Fat Loss Training Questions

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I find it odd how often my success is used to discredit my methods, haha.[/quote]

Is that what I did? Not my intention. Results speak for themselves.

But the OP is not getting the results he wants.[/quote]

Absolutely, but I would also say he’s not employing the method I advocate. I feel that what I have experienced would also work for an overweight person looking to lose weight.

Very often I see it expressed that the methods employed by successful people worked in spite of the person’s effort due to other variables, and it just leaves me confused.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I would never utilize conditioning as a fat loss aid. I think cardio has a place in that regard, but even then I think it’s better saved as an ace in the hole once someone has made substantial dietary changes and is no longer able to elicit a desired response from nutrition alone. If you use all of your tools right at the start, you kind of put yourself in a hole when you hit a stall. If you’ve always got something that can be added or modified, you never run out of room/time.

That’s just me though. There are a lot of folks on here that have achieved some pretty insane fat loss.
[/quote]

Ah, that makes sense. The most I’ve ever cut was about 8 lbs to get down to 144 lbs at 10% body fat. It took about 8 weeks and I was able to use conditioning because I didn’t have much to lose, I was a lot weaker, and didn’t have the best diet (only thought protein was important). I assumed a focus on conditioning would work well for others but I didn’t think about the other factors being different, haha.

That was probably 7 years ago and now I just do small 1-2 month cycles of gaining and cutting to recomp and gain muscle over time. Still figuring out the water cut stuff.

Well before anyone debates further about what works and what doesn’t, I should clarify the origin of the weight gain. This is a long and detailed time line:

November of 2012
I was “diagnosed” with a mood disorder and prescribed a cocktail of medications. Initially the doses were low but I quickly felt the cognitive side effects: a significant loss of energy and inability to concentrate. At this time I was in pretty good shape for a beginner - 195lbs, 315lb deadlift (grip was weak point), 260x5 squat, 225lb bench press, 145lb overhead press (was stuck for a long time) and about a 33" waist. Not big numbers but I feel I was really on track to a good future - in graduate school for a PhD program in aerospace engineering (hence my name), good letters of rec and references/network, and of course in good shape.

Fast forward a few months:
Initially the weight gain was only like 5lbs or so since the doses were low, but I really wasn’t feeling better and doubted the need for any medications. At this point since I was lacking stamina I stopped going to the gym as frequently but still maintained the same weight…replaced some muscle with fat. This lack of “progress” with the medication lead the “doctor” to prescribe more medications to “treat” me and this is where things got ugly.

Summer of 2013
I started gaining weight fast. I went from the 195lbs in the above paragraph to about 220. I was gaining an average of 1-2lbs a week with no diet changes. When I brought this concern to the “doctor”, I was told that “I would get used to it” and “my body needs to adjust”. At this point in time I was so tired that during my summer job I would go into the break room and pass out, twice I slept for two hours through my lunch. In a backwards way I was lucky because I worked second shift and regularly did not get out until 11 when not too many people were around. I was also slipping badly in school and with working out. I just did not have the energy to do much more than go to work, sit on the couch, and sleep. I was also losing my ability to think creatively, which I began documenting extensively. My self confidence started slipping. I started feeling like a useless person. I had to drop out of classes because I couldn’t get the work done. I tried to commit suicide twice, believing that the series of events had ruined my life and everything I worked for. I’m not convinced they haven’t to tell you the truth.

Fall of 2013
Still on the medications. Went up to a 36" waist, lost a lot of strength. I could not accept that I would have to leave graduate school. I was working on a topic I absolutely loved and wanted to devote my life too. Against my better judgment and through some bad advice from the “doctor”, I reenrolled in the graduate program. I did not realize how significantly the medications were affecting my cognition, memory, and energy levels as I had a terrible time organizing my thoughts. I ended up dropping two classes but staying in one. One day I took my “medication” at the wrong time by mistake and passed out in the middle of the professors class. Literally, my head fell down on the desk and it was lights out for an hour. I woke up, walked up to him after class and asked him to talk. I explained my situation and he was empathetic. I’ll never forget what he said “I know you are a serious student, and I figured you were having difficulty since you sat in the back and didn’t ask any questions.” Looking back on this class, I am so ashamed of the quality of my work. Thoughts were all over the place, writing was poor and incoherent, handwriting was messy (well, my handwriting was never great, but this was pathetic).

