Fat loss.

Experts? Absolutely not. I’m no expert. Neither are you, buddy. I’m just someone who refuses to believe that fat people are “destined” to be that way because of their genes. Why are there more fat people per capita now than at any time during human history? Have we seen a genetic drift towards obesity in the last 100 years? Sorry, but it takes a LOT longer than that for something like this to occur. The reason we have more fat people now is simple: we now have access to huge quantities of mass produced, poor quality food, and we don’t exercise enough. It’s not a “theory”, its the way things are. Eat less calories than you burn, and you will lose weight. When you go off your diet, stop exercising (or at least exercise less intensely) and resume eating what you did before, guess what? You gain the weight right back. It’s no mystery. What is a mystery, however, is how and why you don’t see the gaping holes in your logic.

“...exercise doesn't seem to impact much on body composition. Not many build muscle and not many fat people lose fat...” You’re right. Know why? These people have it wrong. The answer is DIET (i.e. what you routinely put in your mouth). Get that right and results will come, guaranteed.

“Most people give up after 3 months of training.” Right again. Most people are quitters. Sad, but true. I refuse to be one.

“Bodybuilders have great physiques...” Which we BUILD through weight training, rigorous cardiovascular training, and proper diet. Some of us are born with a genetic predisposition for muscularity (mesomorphs), some of us are predisposed to be “skinny” (ectomorphs) and some people are genetically predisposed to carry extra adipose tissue (endomorphs). There is no one “pure type”; everyone falls somewhere within these three ranges. And EVERYONE is capable of radically changing their appearance. All it takes is will and discipline, two qualities that, sadly, are in short supply today.

“How sad is it that drug use has proliferated into every gym in the world...” Do you REALLY believe this? And even among the gyms whose patrons do use physique enhancing substances, where does the sadness figure in? Judicious use of ergogens, believe it or not, can be a GOOD thing, enhancing the quality of life of the user. Just ask pretty much any gold medal winning Olympic athlete from the past twenty years. Or do you believe that they got on the Wheatie’s box without some kind of “chemical assistance”?

“But the truth is the public doesn't respect or even appreciate the physiques that the champion men and women build.” Stick around this board long enough and you’ll find that most of the regular posters here don’t find those physiques particularly appealing either. I think they look just plain gross.

My problem with NAAFA is that they discourage folks from even trying to change their situation for the better. It is a defeatist attitude that only serves to soothe the feelings of people who, more than anything, need encouragement and guidance. I HAVE been fat. I know what it’s like to suck wind after 1 lap around the track. I know what it’s like to have stretch marks on my stomach. Through judicious diet and rigorous exercise, those stretch marks are now on my arms and chest. I did it naturally. I feel 100% better. Anyone, if they are committed, can do this.

I don’t like it when T-Maggers go to the NAAFA board and slam them with deliberately hurtful posts. But you must remember that if you spout enough bullshit, sooner or later, someone is going to call you on it. Don’t get mad when we burst your bubble. You listed a few degrees, there, Vince. You may want to contact those schools and ask for a refund.

Also, if your writing is typical of the direction that Ironman is heading, I’m glad I discovered this website over a year ago. Have a nice day. I need to fix a protein shake.

Vince, I’m not attempting to flame or anything, but by your definition of an expert, does that mean that this disqualifies Vince Gironda and Dan Duchaine?

