My response to the people that doubt fasted cardio is this:
Get up in the morning, don’t eat anything, and do a very intense cardio workout. How do you feel? Why?
That (and past experience) pretty much solves the question for me.
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
My response to the people that doubt fasted cardio is this:
Get up in the morning, don’t eat anything, and do a very intense cardio workout. How do you feel? Why?
That (and past experience) pretty much solves the question for me.[/quote]
Past experience and the experience of a lot of people ranging from 250-330 lbs solve the equation for me as well.
IMO I just wouldn’t have the energy with fasted cardio. I would rather perform a 100% HIIT session later on in the day, with a few meals under my belt and when I’m fully awake.
Just curious
why is fasted walking recommended over HIIT in several contest prep guides. I’m refering to DC Training and the Scivation guide.
"Christian Thibaudeau had a good post on this…
Well, I’d first like to say that nothing is 100% good or bad. Morning cardio is no exception. When faced with such a subject, I always end up doing a pros and cons list and go from there. This way I can better organize my own opinion and give the readers a chance to make up their own minds.
First, let’s look at the pros of fasted morning cardio:
Pro #1: Morning cardio could potentially increase the amount of free fatty acids (FFA) used up as fuel. This is not due to performing cardio in a glycogen depleted state though, since this isn’t happening here. Unless you go to sleep in an already depleted state, you won’t wake up in such a state.
During sleep almost 100% of the energy expended comes from fatty acids because of the extremely low intensity of the activity and because of the natural hGH burst which occurs 30 minutes or so after you enter the deep sleep phase (hGH increases fatty acid mobilization).
So you really aren’t depleting your intramuscular glycogen stores during the night. You might be tapping your hepatic glycogen stores slightly, but even then that can’t account for much since at best this contains maybe 200-300kcals of stored energy. So it’s a fallacy to believe that when you wake up your muscles are emptied of their glycogen.
However, since fat is the primary energy source during your sleeping period, chances are that upon waking you have a greater amount of free fatty acids available. Since you don’t have to mobilize them (they’re already freed up) they become easier to oxidize for fuel and are thus more readily used up during morning cardio.
Pro #2: Fasted morning cardio could also potentially be glycogen-sparing for the same reason as stated above: the greater availability of FFAs reduces the reliance of glycogen for fuel during low-intensity energy systems work.
Pro #3: Fasted morning cardio could lead to an improved fatty acid mobilization during exercise and increase insulin sensitivity afterwards. This might be true of exercise at a low level of intensity (50-75% of max VO2) since this decreases insulin levels via the stimulation of adrenergic receptors. A lower insulin level can increase fatty acid mobilization.
However, a higher intensity of work (above 75% of max VO2) can actually have the opposite effect. So in that regard a moderate or even low intensity of work would seem to be superior in the morning as far as fat mobilization goes. (Galbo, 1983, Poortmans et Boiseau, 2003)
To counterbalance the reduction in insulin production during exercise at a moderate intensity, insulin sensitivity is increased, especially in the muscle. Since insulin sensitivity is already high in the fasted state, morning cardio could allow you to significantly increase glycogen storage and reduce the storage of carbohydrates as body fat.
So in that regard, morning cardio in a fasted state could increase fat loss during a cutting period and allow a bodybuilder in a bulking phase to significantly increase his carb intake without gaining more fat.
CONS
If fasted state cardio could potentially increase fat mobilization, it’s also potentially more catabolic to muscle tissue. This is due to an increase in cortisol production during fasted exercise. Since cortisol levels are already high in the morning, this could lead to more muscle wasting than during non-fasted cardio.
In fact, cortisol levels could increase muscle breakdown and the use of amino acids as an energy source. This is especially true if high-intensity energy systems work is performed. If an individual uses lower intensity (around 60-65% of maximum heart rate), the need for glucose and cortisol release are both reduced and thus the situation becomes less catabolic.
I personally do believe in the efficacy of morning cardio, but not in a completely fasted state. For optimal results I prefer to ingest a small amount of amino acids approximately 15-30 minutes before the cardio session. A mix of 5g of BCAA, 5g of glutamine (yeah, I know that Dave Barr won’t agree with me on this!), and 5g of essential amino acids would do the trick in preventing any unwanted muscle breakdown.
However, I’ll also play devil’s advocate and say that morning cardio won’t be drastically more effective than post-workout or afternoon cardio work when it comes to fat loss. Personally, I prefer to split up my cardio into two shorter sessions (morning and post-workout)."
Add to CT’s stuff that
a) Low-intensity fasted am cardio allows you to train full-bore on something like DC…
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
c) It goes well together with a carb-cutoff time in the evening. (ingesting only lean protein and trace carbs after a certain hour of the day)
d) It may not work faster than a regular diet, but at least on DC the idea is to keep your bodyfat at a level you’re comfortable with without changing your diet much (the diet that made your muscles big in the first place) and being able to keep gaining very fast at the same time.
and so on…
If you want to diet down from fat into contest shape fast, then obviously this strategy is not all that useful (but then again, you shouldn’t end up in such a situation in the first place.)
There are a number of ways to look at this. The fasted state upon rising will ensure that cortisol and GH are naturally elevated and if exercise intensity is low, as pointed out, a significant proportion of energy can be derived from fat.