Winter of 2013/end of semester
By this time I could barely fit into 36" pants and weighed in at the low 230’s and began developing stretch marks like crazy. I had been sleeping about 14 hours a day with chronic levels of fatigue due to the medications. I ended up with a B in the class because the professor really liked this final project I wrote on Brownian motion and filtration. But embarrassingly I failed every exam and only came out with B’s on the homework. Once again I consulted the “doctors” about my situation and the answer they provided me was “It may take several years to find the medications that work for you.” At this point I knew I had to get off of everything. I knew they were lying, and I knew they weren’t out to “help” me. In a very sad set of events. I left graduate school and returned home.

Winter 2013 to Spring of 2014
I was home. Miserable and still gaining weight. In a fit of rage I got rid of all my medication at once except for one, which helped me fall asleep at night. At this point I think I posed on T-Nation I was around 235, again with no significant diet changes. I went up to about 260 by the Summer. I was training very aggressively with “German Volume Training” and got my lifting numbers up to where they were in 2012. My waist size was 40". I worked like a starving tiger on steroids to find a job. Despite the fatigue, the depression, the loss of whatever moral and confidence I had. I took my ass to the library and wrote a few hundred resumes and called owners of company’s and managers personally making employment inquiries. I did get a job in March and started in May. Things got really bad between my father and I. My experiences in graduate school had made my patients with any sort of nonsense…nonexistent. I hated everything.

Summer of 2014 - March of 2015
I start my job and begin the long journey of self rediscovery. I went off of everything by August and my weight settled at a cool 260lbs. I found a really great strongman gym and began training there. My upper body strength exploded and I discovered I am really good at carries. My deadlift also shot up to 365lbs after only a 3 months retraining it after 1 year off. My waist size hasn’t changed but my body shape did. I get a lot of complements on my shoulders, traps and upper chest, but my self confidence and hope for my future is nonexistent. A lot of these “accomplishments” feel hollow and I really don’t have a sense of self worth. There were some pretty dark times and serious considerations of “the end”, but they passed. I think the word for this is “jaded”. I’m still full of these disgusting stretch marks and have this gut that hangs over my waist, though my abs are as solid as a rock. It took many months for the side effects of the medications to disappear: forgetfulness, fatigue, tingling in the lips and face, inability to concentrate, difficulty thinking abstractly and creatively, muscle spasms. I was on BP medications for awhile but quickly went off them and incorporated cardio into 5/3/1 and improved significantly in that department.

April 2015 to Now
Now, I’ve been doing some heavy introspection. Looking into ways I can improve myself and figuring out if I can get back on my feet. It feels pretty hopeless, I doubt myself every day and I have a bad habit of changing my plans every week because I just don’t have faith in them (I know it isn’t rational), but I’ve been reading lots on developing organizational skills, self improvement, planning, time management, financial management, etc. I’ve been trying to develop clarity in my goals, one of them being to lose weight and get into the shape I was in 2012. I doubt with my added muscle I can get to 195, but I think 230 is a good first goal. I think the medications screwed my metabolism up and my body might still be recovering. This is one reason why I have been doing a lot of flip flopping on weight loss, and why I am doing everything I can to stick to this plan. Truthfully though, everything feels a little empty. I just don’t enjoy the work like I used to anymore. I doubt if I can go back to school, I doubt if I can lose the weight, and I doubt if I can get strong if I wanted, even though I’ve gotten told I’ve got “genes to squat 500”. I guess I just don’t have the motivation like I used too. I don’t have the enthusiasm and energy like I used too. I don’t want to work hard anymore, but I am not an idiot and know that isn’t an option, so I am forcing myself to move forward and hoping the 2012 engine starts up again. I really just want a vacation from everything.

The last time I lost significant weight I just picked a daily calorie requirement and stuck to it. I don’t think it will be that simple this time around.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Absolutely, but I would also say he’s not employing the method I advocate. I feel that what I have experienced would also work for an overweight person looking to lose weight.

Very often I see it expressed that the methods employed by successful people worked in spite of the person’s effort due to other variables, and it just leaves me confused.[/quote]

I didn’t mean to imply your results were in spite of your efforts. Your efforts were obviously effective – you managed to drop fat while maintaining muscle and significantly increasing strength, which is impressive. So obviously your approach worked (for you).

Could your approach work for the OP? Sure. He’d have to do exactly what you did, though – diet, training, everything. As opposed to adopting certain piecemeal elements, e.g. no conditioning. If he drops conditioning but isn’t putting the same effort into diet that you did, or lifting heavy with the same frequency, his results won’t be the same.