Vince, I think that your goals are laudable and I understand your reason for being here. However, I do not agree with everything you state. We are not talking about taking a 400 pound woman and turning her into a runway model (I don’t know what woman would want to look like that anyway). But to say that they cannot take weight off permanently is wrong. Explain to me how the laws of physics do not apply to obese populations. The truth is that if you burn more calories than you consume, you lose weight. If you train properly (i.e., heavy resistance training) and do not go on a starvation diet, the vast majority (if not all) of weight loss is fat and not muscle. Most trainees, even those that are not novices to training, do not apply Seyle’s General Adaptive Syndrome. Do these women (most of whom probably eschew resistance training) continually cause their body’s to be alarmed such that adaptation occurs… probably not. Most likely fall victim to the aerobics mentality. And why is it that obese women cannot train with weights? Sure they can. As a matter of fact, it is probably easier for them to do so than someone who is in good shape because they (at least early on) do not have to go to a gym to do so. Except in extreme cases, everyone can squat. Beginners to resistance training will show hypertrophy adapations to weights as low as for 40% of the trainee’s 1 RM. Guess what, for many obese women, this mean bodyweight squats through as large a ROM as is comfortable, increasing the reps or ROM each time. I am curious how many of these obese women who have tried to lose the weight with weight training tried to do it with pink dumbbells and performing 20 reps of tricep kick-backs. If an untrained obese woman performs resistance training with real weights for three months and follows a moderately calorie restrictive diet (say 300-500 kcal below maintanance) are you telling me that you do not think that she would lose 10 lbs of fat and maintain or slightly increase her LBM? Now what if, instead of 3 months, it became 3 years (applying Seyle’s law to her training)? Are you telling me that an obese woman would not lose well over a 100 pounds most likely while improving her LBM and thus speeding her metabolism? It is all well and good to accept people for who they are regardless of race, sex, ethnicity, or socio-economic status or bodyfat. It is quite another to engage in coddling and fantasy about the realities of what can be done with the human body. There are certain populations that are super adaptors and some that are not, but physics doesn’t change because an individual is fat. I think any organization for fat people (even if its main purpose is to promote acceptance) that does not encourage healthy fat loss (the key term being “healthy”) but rather states that it cannot be done permanently and forbids a discussion of exercise and nutrition for fat loss is doing its members an incredible disservice. I firmly believe that most of the women over at that NAAFA site are miserable with how they look and rather than come to terms with that and what can be done to help, they try to repeat this mantra of “it’s just the way we are and nothing can be done about it”. This is the sort of thinking that causes a lawsuit by this obese aerobics instructor woman in San Francisco because she was denied a job as an instructor. Oh for shame on the aerobics studio for wanting to hire a woman that is a model to the participants. Fine, maybe there is a market for a plus-sized aerobics instructor, but let the market sort it out, not the courts. Sorry, this woman may be a friend of yours, but just because she has a heart healthy enough to teach a dozen jazzercise courses doesn’t mean she knows a damn thing about health or changing body composition (obviously). I will not go to Richard Simmons to teach me about powerlifting or olympic weightlifting (no matter what his credentials), I will go to Louie Simmons and Dragomir. I have a question for you which no one has yet to answer… what is the purpose of NAAFA? To me it seems like an organization that started with a noble purpose (to help those with low self esteem due to weight issues) which became bastardized into something very different – what, I am not quite sure. But it certainly became bastardized into something that refuses to accept that female cheerleaders need to be below a certain weight in order to be safely thrown into the air by mail cheerleaders (there was a discussion thread along this line here some weeks ago). It is plain silly for any group to be offended by this. I am 5’7" – maybe it is unfair that I would be overlooked for basketball teams. I agree that it mean-spirited for people to go to the NAAFA site and tease them (I am sure they have had enough of this in their lives), but this post about a woman not being able to clean herself in the toilet is truly sad asssuming it is true. I think the worse culprits are the co-enablers at the NAAFA site who refuse to suggest that it is time for this woman to lose weight particularly when she can no longer perform basic functions of hygene.

Vince, way to go disputing thermodynamics… most of you know what I’m alluding to :slight_smile:

I will try to answer many of the points raised in the responses to my posts.

Concerning my education. I topped my class in third year at UBC when I did 18 units of arts and PE. I did a couple of courses at the masters level in exercise physiology. I also taught PE in high school in Australia. Am I an expert in maximizing hypertrophy? Yes and no. From my research and experience, probably yes. From academic qualifications, obviously no. However, there is no one who has a PhD in this area. Yet. Perhaps some day someone might gain that distinction and many might follow.

