Feminization of American Boys

[quote]Sonny S wrote:
What precisely is the breadth of your experience?

What are the # of schools you’ve frequented, # of teachers you’ve had, # of administrators you knew and if you’ve taught in the past (I know you are not presently a teacher from past threads) pls list those experiences as well.
[/quote]

If I thought you were asking honestly, and not just trying to discredit my opinion, I would spend the time to answer your questions.

I don’t, so I won’t. If you disagree with my opinion, great. More power to you.

You are certainly incorrect on one point, however. I do teach, although not at a public school.

[quote]doogie wrote:
I’ve taught kids as young as 4th grade in public schools (and as young as 4 years old at the Illinois School for the Deaf), and the experience made me a very strong advocate of all boys/girls classes.

It’s painful to watch some of these boys be made to feel like savages by their prissy, middle-aged female teachers. Instead of appealing to the boys’ “man-hood” and using it as to their advantage, these teachers try to squash it.

I’m definitely making sure my son is in a male teacher’s classroom at every opportunity. Even my daughter prefers male teachers. [/quote]

I’m with you on this one, Doogie, I would much prefer to see my sons with male teachers over females, if only for role model purposes outside of the home.

Here’s a thought to go with this thread - How many games that were acceptable and encouraged 25 years ago are still played in schools today. Think about it:
Dodgeball
Kill the guy with the ball
Asses up
Hell - The RANKING AND TRACKING OF STUDENTS has been stopped in some schools b/c they don’t want to hurt the egos.

Pussy fucking society.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
fos121 wrote:
A lot of great posts & I agree with most of them. Mostly I’ll be paraphrasing what’s already been said …

Holmdog raises a great point about raising gentlemen (not necessarily aggressive) which was how I was raised by my mother (HA!) and at my boys only boarding school. I read that there is nothing tougher than a true gentleman: considerate of women, ready to defend the weak, educated and resolute in standing up for what is right - BUT never offensive. I think this is what we are aiming for?

The problem appears to be endemic in western culture - the absolution of personal responsibility. Hence, relying on techers to shape our children’s characters through rediculous rules; suing a school if our child falls off monkey bars; schools needing insurance policies (sic); relying on MTV to show our boys how to behave like rappers and thugs with a very negative representation of manhood that the feminists react to (and who can blame them).

The solution? Already posted - stand up for what you believe in, get involved n ALL your childs activities (yes PTA too) and tell them firmly, in reasoned argument, why they are wrong. Don’t loose your rag, but be persistent.

By the way, the best moments of fatherhood yet: my 4yr old son intervening on behalf of a little girl who was being hit by a bigger boy - broke up the fight by just raising his fist. Then all the girls wanted to be ‘rescued’. Brought a tear to my eye …

Great post.

I was raised this way. But I have to say that some of this does not play out very well in our current culture.

…a true gentleman: considerate of women…

I opened a door for a women the other day, allowing her to enter first. She gave me a dirty look as she passed through the doorway ahead of me. She then looked back and said with a snarl that she was strong enough to open her own door!

I just smiled and kept walking…

I wonder as men become more feminine, are women becoming more masulcine?

[/quote]

I always hold the door for women and many times I get a look like that. I can only imagine that they feel that somehow belittling them. The funny thing is that I often hold the door for men, it just seems polite. I have never had a man glare at me for holding the door and they tend to be more polite about it.

As an aside, male or female, if someone holds the door for you it is proper to somehow acknowledge them. A small pet peeve is holding the door open for a group of women and they completly ignore me. I have never had a man walk through a door that I am holding open without at least the standard head nod.

[quote]kroc30 wrote:
Here’s a thought to go with this thread - How many games that were acceptable and encouraged 25 years ago are still played in schools today. Think about it:
Dodgeball
Kill the guy with the ball
Asses up
Hell - The RANKING AND TRACKING OF STUDENTS has been stopped in some schools b/c they don’t want to hurt the egos.

Pussy fucking society.[/quote]

You should see what they teach them in PE. Last year, I took my kids to a dance at the campground and my son was doing all these line dance. I was surprized that he knew them all. I asked where he learned them. He said in PE class.

