Fighting Basics

Training
121

Interesting that you’ve found that. I am an outside fighter through and through. My jab is unquestionably my best punch, and I agree with you that range is a crucial factor in the effectiveness of your punch. Personally though, I believe that the drop step properly incorporated is a game changer. It is a technique, like any other, that requires time both shadow boxing and sparring to develop. I feel that the benefits of proper range are magnified further when the drop step is properly used. From what I’ve seen, too often the jab is overlooked as a power punch, and a weapon in itself to hurt your opponent. It is too often taught, both in the amateurs and the pros, as a tool to set up the ‘big’ punches. That said, it is of course important to vary your jabs, both in terms of style and rhythm.

It also depends, in my opinion, on your favoured stance. I box with my weight over my back foot. I find a small forwards shuffle when I bounce forward to jab is extremely natural. That won’t necessarily be true for everyone though, of course.

122

I was taught to always step into the jab as it add’s mass to the punch and therefore adds power. I’m also not the tallest guy out there, so I’m usually not going to enjoy a reach advantage. Because of that being able to effectively close the gap using footwork while I enter with a jab or other lead off technique is an imperative skill for me to have.

IMO the biggest mistake that I see most people make when working the heavy bag is to not incorporate footwork into their workouts (penetrating, clearing, using angles to off balance their opponent or put them into a position where their offense will be more effective/they will be safe from counter attack). They just waltz right up to the bag and start pounding away at it. That’ll get your heart rate up, sure, but when they then go and put on the gloves and headgear and try out their skills against a thinking, breathing, non compliant target (training partner), they wonder why they keep getting hit so much, or things degrade into two guys/gals just standing toe to toe swinging away at each other.

Fighting (or at least striking) is in large part about the art of attaining a superior position, and it’s only through footwork that we can hope to accomplish that. So, personally I’d always suggest that someone incorporates footwork into their training, regardless of whether it’s heavy bag work, double end bag, focus mitts/thai shields, speed bag, drilling, or sparring. The better your footwork skills are and your ability to control distance and position, the more effective a striker you’re going to be.

But, to each their own I guess. If it works for you, then more power to you.

123

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]yoitspmart wrote:

Thanks man yea iv been doing the heavy bag alot and i need to work on geting my range down for jabs and crosses because idont always have that great of power on them but hooks and body shots are definitely good[/quote]

No doubt brother. It’s taken me a long, long time to be consistent with my range down. One thing I’v found really helps is doing rounds on the heavy bag just shooting jabs over and over, singles and doubles and triples, and focusing on finding range and maintaining it once I have it.

I got into the bad habit of always stepping forward when I jab. Keep your knees bent and DON’T DO THIS.[/quote]

Just curious why you think that stepping forward when you jab is a bad thing? Are you referring to moving both feet, or just the front foot?
[/quote]

Snap, mofo. I beat you by seconds.
[/quote]

Son of a … :wink:

124

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I was taught to always step into the jab as it add’s mass to the punch and therefore adds power. I’m also not the tallest guy out there, so I’m usually not going to enjoy a reach advantage. Because of that being able to effectively close the gap using footwork while I enter with a jab or other lead off technique is an imperative skill for me to have.

IMO the biggest mistake that I see most people make when working the heavy bag is to not incorporate footwork into their workouts (penetrating, clearing, using angles to off balance their opponent or put them into a position where their offense will be more effective/they will be safe from counter attack). They just waltz right up to the bag and start pounding away at it. That’ll get your heart rate up, sure, but when they then go and put on the gloves and headgear and try out their skills against a thinking, breathing, non compliant target (training partner), they wonder why they keep getting hit so much, or things degrade into two guys/gals just standing toe to toe swinging away at each other.

Fighting (or at least striking) is in large part about the art of attaining a superior position, and it’s only through footwork that we can hope to accomplish that. So, personally I’d always suggest that someone incorporates footwork into their training, regardless of whether it’s heavy bag work, double end bag, focus mitts/thai shields, speed bag, drilling, or sparring. The better your footwork skills are and your ability to control distance and position, the more effective a striker you’re going to be.

But, to each their own I guess. If it works for you, then more power to you.[/quote]

Thats why sparring is the MOST IMPORTANT part of training of any fighter.Its the alpha and Omega of training.
First,you must get in there and see what you can and what you cant do.It will teach you what you need to work on.There is no other training tool that can replace it.
Its like a basketball.Dribbling the ball on you own and pulling a jumpshot without someone playing defence on you is great,but if you dont practice it in the game,you wont win against someone who does.