I believe I have enough knowledge to identify true bodybuilding experts. People like Arthur Jones, Mike Mentzer, Ellington Darden, Fred Hatfield, others I haven’t mentioned, and a few of the Doctors who do research in the area. Perhaps there are less that 20 experts in the world.

On the one hand we have the bodybuilding community that has beliefs, traditions and even a special language. The theories work and anyone who follows the proper protocols will build muscle. Exercise, nutrition and recovery are all important. I accept that. There seem to be several methods that work and there is nothing wrong with that.

There is also a fat community online and these people are not lazy, weak-willed or stupid. Most cannot or do not choose to bodybuild. I have written an article in Dimensions Magazine about how bodybuilding can help them. I tell them that they can be stronger, fitter and healthier. Often it is possible to change body composition.

That much is clear. Now, if the fat community tells you that they have tried just about everything and it didn’t work are we going to call these people liars? If you listen to the fat people they insist that things that work for bodybuilders don’t work for them. You know we all know that there is almost no research done on bodybuilders. There is also not much done on very fat people. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe the people who do research have typical prejudices and are not interested in big muscles or fat.

Do I believe that fat people can lose fat? In principle, yes. Are they likely to do so? I doubt it. That is what they are telling me. Now, if we got together in a friendly way and did one on one personal training with a fat person maybe we could help them and see results. Don’t forget that most of the people at the NAAFA board are women and they don’t respond to bodybuilding like most men do. Also the older women are not going to be able to do the training. Maybe with persistence over a long time measured in years they might. However that is a severe “cure” for them.

Size acceptance or fat acceptance is controversial with some people. That is fair enough. No doubt bodybuilding is too! The idea is that it is okay to be any size and therefore okay to be fat. Not all fat people are unhealthy or unfit. Many do not mind being large. There are also men who prefer large women. Of course that is no reason why a woman should want to be fat! Just keep in mind that not everyone wants a lean partner.

Size acceptance also fights against the discrimination against fat people. This is a just cause. They also do not like to see fat people blamed and ridiculed for their condition. Yes, many fat people do not like being fat but can accept that it is not a sin to be so. That they assemble on a discussion board and support each other is a positive thing. From time to time there are discussions about exercise and the benefits to be had. Many are doing various forms of exercise but many also complain that gyms don’t have equipment that accommodates them or staff who know how to treat them. Why should everyone assume that fat people go to gyms to lose fat? They are usually put on boring machines such as bikes and treadmills for long periods of time to burn the fat. It is any wonder that they are not going to stick with this or get results? Some do aqua-aerobics and I believe any exercise is a positive. Most cannot do the aerobic classes because they cannot keep up or feel uncomfortable in groups. Many complain that others seem to stare at them and they do not like to feel like that so stay away.

As everyone knows most people do not exercise, so it is not only fat people. You all have to agree that a lot of fat people do go to gyms and are active in other ways. When you stop and think about it how are women who weigh over 300 or 400 pounds supposed to do exercise? That is a lot of weight to carry on their usually small frames. They overheat more easily than thin people and also get tired sooner. All things that make training unpleasant.

I wish I had the answers. So far what bodybuilding has to offer doesn’t appeal to fat people. Yes, there is a lot of misinformation and ignorance about what happens in gyms and which exercise methods are the best. Maybe more fat people should do resistance training instead of aerobic work on machines. That would be a change that would suit them. You know, do a set and then rest. But you all know what the theories about fat loss are and recommend. I guess we need a paradigm change at the university level before it is going to be passed down to the gyms. Maybe equipment companies market machines for fat loss so that they sell more of them.

I posted here partly because I saw Jasons post and partly because some of the women wondered what the bodybuilding boards would feel like if someone came here and challenged the people about things opposite to what is accepted and believed.

I honestly feel that full figured women are more attractive than slender ones. But that is another subject altogether. I thank the good people here who responded in a fair and intelligent manner. I was pleased to see so many sensible comments among the few that were needlessly negative.

“I posted here partly because I saw Jasons post and partly because some of the women wondered what the bodybuilding boards would feel like if someone came here and challenged the people about things opposite to what is accepted and believed.”