And even if he does get the exact same results, they may not be what he wants (e.g., he may lose 1 lb / week but his goal was to lose 2 lbs / week).

Also, re: conditioning, I’ve found it actually DECREASES my appetite. So I personally find it very valuable, both to help w/ a caloric deficit and to ease compliance with diet.

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Absolutely, but I would also say he’s not employing the method I advocate. I feel that what I have experienced would also work for an overweight person looking to lose weight.

Very often I see it expressed that the methods employed by successful people worked in spite of the person’s effort due to other variables, and it just leaves me confused.[/quote]

I didn’t mean to imply your results were in spite of your efforts. Your efforts were obviously effective – you managed to drop fat while maintaining muscle and significantly increasing strength, which is impressive. So obviously your approach worked (for you).

Could your approach work for the OP? Sure. He’d have to do exactly what you did, though – diet, training, everything. As opposed to adopting certain piecemeal elements, e.g. no conditioning. If he drops conditioning but isn’t putting the same effort into diet that you did, or lifting heavy with the same frequency, his results won’t be the same.

And even if he does get the exact same results, they may not be what he wants (e.g., he may lose 1 lb / week but his goal was to lose 2 lbs / week).

Also, re: conditioning, I’ve found it actually DECREASES my appetite. So I personally find it very valuable, both to help w/ a caloric deficit and to ease compliance with diet.
[/quote]

I feel we will have to agree to disagree.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Absolutely, but I would also say he’s not employing the method I advocate. I feel that what I have experienced would also work for an overweight person looking to lose weight.

Very often I see it expressed that the methods employed by successful people worked in spite of the person’s effort due to other variables, and it just leaves me confused.[/quote]

I didn’t mean to imply your results were in spite of your efforts. Your efforts were obviously effective – you managed to drop fat while maintaining muscle and significantly increasing strength, which is impressive. So obviously your approach worked (for you).

Could your approach work for the OP? Sure. He’d have to do exactly what you did, though – diet, training, everything. As opposed to adopting certain piecemeal elements, e.g. no conditioning. If he drops conditioning but isn’t putting the same effort into diet that you did, or lifting heavy with the same frequency, his results won’t be the same.

And even if he does get the exact same results, they may not be what he wants (e.g., he may lose 1 lb / week but his goal was to lose 2 lbs / week).

Also, re: conditioning, I’ve found it actually DECREASES my appetite. So I personally find it very valuable, both to help w/ a caloric deficit and to ease compliance with diet.
[/quote]

I feel we will have to agree to disagree.[/quote]

About what?

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Absolutely, but I would also say he’s not employing the method I advocate. I feel that what I have experienced would also work for an overweight person looking to lose weight.

Very often I see it expressed that the methods employed by successful people worked in spite of the person’s effort due to other variables, and it just leaves me confused.[/quote]

I didn’t mean to imply your results were in spite of your efforts. Your efforts were obviously effective – you managed to drop fat while maintaining muscle and significantly increasing strength, which is impressive. So obviously your approach worked (for you).

Could your approach work for the OP? Sure. He’d have to do exactly what you did, though – diet, training, everything. As opposed to adopting certain piecemeal elements, e.g. no conditioning. If he drops conditioning but isn’t putting the same effort into diet that you did, or lifting heavy with the same frequency, his results won’t be the same.

And even if he does get the exact same results, they may not be what he wants (e.g., he may lose 1 lb / week but his goal was to lose 2 lbs / week).

Also, re: conditioning, I’ve found it actually DECREASES my appetite. So I personally find it very valuable, both to help w/ a caloric deficit and to ease compliance with diet.
[/quote]

I feel we will have to agree to disagree.[/quote]

About what?
[/quote]

The topics we disagree on. I have presented my viewpoint, you have presented yours, and though I do not agree with your perspective I understand that it is yours, much as you do with mine.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
The topics we disagree on. I have presented my viewpoint, you have presented yours, and though I do not agree with your perspective I understand that it is yours, much as you do with mine.[/quote]

Ok. I’m not 100% clear what we’re disagreeing on, but I guess it doesn’t really matter. I understand you don’t recommend conditioning. I said I like conditioning for myself. But I also don’t think everyone has to do it, or that it’s necessary for fat loss. (Also there’s a difference between HIIT and steady-state cardio).

In any case, to the OP – a lot of the stuff you mention in your post above is beyond the scope of this forum. My advice, such as it is (I don’t claim to be an expert), is to focus on the QUALITY of the foods you eat, rather than focusing on total calories i.e. quantity. If you’re eating a lot of vegetables and lean meats, and carbs are primarily from potatoes, whole grains, rice, etc., and you’re training hard and consistently, you will lose weight over time. I think for you it might be better to focus on enjoying the process and living a healthy, active lifestyle rather than focusing on weekly scale readings.