[quote]kroc30 wrote:
Here’s a thought to go with this thread - How many games that were acceptable and encouraged 25 years ago are still played in schools today. Think about it:
Dodgeball
Kill the guy with the ball
Asses up
Hell - The RANKING AND TRACKING OF STUDENTS has been stopped in some schools b/c they don’t want to hurt the egos.

Pussy fucking society.[/quote]

Smear-the-queer. That was my favorite. Throw the ball up in the air and tackle whoever catches it. We would play that all day. Nothing like running for your life with 10 kids chasing you to build character and toughness.

The feminization of the American man is manfifestation of America’s power.

If we we’ren’t rich and powerful, we wouldn’t have the luxury of this monkey business.

That reason that we waste our time with this BS, and other types or BS, is because we are so strong.

The problem, as I see it, is that while we are the top dog who enjoys the luxury of monkey business, there are other countries (China, India) that want what we got. They are hungry. Is America hungry?

No, we got it. We dont have a fight. So what do we do? Monkey business.

Also, tempement is a huge factor. Lots of guys would be pussys even if their culture didn’t say that was the thing to be.

(Everyone is a pussy about something. The guy who is a tough street fighter turns to shit when he has to give a public speech, etc. Every tough guy has his vulnerable side.)

Also, saying your culture pusified you is taking the victim route.

I grew up in the PC culture and have no trouble challenging the PC BS.

You want proof?

When I was little, my mom always told me to quit playing with myself.

You think that stopped me?

I got one hand cupping my crotch right now as I type this.

Also, all these pussys are your competition for resources. I see that as a good thing for the strong willed individual.

[quote]dude-dilly squat wrote:
The feminization of the American man is manfifestation of America’s power.

If we we’ren’t rich and powerful, we wouldn’t have the luxury of this monkey business.

That reason that we waste our time with this BS, and other types or BS, is because we are so strong.

The problem, as I see it, is that while we are the top dog who enjoys the luxury of monkey business, there are other countries (China, India) that want what we got. They are hungry. Is America hungry?

No, we got it. We dont have a fight. So what do we do? Monkey business.

Also, tempement is a huge factor. Lots of guys would be pussys even if their culture didn’t say that was the thing to be.

(Everyone is a pussy about something. The guy who is a tough street fighter turns to shit when he has to give a public speech, etc. Every tough guy has his vulnerable side.)

Also, saying your culture pusified you is taking the victim route.

I grew up in the PC culture and have no trouble challenging the PC BS.

You want proof?

When I was little, my mom always told me to quit playing with myself.

You think that stopped me?

I got one hand cupping my crotch right now as I type this.

Also, all these pussys are your competition for resources. I see that as a good thing for the strong willed individual.
[/quote]

That was OK till the end. Now you are just a dork.

Guys, it’s our fault. Too much time at work, too much time playing poker with the other guys, too much time at strip clubs, too much time away from our kids. Who do kids look up to? MTV (the anti-christ). Find me a positive male role model on MTV. It’s either skinny-ass pussy dudes trying to rock out or ganster thugs with gold teeth.

Growing up, my dad was my hero. He was a career military officer (now I am too).

He was tough and demanding.

When my grades sucked, he made me study with him (he’s a doctor so he was ALWAYS studying something).

He encouraged me play all the sports I wanted (as long as I kept my grades up) even though he wasn’t very athletic.

I NEVER saw him lie, cheat or steal (he’s the most honest man I know).

He NEVER spoke badly about anyone in front of me.

If he saw a soda can lying in the street or on the beach he would pick it up (holy crap did that embarrass me but now I do it myself).

He spanked me, but first explained to me WHY I deserved it.

He went to EVERY game I played, even away games.

I was scared of him.

He trusted me enough to let me travel around Europe by myself for 2 weeks when I was 15 (actually my best friend went with me).

He had the “death look” when he was mad.

We were not “best friends”.

To this day I respect him more than any other person on the planet.

He has many faults that I do not emulate, but he is about a good as they get. He gave up a lot of personal desires to be there for me.

To be a dad you must give up many of your own interests in order to raise your own children.

