First off avoid it if possible, if not try to keep it standing.
Keep in mind you will likely have very different ideas of rules than your opponent. All bets are off.
While you are trying to choke him out, he may pull off your ear or jam a thumb in your eye.
Hell, Mike Tyson bites and he’s a trained professional.
This is for the ‘ego’ street fight.
This is basically a fight with some tough guy and not a group or whatever.
For the crazy guy I like to get the clinch. The double leg could set you up for knees if it fails and you can hurt your own knees when you hit the ground wrong.
Move forward on the crazy guy and get the clinch and put him on a wall, car, pole, whatever. It’s a standing pin against something. His attacks are ineffective from there. Then rip one or both of his legs out, you can first soften him up with elbows, knees, punches while he’s pinned, and go to mount or knee on chest and punch. Try to gift wrap him.
When people talk about multi attackers and how ground fighting doesn’t work they forget that with multi attackers who are good not much does work. So what do they say. Keep hitting and moving. You will get swarmed on and they will take you down anyway if they know anything. I’ve seen ground fighters beat real attackers by going to the ground. At any rate why are you fighting anyway?
Check out what Matt Thornton of the straight blast gym has to say.
Also, Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ are the places to go to learn how to fight. None of them give you the complete picture. The criticism of BJJ is hilarious. BJJ for a real fight is different and any coach will tell you that. They use punches, elbows and sound strategy in the clinch to avoid going to the ground in a self destructive manner.
So a guy is swinging like crazy, time your approach put your hands up and clinch his ass. Or stay far away and let him gas. Watch some ufc’s…then tell me it’s not real cause it’s on a mat. Yeah, I’d rather be a karate master than georges St. Pierre because it’s a street fight. No way.
As to the question of how grapplers view fighting, I’d say many of them practise their sports (yes SPORTS) just for the love of the sport, and many of them aren’t overly interested in true self defence.
Wrestling and Judo are both Olympic sports, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is very popular worldwide as well.
Most guys who train BJJ but are actually INTERESTED in self defence will tell you they are also learning or WANT to learn a striking art, usually Muay Thai or Boxing.
And finally there are the delusional bunch, the guys that think to themselves “Oh my F’n GAWD BJJ RuLEZ EveRYTHinG HArDKkORE to teh MAX!!!” These are the guys that are in for a surprise!! And yes, their minds think in weird sentences and bad grammar because these are usually very - um…funny? - people that don’t have much logic. But you’ll find people like this in all walks of life.
However! When you think about a real fight - either 1 on 1 or multiple attackers - and if you watch or download videos of real fights, you see a lot of the same thing happening. It starts with 2 people swinging and throwing wild blows, usually they end up grabbing shirts with the left hand and hockey style punching with the right. Or they just swing like nuts. Either someone gets knocked out quick OR they both get tired within a minute or so, grab each other, and fall on the ground in some worthless schoolboy headlock or something. They then proceed to flail around and wiggle like idiots until the fight is broken up, they both get tired and quit, or the absolute worst, one guy’s friends all jump in and stomp the shit out of the other guy.
This is why grappling arts and BJJ - especially because of the Gracies destroying all early competition in sport fighting competitions - became so popular. Almost NO ONE knows how to fight WELL on the GROUND!! And a very large amount of fights END UP there!!!
So if you get into a 1 on 1 fight with someone and he trips you to the ground and starts trying to get on top of you and punch you, with grappling skills you most likely will be able to get him off of you no problem, or just confuse and beat the hell out of him with sweeps, submissions, and ground and pound.
And in a multiple attacker situation, if you end up on the ground getting stomped, you will have a much greater chance of defending yourself and hopefully getting back up and running outta there! Unless you’re Rambo. And fight to the death.
Grappling is just one piece of the puzzle, not the end all and be all.