What challenge? As Matt and Robert N. pointed out, you’re not arguing with us, you’re arguing with the laws of thermodynamics. While you’re at it, why don’t you challenge the theory of gravity (it IS only a theory after all) by levitating? Sorry, but you haven’t challenged anything. A challenge implies that one side’s argument has enough credibility to topple the other. You don’t.

“If you listen to the fat people they insist that things that work for bodybuilders don't work for them.” Uhh, okay Vince, what magical metabolic processes are we talking about here? A hypocaloric diet combined with a progressive resistance and cardiovascular training program? This doesn’t work for everyone? Perhaps next you’d like to argue that the moon is made of green cheese. You can do that. But don’t expect anyone to take your “challenge” seriously.

My suspicion is that you have a fat fetish (you’ve alluded to this at least twice) and you’re trying to impress the heavier ladies by “sticking up” for them in a public forum. Don’t get me wrong, I like curves on my woman, but there is a difference between voluptuous and morbidly obese. There is also a better way to bed the women that you find attractive: take them to a coffee shop.

I raise the bullshit flag on this one. I was WELL over 30% BF last year, and I’ve dropped close to 70 pounds of pure fat since then. It was easy - all I had to do was shut my damn pie hole and haul my ass into the gym 3 times a week.

And if you don’t want me or an example, just look at Jared from Subway! :slight_smile:

I have to throw in my two cents. I saw a program on the Discovery channel about the obese. The greatest piece of information I obtained from that program was that obese people are, for the most part, great at fooling themselves and everyone around them.

What do I mean? Take, for example, the case of the man who weighed 1200 pounds! When asked by the doctors about his eating habits, he replied in a dead-pan voice that “I don’t understand my weight because I really don’t eat that much.”

His breakfast consisted of a dozen eggs, a pound of bacon, two loaves of bread, and a box of cereal with milk. And he claims he doesn’t eat a lot? GET REAL!!!

Most of these people are in denial. Instead of committing to the goal to be healthier, they fool themselves into thinking that they’re doing everything they can, when in reality they’re doing very little to help their situation.

Ask a typical fat person what they had for lunch and they’ll say a salad. What they don’t tell you is that the salad weighed about 10 pounds and had chicken, bacon, and a whole bottle of some type of fat-ridden dressing.

I do have empathy for the obese. It’s sad to go through life like that. But if you want to change your life, there are ways in which to do it. “Nothing works for me” has not been, or will it ever be, an excuse to be over weight.

If this is your idea of a challenge then you may want to try a little harder. As for your “expertise”, most of us wouldn’t wipe our asses with ironman, the rest just look at the pretty pictures, so having two articles published in it means dick to us. If you do know your stuff you failed to prove it in your posts. Most of us on this forum do not want the freaky, build of pros, rather more of an athletic build, and or increase physical strength. “TRAINING AND NUTRITION” is the name of this forum. The reason the people at NAAFA diet and fail is because they do not know what they are doing. This site has the answers if they are willing to listen. Is it going to be easy to lose all the fat? No way ,but if a person works hard and sticks to the program it will happen. You may want to check out some of the articles yourself, then maybe you can try to “CHALLENGE” us again.

I was going to stay out of this, as for the most part, I believe in minding my own business and not concerning myself with others behavior unless their behavior directly effects me…and in this case it has been proven that these peoples behavior…and that is what it is…they have chosen a behavior of a sedentary lifestyle with complete disregard to the many years of the medical community and other constant sources and reminders of the health effects and consequences of never ever exercising in any manner and then eating what ever and when ever they damn please and then trying to say it’s not their fault. And every where you look, there is constant information on healthy and unhealthy lifestyles and how to exercise and how to eat…but they simplely either don’t care or don’t want to make the effort. So how does this effect me? The government and medical community has studied the problem (and that is what they’re causing - a problem) and concluded that over 60% of America is obese and obesity is now the leading health care cost in the US. My future health care costs (if I’ll be able to afford them) will go up dramatically to help defray the costs that these people’s lifesyles are causing. And now that is effecting me. They went after tobacco for that reason and now they are saying this obesity is going to cost us way more than tobacco. And chosing not to exercise and to over eat junk is a behavior just like smoking. I’m tired of having to pick up the costs of others who cann’t show responsibility for their behavior.