[quote]holifila wrote:
ZEB wrote:
fos121 wrote:
A lot of great posts & I agree with most of them. Mostly I’ll be paraphrasing what’s already been said …

Holmdog raises a great point about raising gentlemen (not necessarily aggressive) which was how I was raised by my mother (HA!) and at my boys only boarding school. I read that there is nothing tougher than a true gentleman: considerate of women, ready to defend the weak, educated and resolute in standing up for what is right - BUT never offensive. I think this is what we are aiming for?

The problem appears to be endemic in western culture - the absolution of personal responsibility. Hence, relying on techers to shape our children’s characters through rediculous rules; suing a school if our child falls off monkey bars; schools needing insurance policies (sic); relying on MTV to show our boys how to behave like rappers and thugs with a very negative representation of manhood that the feminists react to (and who can blame them).

The solution? Already posted - stand up for what you believe in, get involved n ALL your childs activities (yes PTA too) and tell them firmly, in reasoned argument, why they are wrong. Don’t loose your rag, but be persistent.

By the way, the best moments of fatherhood yet: my 4yr old son intervening on behalf of a little girl who was being hit by a bigger boy - broke up the fight by just raising his fist. Then all the girls wanted to be ‘rescued’. Brought a tear to my eye …

Great post.

I was raised this way. But I have to say that some of this does not play out very well in our current culture.

…a true gentleman: considerate of women…

I opened a door for a women the other day, allowing her to enter first. She gave me a dirty look as she passed through the doorway ahead of me. She then looked back and said with a snarl that she was strong enough to open her own door!

I just smiled and kept walking…

I wonder as men become more feminine, are women becoming more masulcine?

I always hold the door for women and many times I get a look like that. I can only imagine that they feel that somehow belittling them. The funny thing is that I often hold the door for men, it just seems polite. I have never had a man glare at me for holding the door and they tend to be more polite about it.

As an aside, male or female, if someone holds the door for you it is proper to somehow acknowledge them. A small pet peeve is holding the door open for a group of women and they completly ignore me. I have never had a man walk through a door that I am holding open without at least the standard head nod.[/quote]

I too hold the door open for men on most occasions. When I arrive at a door at about the same time as someone, or just ahead of them.

I think some women are thinking that they have to NOT LIKE the idea of a man holding the door open. Some feel that they lose power somehow. Also, there is that feminist push which I think may have been bigger a few years ago than it is today.

I’m not really sure. Anyone else have a read on that?

As far as I’m concerned good manners never go out of style and I try to teach my children this by my own actions. Not that I am always a good example…but I try.

There’s nothing manly about raising an ignorant slob.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

There’s nothing manly about raising an ignorant slob.
[/quote]

Nice one, ZEB! That about sums it up. If there was a catch-phrase for us fathers to remember, it is that.

Zeb & PGJ,

Gentlemen. You are Gods amongst insects. Long may you flourish.

Instead of thinking a negative thought re: my intentions, why not simply ask me what my intentions are?

I honestly am interested in the breadth of your experience.

You have stated you’re a computer engineer and an SAT tutor, not a teacher. If that is not the case, and you are now teaching full-time, please say so.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Sonny S wrote:
What precisely is the breadth of your experience?

What are the # of schools you’ve frequented, # of teachers you’ve had, # of administrators you knew and if you’ve taught in the past (I know you are not presently a teacher from past threads) pls list those experiences as well.

If I thought you were asking honestly, and not just trying to discredit my opinion, I would spend the time to answer your questions.

I don’t, so I won’t. If you disagree with my opinion, great. More power to you.

You are certainly incorrect on one point, however. I do teach, although not at a public school.[/quote]

Thank you for that heartfelt response, some of the things you said I agree with or can identify with.

Other things I don’t and I’ll leave it at that.

However, you agreed with Nephorm when he said that schools “are run for the convenience of teachers and administrators,”

I’m asking for examples that prove/support those claims.

Those have not been presented yet.

Nephorm also said that schhols are not run "for the welfare or advancement of the children. At least, the latter is only a secondary concern.

How can you agree that teachers and administrators do not have the welfare of children in mind?
How can you agree that the advancement of children is at best a secondary concern?
You are saying that teachers don’t care much for the children,

What proof is there of this?
Because they give tests and grades? Giving a test and grading someone based on their work is HARMFUL to a child?