Oh and just to add to the advice given on the original questions:
I can only tell you that, PERSONALLY, the only time I would ever CHOOSE to fight on the ground in a REAL fight is determined by the following, most likely in this order of importance…
So if I can’t get a weapon, the guy definately has no weapon, its a 1 on 1 fight, and I’m going to LOSE if I don’t try something different… sure why the hell not?
Otherwise, I’d stay up.
[quote]bigscarymonster wrote:
For the love of god NO!
Never take someone to the ground in a street fight. the ground is the worst place you can be, there could be buddies of his around waiting to kick your ass, the guy could have a knife, he could get on top and destroy your face, and any number of other scenarios.
When you are in a street fight try to stay on your feet at all costs. Also if it is a true street fight and you are just trying to protect yourself don’t try to be too macho. Punch him in the throat or kick him in the knee and get the hell out of there.
The less time the other guy has to plan the better off you are, and remember, if your life or the life of someone you love is in danger their are no boundries as to what you should do. Remember that a good swift kick to the nuts will work in a pinch almost every time.
If it is a fight that you are doing just to be macho, don’t do it. There are too many dishonest people out there that are perfectly willing to knife you to win a fight. If your ego is too big to just walk away at least try to stay on your feet.
The last thing that I am going to say is that aside from sport fighting there are anly three reasons that you should get into a physical fight with someone else.
1.) Your are in danger.
2.) Someone you love is in danger.
3.) Someone that cannot protect themselves is in danger.
Monster[/quote]
I think your 3 apply to adult life but I have a feeling this is a kid and fighting in highschool can be about respect and self preservation. Not just life or death. I feel that kids need to be able to fight to some extent. It is an important part of growing up.
I’m not gonna repeat what everyone else has said about going to the ground here but I agree. One thing I want to add (forgive me if someone already said it, I just skimmed a few of the longer posts) is that if they guy you’re fighting is just “going crazy” and swinging wildly, just step back. Keep him swinging and just step back or circle. Eventually one of two things is gonna happen. Either he’s gonna tire himself out to the point where you can just step in and knock him off his tired ass feet, or he’s gonna get pissed and overcommit to a strike.
In the second case he’ll more than likely be completely off balance, just give him a good shove and he’ll go tumbling. That puts him on the ground and you not. If this is a macho ego fight you just made him look like a total fool. Good job. There’s no better way to win a fight than to let your opponent beat himself up.
Cheers,
Jay
I know of multiple accounts of BJJ guys and wrestlers taking the fight to the ground and winning, but they are extremely strong, fast and athletically gifted.
Additionally they have trained for long periods of time with a lot of competition.
Locally, we had a BJJ guy kick the crap out of 3 guys at a public pool. They made fun of his shorts so he shot a double on each one and pounded them. All on concrete.
I think the real point is that if you are confident in your abilities, taking it to the ground is not an issue, but there are only a few people I know that have this attitude.
On a side note, I met a wrestler recently who talked about how he shoots doubles when he fights on a regular basis. He tried on one guy and got suplexed into the concrete…he said it was the only time he ran away from a fight and he felt very fortunate to only be dazed from the experience.
[quote]Todd S. wrote:
…
I think your 3 apply to adult life but I have a feeling this is a kid and fighting in highschool can be about respect and self preservation. Not just life or death. I feel that kids need to be able to fight to some extent. It is an important part of growing up.
[/quote]
Fighting sure was part of growing up when I was a kid.
With the zero tolerance policies in place in schools today I am sure fighting is viewed much differently.
If you fight you better be prepared to fight standing or on the ground because the choice is not always yours.
If you end up in a street fight as an adult your best bet is generally to keep your feet and get the hell out of there as quick as you can. There are exceptions of course.
As all others are saying, staying on your feet is good. It allows you the fastest mode of escape if you need to bail, and the ground can be dangerous place if there are multiple attackers.