Uh Vince, I’m not too pleased with your reference to older women not wanting to lift weights. I’m just short of 50 and love it! And no I haven’t been doing it for years, just since January actually. I’m still on hand weights, but in 10 weeks have doubled or tripled the weight and reps that I can do (curling 45 lbs for biceps, for example–started with 8 or 9 lb dumbells). My body has changed considerably and I have lost about 10 pounds or so. And as for water aerobics–my experience with that (and I used to teach it) is that it is great cardio for the heart, but most fat people just float in the pool and never work hard enough to work off very many calories. But, you’re right, at least they are doing something. I think a large part of the problem is that just doing something seems to satisfy many overweight people. They rarely put in the full effort required to really accomplish any weight loss. Our neighbour is fat and instead of using a hand mower he has a ride on mower. So he buys a dog to make himself go out for walks, but the dog he gets is one of those annoying little yappy things that gets tired just running around the house. Go figure. Even shovelling snow is done with a blower rather than a shovel. How is he supposed to burn calories that way? It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort and you’re right when you say that most people give up after 3 months. But why should fat people be excused for giving up?

Anybody, with the right information and dedication, can lose weight. It’s BS that these fat people can’t lose weight no matter what they do.

I have some friends who are fat. They workout and then drink a huge fruit smoothie cuz it’s “healthy” and they just “burned a lot of calories and now feel hungry”. Now tell me why they still can’t lose weight?

These people claim to diet. So where is their food log to show how many calories they ate? Most of them munch on things without realizing. Sure, they skip breakfast and lunch, but they SNACK here and there. And eat calorie-dense dinner. Can we say “Sumo” diet?!

They didn’t become obese overnight. The fact that they let themselves go this long without realizing that they’re screwing w/ their own health and fitness shows that they’re blind fools. And most of them dont’ wnat to work out hard. So don’t come cry to me about how they’re fat and I should love them the way they are cuz I don’t love them for being fat. And dont’ tell me I have to bear the cost of obesity, which is the result of their laziness and inability to stop stuffing their pie holes.

One doesn’t need to be an expert to offer advice on losing fat. It’s common sense. Most fat people are smart enough to know how to lose weight. Some of them want to lose the weight enough, but most don’t.

For those of you fired-up over this issue, this probably isn’t going to help things much…

http://dailynews.netscape.com/ mynsnews/story.tmpl?table=n&cat= 50700&id=200204021447000141372

Ok, you don’t like people making fun of obese individuals; hooray for you Mr. Vasile. I don’t either; as a matter of fact, i don’t like to see anyone deliberatly attacking another person with their words, regardless of the direction of their comment. But to say that some of these people can’t do anything about it, that’s simply “bull shit.” If your obese, and you like that look, then that’s one thing; but if you are obese, and wish to change, you can, with a few medical exceptions. By implenting proper dieting techniques and exercise, one can radically change his/her physique. I have done it, and have helped many others do it. Period. As far as those that have “tried everything” and failed…i would really be interested in finding out exactly all the things they have tried. Anthony Ellis was on the other end of the spectrum, “i could never gain weight no matter what i tried;” then somehow he packed on 32 lbs. of solid mass in 12 weeks naturally (www.musclegaintips.com). I myself was in the same boat, no matter what i tried, i could never lose the fat, or gain muscle. Now i’m 30 lbs. more muscular, and much leaner than i was a year ago. Why? Because i found out how to achieve my goals. No, not everyone has to bodybuild, but everyone has the potential to change, through diet and exercise, whatever their individual goals may be.