Setting expectations and expecting them to be met is HARMFUL?

And as far as the “who are you to judge me?” sentiment, that is classic teenage rebellion,

“Who are you to tell me what to do ? You ain’t my daddy. Why should I study? I don’t like Mrs. Donnelly, and I don’t like math. Why should I study? Why should I try? The system sucks, The homework is stupid. The teacher picks on Johnny, The teacher only calls on the popular kids. Down with the system! Why? Why? Why? The world has to prove itself to me, not the other way around!”

I understand where this is coming from. My senior quote was from Suicidal Tendencies:

“How you gonna judge me, you’ve never taken a walk in my shoes?”

Once you mature and get past those feelings, you maybe start to understand how things work, just as in every other area of life.

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
Sonny S wrote:
How old were you when you understood the system and made the decision to reject it?

And how did you reject it, what actions did you take or not take?

13 years old.

I rejected its values. Example: It’s emphasis on performance, acheving somebody else’s goals as opposed to developing your own standard of excellence, mechanical indoctrination of every child as opposed to a natural unfolding of their individual potential. Many kids in my school were highly intelligent but because the system didn’t allow for thier type of intelligence and learning style, those who were primarily visual learners or kinestetic learners, for instance, they were mocked for not meeting the grades that were only measured through auditory learnig. Not to mention the tactic intelligence of many who were gifted in sports and had to be made to sit through a lesson with a teacher who could only explain physics on a blackboard.

I could go on and on. I saw the cracks in the exam and grading system and felt insulted; how dare you measure my intelligence with your flawed “tests” and then blame me for not meeting the mark…

Out of teenage angst, I then went on to develop a method of cheating which was more sophisticated then the stupid questions I was made to answer as my way of beating the system. I also flunked many a exam and since I had previously had a brilliant record ( brilliant according to their standards which I had no respect for ) and was considered very intelligent ( again according to their standards ) teachers were baffled as to what went “wrong” with me. There was nothing wrong I just didn’t want to be part of a system which I felt wasn’t intelligent enough to accomodate mine and many other of my fellow students needs - and didn’t care to scrutinize their inadequate methods either - it was and it still is the fault of the child who “doesn’t achive” what the system requires of him/her. I befriended and spoke powerful words to the underdogs, children I knew had a star but were not allowed to develop their potential since the system clearly did not accomodate their learning style, the substance of their nature, their dynamic energy or the particular type of their creativity. Many turned to drugs and hurtful practices because the system had failed them. I lost respect for my “experts” and “superior authorities” and began to rely heavily on my own authority. And as far as guidance is concerned I travel solo - I trust that I will know what I need to know when I need to know it - and my experience has been the case. I am an independant thinker and I do not feel the need to have a piece of paper to prove the substance of the woman I am within. My mind is constantly expanding, what does it prove to me that I get a paper at the end of my stay in any educational institution? My intellect cannot be intitutionalized so I rejected the system that tells me I am someone only after being indoctrinated and “approved” by their mind. That’s a violation of my autonomy right there.

I did not and I still am not interested in meeting the world’s requirements - I let it be but I do not buy it.

I am unimpressed with our “style over substance” mentality. It matters not the substance of the man or woman that you could develop into to as long as you meet the world’s style of intelligence, beauty, athleticism, the substance is overlooked. Get that Phd, make it to the cover of Vogue, break a world record and you have arrived, nevermind that it may have cost the development of that childs true nature as a complete human being naturally unfolding and reaching his/her full potential, the system wants you to achieve and it wants it in its terms and it wants it now.

Hence drugs, cutting corners, neglecting your loved ones in the persuit of knowledge, sacrificing ones family to meet the unrelanting demands - and achieve more not TO BE MORE.

The schooling system is desingned for us to achieve more whilst at the same time become less of a human being.

I remain defiant and refuse to be bought into a system that will praise me and prize me as valueable for distorting my human nature and turning myself into a human machine or a puppet ( Paris Hilton ). No child should be made to feel they have to “prove themselves” to anyone. Accomplishment, yes. Achievement, no. The system carves the image and then expects us to worship it. I want to be an accomplished human being not an achievement machine.

Let the deficiency be theirs not ours.