On the other hand, if the guy is beating the crap out of me on the stand up, I’m going to take it to the ground where his strikes won’t be as effective. On the ground in a street fight you have to be extra concerned with controlling his arms to avoid being stabbed or hit with a brick.
the first thing i try to do if i think a fight is coming is try to calm myself down and be ready to react and think. the adrenilin rush is cool and it get’s you psyched but not thinking in a fight can usually = getting your face beat. so first i tell myself to calm down and think about what my first movement or reaction to his movement is going to be. most of the time, if i am pretty sure that the guy really wants to fight i won’t give him a chance to hit me first.
i try to close the distance quickly. i try to use short, straight punches because most guys will swing with wide looping wild punches. if you can connect with one nice stiff jab right away that should give you time to get to a clinch and then go from there. if he’s really dazed i use elbows or knees, if i know i can overpower him i’ll usually try to throw him somehow which is what i normally do.
i don’t worry about taking it to the ground because if i’m going to put myself in a position to fight i’m going to make sure that i have buddies there to make sure i don’t get kicked in the head or choked. but i will only do enough to end the fight, i never try to inflict more damage then necessary because i know if i was on the other end i would want him to do the same.
Very true. Us BJJ guys are almost always into boxing, wrestling and thai. And you find most good MMA guys are into something besides their primary ‘style’. And the way BJJ is trained is what makes it very useful in reality situations. The BJJ self defense is not, pull guard or even take the guy down. It is Clinch. Clinch and hit from it and take them down if need be. But it is about controlling the wildman and knowing what to do from the clinch and being a step ahead.
Systems that preach just kick 'em in the nuts or hit 'em in the throat will also be in for a big surprise when they just find themselves on the ground tackled or when they miss that first 'kill ‘em all’ strike and find they aren’t in the shape they thought they were. BJJ training, along with boxing, wrestling and thai teaches you that…FIGHTING isn’t easy. Even though some who pimp ‘street lethal’ systems would have you believe it’s all about one magical precise strike, it ain’t.
when you roll in BJJ class you find yourself saying a few things.
1 This is tough
2 There are deceptive guys out there
3 I’m not invincible
4 Some people can beat me easy and some people can beat them easy
[quote]enterthedojo wrote:
As to the question of how grapplers view fighting, I’d say many of them practise their sports (yes SPORTS) just for the love of the sport, and many of them aren’t overly interested in true self defence.
Wrestling and Judo are both Olympic sports, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is very popular worldwide as well.
Most guys who train BJJ but are actually INTERESTED in self defence will tell you they are also learning or WANT to learn a striking art, usually Muay Thai or Boxing.
And finally there are the delusional bunch, the guys that think to themselves “Oh my F’n GAWD BJJ RuLEZ EveRYTHinG HArDKkORE to teh MAX!!!” These are the guys that are in for a surprise!! And yes, their minds think in weird sentences and bad grammar because these are usually very - um…funny? - people that don’t have much logic. But you’ll find people like this in all walks of life.
However! When you think about a real fight - either 1 on 1 or multiple attackers - and if you watch or download videos of real fights, you see a lot of the same thing happening. It starts with 2 people swinging and throwing wild blows, usually they end up grabbing shirts with the left hand and hockey style punching with the right. Or they just swing like nuts. Either someone gets knocked out quick OR they both get tired within a minute or so, grab each other, and fall on the ground in some worthless schoolboy headlock or something. They then proceed to flail around and wiggle like idiots until the fight is broken up, they both get tired and quit, or the absolute worst, one guy’s friends all jump in and stomp the shit out of the other guy.
This is why grappling arts and BJJ - especially because of the Gracies destroying all early competition in sport fighting competitions - became so popular. Almost NO ONE knows how to fight WELL on the GROUND!! And a very large amount of fights END UP there!!!
So if you get into a 1 on 1 fight with someone and he trips you to the ground and starts trying to get on top of you and punch you, with grappling skills you most likely will be able to get him off of you no problem, or just confuse and beat the hell out of him with sweeps, submissions, and ground and pound.
