest traditions on campus and I think/hope combat racism/sexism, etc. there.

[/quote]

It may be tradition, but it also highlights what I imagine is the true argument by the op’s teacher (and not his weak cliff notes version of her argument to make her out to be a complete moron). If only 3% of the school is black…and graduates look out for each other like members of a close fraternity long after school ends, then it follows that hiring practices will no doubt have a larger “racial” effect on the immediate population.