Now,by sparring,I dont mean fighting all out.Its more like playfighting,experimenting with different things and here and there steping up the intensity to get that experience of combat.
If you want to become a swimmer ,you gotta get wet eventualy.

I guess,majority of people out there are just happy acting out as a tough guy,deluding themselves that somehow in a fight they could turn it up and perform,but their training doesnt reflect any of that.Thats why they turn training into ego-boosting beating of a heavy bag,doing bunch of stuff to burn fat,pacing themselves to make it through training session and checking their abs in the changing room.I always suspected that when the shit hit the pan,we ll be seeing their backs as they hit the sprint gear.

Its all a big waste of time.
Anybody willing to fight and become a fighter that I know,was more than willing to jump onto any chance to sparr or compete,and to sparr and take punishment from even much better fighters than they were.

So my point is (although it took me this far to make it),if you really want to become a fighter (being able to effectively fight),its simple.Fighting or something close to fighting,must be part of your everyday training.Everything else is done to enhance that.Fighting exposes your weak points and makes you correct them.

On the other hand,those pretending to be fighters and acting like they are, will continue to find any excuse in the book not to sparr,compete and fight,turning combat gyms into fat-lady fat-burning-place,nerdish-technique-discussing battlegrounds,abs-building dextrose drinking wannabes,because those pencilnecks always outnumber rest of us who just want the real thing.

Rant over.

125

Someone asked what’s the best way to counter a haymaker someone would throw at you, at a bar.

#1. Avoid bars they are places where young men without spouses congregate, likely place to explode into violence at the drop of a hat, as men justle over status.

That being said if you do find yourself in that position. A jab.

Like dempsey points out in championship fighting, a sucker punch is called a sucker’s punch because when you take a shot with your right hand, your opponent’s left hand, the one closer to you will hit you in the face first. You take a shot with your right hand, you are asking to be hit by the other person’s left hand, if they are an experienced opponent.

So your left hand is usually closer to your opponent’s face than his right hand is to yours, (assuming you have the chance to put your hands up) so no matter what type of punch they throw, you should be able to hit them first (if they throw with the right hand) another issue is that the punch is usually thrown and not shot at you, you get these looping haymakers, and like dempsey points out again, the smallest distance between two objects is a straight line.

you jab at someone opening on you with a hook or etc because they have a lot more room to travel than your jab does. Some idiot at a bar takes a wild swing with their right hand, they are giving you a day and a half to smash them in the face with a left explosive jab/jolt.

Your left hand sets up your right hand because your left hand is closer to your opponent and when you strike with it you are still partially defended by your right hand, keeping a good defense. So when someone throws a clumsy right hand at a bar it should be that left hand shooting *straight out in a much shorter motion to reach the same target.

Just hope the other guy swinging at you isn’t some kind of pro-fighter that starts off with a lightning fast jab to set up this thunderous right.

126

For the record the heavy-bag is for building power, not for mastering foot-work. Go watch george foreman work the heavy-bag for a minute or two.

Though I would agree foot-work is under-utilized on the heavy-bag because foot-work like the falling step is what allows you to transfer body-weight so well, but I guess my point is that THE FOCUS PADS or THE MANTIS MITTS is the place where you can practice foot-work while striking as well, also just practicing foot-work, sparring, shadow-boxing.

There’s a lot of places to train foot-work outside of the heavy-bag, and some great boxers don’t do a lot of foot-work on the heavy-bag. Though when I watch dempsey, you see some beautiful foot-work. But again, that isn’t always the case, hell, some fighters don’t even use impressive foot-work during matches.

I guess for a lot of people it’s best to always train certain principles/ideas like bringing your hands back to defend really quickly, always using foot-work, always keeping the chin down and eyes up, they are all good to practice all the time even on the heavy-bag, but it’s not necessarily a criticism of someone or a reflection of their foot-work to watch them work the heavy-bag and coming to some bizarre conclusion based on that alone.

If someone works the heavy-bag with some footwork for 40minutes, but they are working the focus pads day in day out, whatever judgement you come to based on a couple heavy-bag sessions may be inaccurate.

127

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Someone asked what’s the best way to counter a haymaker someone would throw at you, at a bar.

#1. Avoid bars they are places where young men without spouses congregate, likely place to explode into violence at the drop of a hat, as men justle over status.