And in a multiple attacker situation, if you end up on the ground getting stomped, you will have a much greater chance of defending yourself and hopefully getting back up and running outta there! Unless you’re Rambo. And fight to the death.
Grappling is just one piece of the puzzle, not the end all and be all.[/quote]
Unfortunately the increase in popularity in MMA seems to have given the majority of people a false since of security and a unreal expectation of martial artist.
YOU ARE AT A DISTINCT DISADVANTAGE TAKING A FIGHT TO THE GROUND!
TO REINTERATE NUMBER ONE STAY ON YOUR FEET AS YOUR LIFE MAY VERY WELL DEPEND ON IT.
Ok I’ve settled down. Now it must always be kept in mind that street fighting is never predictable ever!
What work in the Cage will not translate to the street. First most MMA competitors know their opponants and their method of fighting you will not be privy in a street fight. Also unless you are a warrior type who lives, eats, breathes drinks, sleeps your art. You will more than likely get your ass handed to you there is no referee or rules in the street.
Variables include but are not limited to the following.
Terrain/invironment (You don’t want to go down on top of broken glass and debree)
Your opponants skill level (he is a former Golden Gloves Champ) you take Tae Kwon Do at the Y twice a week.
Who is watching? ( You take him to the ground and his friends stomp the ever lovin shit out of you.)
You decide you have been training now 5yrs you are competant no one at the dojo can handle your ground game. (he pulls a 9mm and with one small squeeze of the trigger ends your ground game for ever.
You bump into someone at a drinking party man up and apologize buy him a drink to replace the one you spilled. Other wise while you are slipping your jackett off you may wind up with 6 inches of tempered steel hilt deep in you abdomen ever wandered what real guts look like?
The best way to win a street fight is to avoid one seek a safe refuge and call the police if need be, this doesn’t make you a coward it makes you the bravest warrior of all you know how many people are dead because they didn’t want to ruin their street cred by involving law enforcement or because they didn’t want to lose face and stood their ground?
Avoid street confrontations.
Only defend yourself if you are in eminate danger, then get away as fast as you can.
And as far as BJJ and other arts being superior “Listen on any given day you can lose your life or get your ass kicked” over the past yrs how many BJJ have had their ass handed to them in MMA?
You need both stand up and ground skills most people have neither or only one and if you have both you need experiance but that still doesn’t stop the variables on the street.
Everyone please stay safe and do the right things watch MMA on TV leave the street fighting to the idiots!
I once again feel compelled to chime in on this topic and throw in a quote from a movie… “Nobody ever wins a fight”.
[quote]lostinthought wrote:
I once again feel compelled to chime in on this topic and throw in a quote from a movie… “Nobody ever wins a fight”. [/quote]
Haha… well I think that’s a bit extreme, don’t you? But good point!
You’ll also find that most great martial artists and top level instructors are really cool people… very friendly, positive guys (or girls). When you’ve been around fighting for so long, you realize there are much better ways to deal with things.
but what if you end up on the ground. grappling and striking are both good. BJJ has gotten beaten by BJJ and other similar stlyles just with better athletes doing it. All I’m saying is BJJ/thai/wrestling/boxing is worth a lot in the street. So someone pulls a gun…Well I’ve seen a whole lot of defenses for that but come on, if the guy wants to shoot you he’s probably gonna. At least have a chance with some good training.
Street fighting is unpredictable, that’s why it’s good to have the clinch, it makes stuff predictable.
So a guy who simulates fighting all day with supposed lethal moves/defenses is better off than a guy who goes hard but with rules??
I agree totally with avoidance. Great fighters, with a few exceptions, don’t fight in the street. Why would they. I understand a lot of what people are saying but I’m saying what’s the alternative to BJJ/Thai/Boxing/wrestling. Some martial art that simulates street fighting at half speed or less?