I don’t need a prize. The world can keep its trophy.

[/quote]

AlphaF:

If you have children and don’t want them to be educated the way you were, you may want to consider Montessori method schools, if there are some in your area.

The downside of them is that they can be expen$ive and that your children MAY have problems when it comes time to apply for college.

And also, once they move onto college, there are only a handful that do not have a rigid structure and grading system.
Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass. is one of them.

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
If my husband had written a “creative” article exposing his sexual betrayal of me to the public I would cut his balls off.

[/quote]

Fuck Hillary, I want to vote for you!
:wink:

HH

[quote]Sonny S wrote:

Thank you for that heartfelt response,

However, you agreed with Nephorm when he said that schools “are run for the convenience of teachers and administrators,”

I’m asking for examples that prove/support those claims.

Those have not been presented yet.

Nephorm also said that schhols are not run "for the welfare or advancement of the children. At least, the latter is only a secondary concern.
[/quote]

You are welcome, Sonny S.

I feel we could start a whole new thread on what Nephorm said. It was a big issue for me and as I said in my post it was from personal experience hence the hearfelt response. I cannot supply the evidence you ask for since I have never looked into this issue objectively, that is why I can only give my subjective experience.

Objectively speaking I’d say the school system is well suited for 2/3 of the temperaments I have observed in children.

To keep it simple and concise I would identify three groups;

  1. Those who PRIMARILY want security
  2. Those who PRIMARILY want attention
  3. Those who PRIMARILY want autonomy

The school system is primarily designed for those who want to work within the security of a system - which is group #1 above. Secondarily for those who want to work outside the system but want to take advantage of what it has to offer - which is group #2 above. Group #3 usually has the most difficulty with the schooling system for the simple reason that most teachers see themselves as security anchors, attention officers and control figures - group #3 wants none of that, they want space to develop the confidence they already know they have and guidance from a watchful distance allowing them to figure things out BY THEMSELVES, or out of respect for their creative curiosity and autonomous nature.

Take that to an adult scenario.

Boundaries = school system

Lets say for the sake of simplicity there are three kinds of people:

1.Those who want to stay within the boundaries.

2.Those who like to push the boundaries ( but still like to benefit from it )

3.Those who set new boundaries

Group number three usually works outside the system owning themselves in a more absolute sense.
It isn’t that they arrogantly and angrily say; “who are you to judge me?”
The system just simple cannot contain them because they do not want to be contained.

The security and attention that grades and diplomas provide means a lot less if anything to them because what they want PRIMARILY is neither security nor attention but SPACE to be themselves and carve their own place in the world.

This may sound amazing to some of you but there are people who are exceptionally talented and intelligent who do not actually care about revealing themselves because of the intense boredom of living in a society which is so weak, insecure and insubstancial. You may be one of them and not know, which is why you lack motivation to “achieve”.

Boys specially cannot develop true masculinity when his own territory is constantly being invaded by a system that doesn’t encourage self confidence or fosters true autonomy with leadership qualities. Men more than women need to own their minds and have the space to develop their energy.

I do not want to marry a man who doesn’t know how to take the lead.

Apologies for going off topic but at the depth of masculinity and femininity lies the fact that if we were allowed to become true men and women a lot of institutions ( teachers and administrators ) would go out of fashion and out of business. On a more profound note what Nephorm said “schools are run for the convinience of teachers and administrators” might just reveal a greater truth that maybe the system is PRIMARILY self-serving.

[quote]Sonny S wrote:

Once you mature and get past those feelings, you maybe start to understand how things work, just as in every other area of life.

[/quote]

[quote]Sonny S wrote:

“How you gonna judge me, you’ve never taken a walk in my shoes?”

Once you mature and get past those feelings, you maybe start to understand how things work, just as in every other area of life.

[/quote]

It isn’t about judgement. It’s about discernement.

Do you discern, in your maturity, how thinks are working in the world today?

The very topic of this thread is how things are not working for the boys in America.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Alpha F wrote:
If my husband had written a “creative” article exposing his sexual betrayal of me to the public I would cut his balls off.

Fuck Hillary, I want to vote for you!
:wink:

HH

[/quote]

Hillary is hardfluff. I am hardcore.

; )

Alpha F