That being said if you do find yourself in that position. A jab.

Like dempsey points out in championship fighting, a sucker punch is called a sucker’s punch because when you take a shot with your right hand, your opponent’s left hand, the one closer to you will hit you in the face first. You take a shot with your right hand, you are asking to be hit by the other person’s left hand, if they are an experienced opponent.

So your left hand is usually closer to your opponent’s face than his right hand is to yours, (assuming you have the chance to put your hands up) so no matter what type of punch they throw, you should be able to hit them first (if they throw with the right hand) another issue is that the punch is usually thrown and not shot at you, you get these looping haymakers, and like dempsey points out again, the smallest distance between two objects is a straight line.

you jab at someone opening on you with a hook or etc because they have a lot more room to travel than your jab does. Some idiot at a bar takes a wild swing with their right hand, they are giving you a day and a half to smash them in the face with a left explosive jab/jolt.

Your left hand sets up your right hand because your left hand is closer to your opponent and when you strike with it you are still partially defended by your right hand, keeping a good defense. So when someone throws a clumsy right hand at a bar it should be that left hand shooting *straight out in a much shorter motion to reach the same target.

Just hope the other guy swinging at you isn’t some kind of pro-fighter that starts off with a lightning fast jab to set up this thunderous right.[/quote]

For once this dickfor is actually right. A good jab can end a streetfight in a bunch of different ways. You snap it out and touch the guy before he can hit you, he may realize he’s dealing with someone who fights and back off.

Or, you put a little muscle behind it and, especially when barefisted, you can really fuck someone’s day up with a stiff jab.

And, like cunty mcnutsalot above said, it is generally closer to your opponent if you’ve positioned yourself right. In a bar fight however this is not necessarily true because of the way stuff goes down.

Kelly Mccann’s stuff is real good at giving subtle ways to position yourself so your lead hand is closer while making it still look like you’re not going to strike to anyone watching.

128

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Someone asked what’s the best way to counter a haymaker someone would throw at you, at a bar.

#1. Avoid bars they are places where young men without spouses congregate, likely place to explode into violence at the drop of a hat, as men justle over status.

That being said if you do find yourself in that position. A jab.

Like dempsey points out in championship fighting, a sucker punch is called a sucker’s punch because when you take a shot with your right hand, your opponent’s left hand, the one closer to you will hit you in the face first. You take a shot with your right hand, you are asking to be hit by the other person’s left hand, if they are an experienced opponent.

So your left hand is usually closer to your opponent’s face than his right hand is to yours, (assuming you have the chance to put your hands up) so no matter what type of punch they throw, you should be able to hit them first (if they throw with the right hand) another issue is that the punch is usually thrown and not shot at you, you get these looping haymakers, and like dempsey points out again, the smallest distance between two objects is a straight line.

you jab at someone opening on you with a hook or etc because they have a lot more room to travel than your jab does. Some idiot at a bar takes a wild swing with their right hand, they are giving you a day and a half to smash them in the face with a left explosive jab/jolt.

Your left hand sets up your right hand because your left hand is closer to your opponent and when you strike with it you are still partially defended by your right hand, keeping a good defense. So when someone throws a clumsy right hand at a bar it should be that left hand shooting *straight out in a much shorter motion to reach the same target.

Just hope the other guy swinging at you isn’t some kind of pro-fighter that starts off with a lightning fast jab to set up this thunderous right.[/quote]

Avoid bars? I go to bars all the time and a fight is actually a rare event.If I want to go to a bar,I will go to a bar.I see fights in traffic and over parking space all the time.Should I avoid driving a car??

If attacker is steping up to launch a haymaker,a quick long jab to intercept him and set your counterattack is a good idea.
Throwing a jab while your attacker is already swinging at your head is a bad idea.Why? He is already very close to you,his head is harder to hit this close as his head is going downyard diagonaly in a quick jerky motion.You lack space and time to execute jab step to put more power to your jab.You must also put evasion of his haymaker priority number one over counterattack.
Better is to just duck under his wide swinging arm and unleash a combo of powershots from this close position.

129

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
For the record the heavy-bag is for building power, not for mastering foot-work. Go watch george foreman work the heavy-bag for a minute or two.

Though I would agree foot-work is under-utilized on the heavy-bag because foot-work like the falling step is what allows you to transfer body-weight so well, but I guess my point is that THE FOCUS PADS or THE MANTIS MITTS is the place where you can practice foot-work while striking as well, also just practicing foot-work, sparring, shadow-boxing.