I guess a lot depends on the camp you’re with but my BJJ experience has involved way more than the gi,sub grappling or even MMA, they do talk about the street and what are high percentage good options to try. And you’ll just try to defend yourself. As you say it’s unpredicatable. But I’d rather have to defend myself if I were an MMA figther/wrestler/bjj’r/boxer than if I wasn’t.
I think street fighting is crazy. But what if you’re attacked? Well I think Vanderlei Silva was car jacked and I know a some jerk stabbed Lee Murray. I also know tons of traditional or street fighting martial artists who’ve gotten smeared by mid level or decent wrestlers, bjjer’s, boxers and just weightlifting, sprinting, bad ass dudes.
My question to everyone is what’s the alternative to the mma type of training if it’s inadequate for the street?
What do you train then for defending yourself that is better?
Throat strikes and groin kicks? I’ve seen tons of different styles from traditional to street lethal and the athlete with solid basics in the 4 main MMA styles are better.
[quote]Bodyguard wrote:
Unfortunately the increase in popularity in MMA seems to have given the majority of people a false since of security and a unreal expectation of martial artist.
YOU ARE AT A DISTINCT DISADVANTAGE TAKING A FIGHT TO THE GROUND!
TO REINTERATE NUMBER ONE STAY ON YOUR FEET AS YOUR LIFE MAY VERY WELL DEPEND ON IT.
Ok I’ve settled down. Now it must always be kept in mind that street fighting is never predictable ever
What work in the Cage will not translate to the street. First most MMA competitors know their opponants and their method of fighting you will not be privy in a street fight. Also unless you are a warrior type who lives, eats, breathes drinks, sleeps your art. You will more than likely get your ass handed to you there is no referee or rules in the street.
Variables include but are not limited to the following.
Terrain/invironment (You don’t want to go down on top of broken glass and debree)
Your opponants skill level (he is a former Golden Gloves Champ) you take Tae Kwon Do at the Y twice a week.
Who is watching? ( You take him to the ground and his friends stomp the ever lovin shit out of you.)
You decide you have been training now 5yrs you are competant no one at the dojo can handle your ground game. (he pulls a 9mm and with one small squeeze of the trigger ends your ground game for ever.
You bump into someone at a drinking party man up and apologize buy him a drink to replace the one you spilled. Other wise while you are slipping your jackett off you may wind up with 6 inches of tempered steel hilt deep in you abdomen ever wandered what real guts look like?
The best way to win a street fight is to avoid one seek a safe refuge and call the police if need be, this doesn’t make you a coward it makes you the bravest warrior of all you know how many people are dead because they didn’t want to ruin their street cred by involving law enforcement or because they didn’t want to lose face and stood their ground?
Avoid street confrontations.
Only defend yourself if you are in eminate danger, then get away as fast as you can.
And as far as BJJ and other arts being superior “Listen on any given day you can lose your life or get your ass kicked” over the past yrs how many BJJ have had their ass handed to them in MMA?[quote]every mma guy does some type of bjj or submission as well as other things. BJJ has gotten beat by other BJJ and mma athletes who were better. happens in all areas[quote]
You need both stand up and ground skills most people have neither or only one and if you have both you need experiance but that still doesn’t stop the variables on the street.
Everyone please stay safe and do the right things watch MMA on TV leave the street fighting to the idiots!
[quote]agreed[quote]
[/quote]
Please don’t misunderstand what I am saying yes something is better than nothing just like if you don’t go to the gym or have equipment at home push ups and pullups are better than doing nothing.
But realisticly if you want to survive on the ground or otherwise it’s a crap shoot in the street. Fighting skills are better than winging it but only if those skills are second nature only if the variable are minimal only if yrs of practical application to true to life scenarios have been trained add nauseum.
Most schools do not teach this level of training most people do not hit the gym with enough frequency or train properly to make gains and the same can be said for martial arts most people do not put the time in then when confronted it all falls apart or worse yet they break out with some tourny style Kata bullshit and get Beaten to a pulp.
I highly advocate learning to defend your self but I more advocate knowing your own limitations and using your head.