IMO, the reason the government is doing this is to encourage people to get heathlier as the government realizes that obesity is the leading cost of health care at this time according to recent reports and so the government has woken up and realized that we will all have to either pay now or pay later for increased health care costs and realize that it is always cheaper to pay now before we bankrupt the system. See my previous post. It will be cheaper if it motivates people to action and hopefully they carry it through to succeed. I don’t have a problem with it if it actually works. In reality though, it will fail because people need to succeed on their own motivation - need to see the true benefit not just see it as a way for another tax break. Another government idea with good intentions but flawed reasoning.

Let’s talk about the laws of physics. Well, extra energy gets stored in the body as fat. I accept that. At least this is what is taught in exercise science and PE. The laws of physics most assuredly applies to all human beings. Others will argue about this but I do not.

Many have suggested that I do not believe that all fat people can be helped either through exercise, dieting or a combination of both. I do believe that everyone can be helped. It is possible. I have argued this point on the NAAFA board. It is possible to reverse obesity.

Now, what are the laws of physics concerning all obese people? It seems that many store fluids and that contributes to the obese state. Fluid storage or edema is not storing extra energy. How then does one get rid of this extra fluid? Well, it requires expert medical advice and treatment I suppose. Some bodybuilders fool around with diuretics but I do not advocate using such substances.

Yes, there is a body of information that exists in the minds of scientists and people who have gotten results from training. Yes, this knowledge and information can most certainly help fat people. I believe that. However, there are practical problems when we want to apply this information. For a start most people have their own theories about how to exercise and what is best for them. They will usually have silly ideas about what is advisable to do. When we suggest that people would benefit from practicing a bodybuilding lifestyle what exactly does that mean? Most people have a concept that bodybuilders spend hours every day obsessing over their bodies. Some do but not very many. I believe that an hour every second day is adequate and some do even less than that. Doctors and exercise scientists recommend doing some activity daily for perhaps 20 minutes to half an hour. Do something until you work up a sweat. So there are lots of things people can do. Going to a gym is just one choice.

Being a gym owner for over 30 years and around bodybuilders for 43 years I have come to see how few actually succeed in getting good results. Oh, I believe lots of things that might account for the lack of results. Young men usually have no idea about eating enough to grow. You tell them but they don’t believe you. Most drop out without discovering the beauty and strength that their bodies are capable of. This was written on the temples in ancient Greece so things haven’t changed in 2500 years!

Are some people destined to be fat just living in America? That 60% figure refers to “overweight” and “obese” people. Those categories are calculated by taking one’s weight and comparing it to height. Bodybuilders are scored as overweight or obese but those tables do not apply to them as we all discover when we go for medical checks. I believe the actual figure for obese people is about 33%. That is cause for concern. That means that everyone has a better than average chance to be overweight. Your partner is likely to be, too. That is what the statistics tell us.

We have this knowledge but most of the public are either unaware or do not know how to benefit from applying it. That is what has been argued on this board. I agree that most people are not informed about effective bodybuilding. However, the fat people at NAAFA are not ignorant or uninformed. Somewhere along the line we have a problem. The fat people will not accept the information that bodybuilders swear will help them. And bodybuilders will not accept that fat people cannot reduce their fat percentage through applying their information.

Who is right? Well, that is the question. That is also why we have several discussion boards. There are plenty of places such as Weight Watchers who do accept that fat people can and will change if they apply their information. There are sites dedicated to bodybuilding and all certainly believe everyone can alter body composition and build muscle. They believe that the capacity to build muscle is far more than the public imagine.

What then do we do in the “stalemate”? It is my hope that NAAFA will alter some of their statements about exercise and fat loss and not be seen to be against exercise science, medicine, gyms, and dietitians. The attitudes are changing but they still are mainly a supportive and anti-discrimination body. I support what they are doing and am contributing in a small way to inform them about things I have strong opinions about.

I am not the enemy of either party and it has being interesting being challenged by the bodybuilding community for holding the same beliefs as they have. Similar beliefs, anyway.

I have not been playing Devil’s Advocate here. I have been trying to explain the viewpoint of the fat people and how difficult it is for most of them to change their bodies. Exercise and dieting should work with fat people but the truth is results have not been consistent or significant. I suppose once more fat people present at gyms then we might learn more about how to help them and keep them motivated.