There’s a lot of places to train foot-work outside of the heavy-bag, and some great boxers don’t do a lot of foot-work on the heavy-bag. Though when I watch dempsey, you see some beautiful foot-work. But again, that isn’t always the case, hell, some fighters don’t even use impressive foot-work during matches.

I guess for a lot of people it’s best to always train certain principles/ideas like bringing your hands back to defend really quickly, always using foot-work, always keeping the chin down and eyes up, they are all good to practice all the time even on the heavy-bag, but it’s not necessarily a criticism of someone or a reflection of their foot-work to watch them work the heavy-bag and coming to some bizarre conclusion based on that alone.

If someone works the heavy-bag with some footwork for 40minutes, but they are working the focus pads day in day out, whatever judgement you come to based on a couple heavy-bag sessions may be inaccurate.[/quote]

Rookie dipshits who don’t know what they’re doing don’t work footwork on the bag.

Real boxers - people totally different than you - work the bag, and don’t let the bag work them. I know you don’t know what that means, and I ain’t gonna tell you, but other people do.

130

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
For the record the heavy-bag is for building power, not for mastering foot-work. Go watch george foreman work the heavy-bag for a minute or two.

Though I would agree foot-work is under-utilized on the heavy-bag because foot-work like the falling step is what allows you to transfer body-weight so well, but I guess my point is that THE FOCUS PADS or THE MANTIS MITTS is the place where you can practice foot-work while striking as well, also just practicing foot-work, sparring, shadow-boxing.

There’s a lot of places to train foot-work outside of the heavy-bag, and some great boxers don’t do a lot of foot-work on the heavy-bag. Though when I watch dempsey, you see some beautiful foot-work. But again, that isn’t always the case, hell, some fighters don’t even use impressive foot-work during matches.

I guess for a lot of people it’s best to always train certain principles/ideas like bringing your hands back to defend really quickly, always using foot-work, always keeping the chin down and eyes up, they are all good to practice all the time even on the heavy-bag, but it’s not necessarily a criticism of someone or a reflection of their foot-work to watch them work the heavy-bag and coming to some bizarre conclusion based on that alone.

If someone works the heavy-bag with some footwork for 40minutes, but they are working the focus pads day in day out, whatever judgement you come to based on a couple heavy-bag sessions may be inaccurate.[/quote]

Rookie dipshits who don’t know what they’re doing don’t work footwork on the bag.

Real boxers - people totally different than you - work the bag, and don’t let the bag work them. I know you don’t know what that means, and I ain’t gonna tell you, but other people do.[/quote]

Here’s the thing, Foreman in his prime was, if not the most powerful, then at least in the top 3 most powerful HW boxers of all time. He was also huge and could take a hell of a punch as well. This allowed him to be effective just wading into the fray and standing toe to toe with his opponents; overwhelming them with his superior power.

Nobody on this forum, and even very few who have ever competed in professional boxing have had the attributes to have the kind of success that Foreman had with that strategy. Heck, even when he came back years later and regained the HW title he used a lot more distancing, jabs, angles, and footwork because he realized that his age wouldn’t allow him to utilize the same strategy anymore.

So, trying to emulate Foreman’s strategy when hitting the heavy bag, or assuming that this is how most people should approach it is misguided for all but the most freaky among the freaks out there.

Here are a few examples of what some other very successful boxers hitting the heavy bag utilizing good footwork, angles, and not just standing in front of it pounding away. This is IMO a more effective way of using the heavy bag.

131

Yeah I have never seen anyone just stand and beat a heavy bag, except at maybe a fitness kickboxing class full of women. Movement is the key to being able to defend and to land the shots you want to so of course you are going to move around the bag and work angles etc.

132

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Yeah I have never seen anyone just stand and beat a heavy bag, except at maybe a fitness kickboxing class full of women. Movement is the key to being able to defend and to land the shots you want to so of course you are going to move around the bag and work angles etc.[/quote]

Even in the fitness kickboxing classes that I teach I try to include footwork into the combinations that I have the participants work on the bag. Sure, some of the women who take the class don’t listen to me and just stand there and punch the bag, but the majority of people at least make the attempt to follow my instructions. It’s not like involving footwork and head and body movements is going to make for any less effective of a workout (I’d actually argue that it makes for a better one).