You are damn straight if you have no where to go and the guns in your face I say give it all you got. But that is the point it is iminant danger you have no options so your training if any should reflect that. Case in point ever watch a televised UFC fight they alway show the pre fight training clips and the style is pristene then the fight begins and it is just a wrestling match all the technique goes out the window sure some fights are legendary and some better or worse than others. But if you are seeing that in Pro fights Imagine what it’s like in the street.
Study your art become proficcient. Avoid trouble and stay on your feet and as far as defense against guns etc.
Yes they do work up to a point there have been plenty of people shot trying to slap a gun out of someones hand and in a fight with a knife wielding attacker accept the fact you are gonna get cut then do what you have to do. It’s your life fight for it but again thats the point if you have no choice go all out with every thing you’ve got. If you can avoid the problem avoid it.
Advocating using your brain as your first weapon in self defense also means being realistic about what actually can and will continue to happen the outcomes even if positive for the under dog are still seldom attractive.
My preferance are traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu as the base art. Which can be built upon. But first and foremost what ever could happen doesn’t always have to happen if you use your head.
I wish you all the best stay safe and if it means anything I am proud to hear you have an interest in being able to defend yourself just please be realistic. I’m sure there are plenty of people that care about everybody and wants all of you to come home.
Those who are giving the advice about staying out of fights are correct… not only for your own safety but for your freedom as well… it does not take much for someones head to bounce of the pavement leaving them dead and you in big trouble. I myself don’t have much of an ego but I do have a low tolerance for peoples BS…If I went around fighting everyone that pissed me off I owuld be shot, stabbed, or permanantly jailed. Sometimes fights are unavoidable but most of the time they are. I being a long time martial artist of several styles including standup and ground fighting agree that the best bet is to stay on the feet… you are just more aware and can run if need be… people are crazy nowadays and the won’t hesistate to kill you.
If you find yourself in a confrontation try to talk your way out while instructing that person to stay back from reach of you… if they choose not to listen and invade your space hit them and hit them hard… at least you can fight in court that you were scared for your safety and wanted none of it…
Well said Combat Athlete a jail/prison sentance can ruin your life as well as your loved ones just as much as your untimely demise for bad judgement.
Either way it goes nothing good can come out of putting your hands on someone if you can avoid it.
Fuck me, there must be a lot of angry ppl in the states eh??? Im lucky in that i grew up in the northern beaches of sydney in australia where its primarily an anglo saxon part of the city and fights dont involve knives guns etc. Its usually a one on one affair with everyone standing around making sure it stays that way.
Having said that i havent had a fight since early high school. I have been blindsided a couple of times by large angry islander types, never fell down but didnt continue with it either, i think i may have a relatively hard head and apart from a what the fuck was that for, decided discretion was the better part of valour.
I have no idea if i could fight in a one on one nightclub/party fight and to be honest could care less if i never find out. Even when im insanely drunk i still seem to be able to recognise bad situations and walk away from them dragging my more hot headed mates away with me before it escalates. Like others have said it seems to me that there are way to many ways u could end up in jail after a fight, ppl are in reality kinda fragile and ppl advocating a punch in the throat, eyes balls etc are fucking kidding themselves when taking into account todays litigious society. Do u really want to go to jail or lose everything u have in a law suit cause u lost ur cool after a few beers one night???
The only place where going for broke is acceptable is if ur attacked in such a manner as to endanger ur life or someone u luv, hope it never happens to me or anyone else.
The one time i can remember wanting to hit someone, i was at a pub and some pissed idiot tackled my gf at the time while i was getting a drink. Came back found out whta happened and took it up with him. He wouldnt stand up and fight despite being called all the names under the sun, i turned to walk away and he hit me with a haymaker, bouncers were watching the whole thing and were there before i could blink and took him outside and fucked him up and told me bout it after, funniest thing, didnt spill my beer when i was hit, apparently that was the most impressive thing to my mates ha ha.