[quote]craze9 wrote:
. (Also there’s a difference between HIIT and steady-state cardio).
[/quote]

Absolutely true, but I was speaking of conditioning, not cardio. I do not see a way that these would apply.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
. (Also there’s a difference between HIIT and steady-state cardio).
[/quote]

Absolutely true, but I was speaking of conditioning, not cardio. I do not see a way that these would apply.[/quote]

Ok, the confusion may be mine. How do you define conditioning?

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Ok, the confusion may be mine. How do you define conditioning?
[/quote]

I don’t like to self promote, but I’ve written a good deal about this on my blog. If you google “Mythical strength cardio vs conditioning”, you’ll find a post discussing this.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
. (Also there’s a difference between HIIT and steady-state cardio).
[/quote]

Absolutely true, but I was speaking of conditioning, not cardio. I do not see a way that these would apply.[/quote]

I had a misunderstanding as well. I grouped cardio under conditioning. I guess my definition of conditioning is GPP.

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
. (Also there’s a difference between HIIT and steady-state cardio).
[/quote]

Absolutely true, but I was speaking of conditioning, not cardio. I do not see a way that these would apply.[/quote]

I had a misunderstanding as well. I grouped cardio under conditioning. I guess my definition of conditioning is GPP.[/quote]

That’s definitely a part of it, but more specific physical preparedness would also fall under it. Basically, you gotta look at the goals. Are you trying to improve your heart health or your performance.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
That’s definitely a part of it, but more specific physical preparedness would also fall under it. Basically, you gotta look at the goals. Are you trying to improve your heart health or your performance.[/quote]

I only make an effort to do cardio when my blood pressure goes up, lol. High blood pressure runs in the family. Now my form of conditioning is just high volume training and making improvements in rest time, which helps with both heart health and performance. This has allowed me to stay away from cardio for awhile.

I like your blog. It creates an environment for open discussion and understanding.

Weighed myself yesterday, down to 161.25 according to the scale. might be a fluke though

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
Weighed myself yesterday, down to 161.25 according to the scale. might be a fluke though[/quote]

I know a lot of people say to only weigh yourself once a week, but I actually like taking a daily weigh in first thing in the morning. I don’t consider each day’s weight gospel or something to freak out about, but more just to observe a general trend.

Like, 1 week my weight might look like this

Sun: 201.8
Mon: 202.0
Tues: 200
Wed: 198.8
Thurs: 199.4
Fri: 199.0
Sat: 200

And then the next week might be this

Sun: 201.0
Mon: 201.8
Tues: 199.6
Wed: 198.4
Fri: 199.0
Sat: 199.5

And from this I can observe that, even though I have periods where my weight will go up, the general trend is a downward movement. I also get to learn what will/will not make my bodyweight go up, and how to plan for these sorts of factors. Heavy meals, lots of sodium, too much fluids before bed, etc.

Keep trucking along, I think the general trend you are observing is positive.

I met a guy yesterday at the gym. He is in a boxing league (I cant remember which) and I was talking to him about my training progress and weight. He invited me to come to his training gym to learn a few things. I might take him up on it.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]craze9 wrote:
Ok, the confusion may be mine. How do you define conditioning?
[/quote]

I don’t like to self promote, but I’ve written a good deal about this on my blog. If you google “Mythical strength cardio vs conditioning”, you’ll find a post discussing this.[/quote]

I read the article. Your definitions make sense, and are useful. Conditioning is linked to a performance goal, essentially. But if someone’s goal is to “lose fat,” then cardio and conditioning are more or less synonymous, no?

[quote]craze9 wrote:
I read the article. Your definitions make sense, and are useful. Conditioning is linked to a performance goal, essentially. But if someone’s goal is to “lose fat,” then cardio and conditioning are more or less synonymous, no?
[/quote]

If someone’s goal is to lose fat with no performance element, I do not feel that there is anything they could do that would constitute conditioning.

The goal of conditioning is to get better. Getting better is the antithesis of cardio, for the better you get at cardio, the less effective it is.

I do not feel that a state of being is a state of performing, as I see one as passive with the other active. Therefore, I cannot support your conclusion.

Fair enough. I suppose I just do cardio then, myself.

I read your post on the value of competing, also. Liked it. It made me think.