The flip side is, just how much actual fat mass does this equate to? Not much!
Other benefits do arise from fasted CV though: 1) some studies suggest an improvement of insulin sensitivity, 2) It gets it done 3) Anecdotally, appetite appears to be greater after (whether increased appetite is good or bad is to be debated).
High Intensity work leads to more favourable adaptations long term, and stimulate metabolism certainly, with overall greater improvements observed in lung fucntion and bodycomposition.
In terms of carbs and fat oxidation during exercise, I recall a few studies demonstrating that if a carb solution was drank during exercise, at a certain concentration, then little / no difference was observed in the rate of fatty acid oxidation during the exercise bout. Basically, as long as carbs are too plentiful, plenty of fat will still be used as an energy substrate.
fasted cardio is big no for me, and unless you are over 20% bf, dont do it.IMO(and experience), it causes too much strength and size losses, and not much fat loss.
[quote]steel_12 wrote:
fasted cardio is big no for me, and unless you are over 20% bf, dont do it.IMO(and experience), it causes too much strength and size losses, and not much fat loss.[/quote]
you must have been doing this in a very stupid manner than.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
[/quote]
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle? Cardio at all is going to make someone that big hungrier. Hell, breathing is going to make someone that size hungrier because you don’t get to be that size unless you are one hungry son of a bitch most of the time.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle? Cardio at all is going to make someone that big hungrier. Hell, breathing is going to make someone that size hungrier because you don’t get to be that size unless you are one hungry son of a bitch most of the time.[/quote]
To control fat gains…but you probably knew the answer anyways while you typed
[quote]zraw wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle? Cardio at all is going to make someone that big hungrier. Hell, breathing is going to make someone that size hungrier because you don’t get to be that size unless you are one hungry son of a bitch most of the time.
To control fat gains…but you probably knew the answer anyways while you typed[/quote]
…gee, that’s what we are arguing here. No one has proven you somehow lose more body fat by doing cardio on an empty stomach. Your overall daily caloric intake must be higher to gain anyway so why would someone think they will somehow only lose body fat by doing cardio first thing in the morning while gaining weight all day long?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
zraw wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle? Cardio at all is going to make someone that big hungrier. Hell, breathing is going to make someone that size hungrier because you don’t get to be that size unless you are one hungry son of a bitch most of the time.
To control fat gains…but you probably knew the answer anyways while you typed
…gee, that’s what we are arguing here. No one has proven you somehow lose more body fat by doing cardio on an empty stomach. Your overall daily caloric intake must be higher to gain anyway so why would someone think they will somehow only lose body fat by doing cardio first thing in the morning while gaining weight all day long?
[/quote]
To be honest, I don’t feel I have enough knowledge to debate this with you, as the only thing I’d have to back up my beliefs are what CT and Dante wrote about the subject, but I do feel like CT and Dante are knowledgeable people so…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
zraw wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle? Cardio at all is going to make someone that big hungrier. Hell, breathing is going to make someone that size hungrier because you don’t get to be that size unless you are one hungry son of a bitch most of the time.
To control fat gains…but you probably knew the answer anyways while you typed
…gee, that’s what we are arguing here. No one has proven you somehow lose more body fat by doing cardio on an empty stomach. Your overall daily caloric intake must be higher to gain anyway so why would someone think they will somehow only lose body fat by doing cardio first thing in the morning while gaining weight all day long?
[/quote]
This sounds like the movie rookie of the year where the pitching coach is talking about how some guys ice their arms after games where others apply heat. Then he says he’s figured out the best of both worlds and proceeds to put ice in the microwave to create “hot ice”.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle? [/quote]
The answer lies in the post you quoted.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle?
The answer lies in the post you quoted.
[/quote]
That is a completely individual thing. Fasted cardio makes me lose my appetite.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
b) It makes most people hungrier during the day which is actually quite useful when trying to become a 300 lbs bodybuilder.
Why would someone be concerned about fasted cardio if the goal was to gain more muscle?
The answer lies in the post you quoted.
That is a completely individual thing. Fasted cardio makes me lose my appetite. [/quote]
Hmm, doing fasted am cardio (brisk walk for 30 mins or so) works well for me as far as enhancing appetite during off-days… And works well for a lot of others it seems. But hey, to each his own.
Cardio for more appetite just sounds funny. I have a hard enough time controlling my appetite while gaining.
My best fat loss weeks are from fasted cardio in the AM and lifting in the PM. But I think the same can be accomplished by doing PM cardio. I just like to relax after work and lifting, not do cardio.
Bottom line, I think if someone did 100 days of cardio fasted, then 100 days of cardio not fasted. There would be very very minuscule differences in the grand scheme. This is assuming low intensity cardio is being performed.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
That is a completely individual thing. [/quote]
I concur, long before I found the weight room, I used to run 8-10 miles 3x a week. I was never hungry afterwards. Is this an individual thing? Was this because it was steady state? Or Was this because the duration of the stress was so prolonged? All I know is that when I do heavy weights, or HIIT cardio, I can’t stuff my face fast enough afterwards.
S
[quote]beaul wrote:
Cardio for more appetite just sounds funny. I have a hard enough time controlling my appetite while gaining.
[/quote]
And others have serious trouble getting enough food in.