Lots of people do not get the results they want from training. I have read that here in this thread. Until some really huge commitment and effort was expended nothing much happened.
Well, folks, the fat people have been there and done that. That is the truth. They might not have done it the way we would recommend but most have certainly given it a good show. Most people drop out of gyms. That is a fact. That fat people drop out is just part of the typical behaviour and has nothing to do with fatness. I really believe we should be a bit more informed before we pontificate about how easy it is to change bodies and lose large amounts of fat. The theory is rather simple. But the application is not. It is not easy!

Vince, I’ve got a few problems here. Firstly, you never stop to address how these people got so fat in the first instance. I can’t put words into your mouth, but it’s as if you think they just woke up fat one day after “trying” all these diet and exercise plans. Let us be realistic: They put on weight by years upon years of eating badly and exercising minimally at most.

This is directly related to my second problem. You said that all these obese people have attempted these diets, and then 3-5 years later they weigh the same or more. COuld this possibly be because they only tried crash diets, which they wouldn’t stick to, rather than adopting sensible, healthy eating plans such as the one Brider suggested earlier (figuring out their maitenance level and eating about 500 fewer calories a day)? What sort of 2-week cure is supposed to be able to affect my weight at all 3-5 years later if I return to eating Twinkies and Doritoes immediately upon finishing my all-juice starvation diet?

This in turn relates to the next problem, which is that these fat people also do not stick with any sort of exercise program that will work. They start exercising for a short period of time and then quit. If it’s hard, they won’t do it. I note you object to putting them on “boring machines” and blame the programs for the lack of will exhibited by these obese people. I’m sorry that the exercise isn’t “fun” enough for them. If they could sprint without having a heart attack, that would be great, but they can’t. No one ever promised that exercising would be as fun and entertaining as the alternative activity of sitting on the couch and chain-eating double-stuff oreos, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work if one could get them to actually stick to a program that required them to exercise hard enough to sweat and burn calories. I challenge you to find me one fat person who has stuck with an exercise program and eaten at a sensible caloric level for 3-5 years and tell me he or she weighs as much as when he or she started.

There is no magic science to it, and the recommendations for losing weight aren’t “bodybuilder” recommendations. It’s physics and chemistry: If they eat it, and they don’t burn it, they sit on it. Sure, if you want to get ripped up and lower bodyfat to 10% or under, there are different things one can do. But telling fat people to eat less and exercise on a regular basis is hardly bodybuilder wisdom – it’s common sense. Even telling them to eat fewer highly processed carbs to control their insulin responses can hardly be considered bodybuilder wisdom – it’s just biochem.

And that segues to my last problem. You assume that this site is all for bodybuilders – it’s not. It’s so much more than that. Sure, there are bodybuilders, but there are also powerlifters, o-lifters, athletes, martial artists, and amateur weightlifters who all want to know more about techniques, nutrition and weightlifting to help them attain their particular goals. What it’s not full of is people who have a whole lot of patience for “poor me” stories from people who lack the willpower to adopt the long-term lifestyle changes of eating less and exercising more necessary in order to drop the weight necessary to wipe their own asses. Out.

Well, Vince, you haven’t responded to my point about Brock’s test subject. And just for your information, my mother took up weights for the first time five years ago (at age 65) and has made some very positive changes to her physique - including losing a fair amount of fat. So much for older women “not being able to exercise”…

So fat people can't use standard exercise equipment and are too afraid of ridicule to go to a gym? Fair enough. But one thing that anyone can do in the privacy of his or her own home is log onto this site and start educating themselves. How many NAAFA members are willing to do that? And then act on the info? Yeah, that's what I thought.

To the rest of the Forum: My feeling is that we won't be hearing much from ol' challenging Vince much anymore...

This is great. I’m glad I brought NAAFA to everyone’s attention last month. I found it by searching the web for “fat acceptance”…never expected to see something this funny though! The lady that can’t wipe her own ass is classic!