Farmers Log

Training Over 35 Lifter
721

[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
01/04/2011

30 minutes Snatch practice - overhead squats, hang snatches, squat snatches + flexibility stuff. Bar only. (I was completely knackered by the end of this)

Back squat @ 402 lbs x 1-1-1

Bench Press @ 264 lbs x 3!! (shoulders felt really weak and strange from all the mobility work I’ve been doing so I thought it wise to quit)

RDLs @ 358 lbs x 1-1-1

Face pulls @ 88 lbs x 10-10

GHR @ bw x 5-5

CG U/H Pulldowns @ 176 lbs x 9-7

Pushdowns @ 115 lbs x 9-8-8

Ab rollouts (off knees) x 8-8

Vid of some stuff from tonight. With some questions which hopefully Carl or DCA will be kind enough to answer for me.

1 I noticed my heels are coming off the ground. Is this something I have to keep working on or would lifting shoes sort this out?

2 Where should I be aiming to hold the bar? directly overhead or as far back (behind the head) as possible?

3 Lastly, from the video, where do you think I need the most work flexibility wise? am I right in thinking shoulders and ankles?

Thanks in advance.[/quote]

I can only tell you what I’ve experienced in trying to do this. I’ve had to open up the front of my shoulders, strengthen the back of them. Lifting shoes help, actually are vital for the transfer of force to the bar - but your heels are coming off the ground either because the bar can’t get far enough back behind your head or you can’t sink the hips deep enough so you end up balanced forward. Ankle and shoulder mobility helps - as does hamstring mobility.

Whether the bar ends up far behind your head or not it will be over the middle of your base of support. What your body does in between the bar and the floor is quite variable and depends greatly on torso and limb lengths and the relative mobility and strength of the parts. That’s why a coach is really helpful - it takes too damn long to figure it out by yourself.

Shoes with hard soles make a big difference. Cross trainers/running shoes are too mushy and make you more unstable in an already highly-unstable body position.

Carl knows better though.

722

Great work Brett. I am seriously jealous of the new set up, and happy for you.

Are you using the how to snatch videos at calstrength?

723

Man you are not normal because you are grinding it out and have the support of great people from here. Life is about the struggle and never giving up. We are not normal and I hope and pray that I am never average.

Keep grinding brother.

724

mobility is a use it or lose it thing. Oly lifting will get and keep you mobile :slight_smile:
you look a hell of a lot more mobile than most people i’ve seen when they start to learn Oly lifting… you look more mobile than me after hammering mobility for a year, actually…

perhaps i shouldn’t say this… but do you have any plates that are about one centimeter thick? try wedging them under your heels. that is about what Oly shoes will feel like (in terms of whether you currently have the ankle mobility to keep your weight on your heels in the squat or whether you need to keep working on that).

i’d been wondering about whether you were meant to aim for an upright torso catching a snatch or whether you were meant to aim to pull your head through and sit your butt back a bit more… what did your coach tell you about that t? we kinda sorta have similar levers…

725

DCA - Thanks for the feedback. I definitely can feel that my weight is too far forward at the bottom. I know the trainers aren’t ideal, but my logic was that seeing as my heels were coming up, that their slight heel was better than my completely flat soled shoes. I know I do need the right shoes (and a rubber mat) but I’ll have to manage for a while until I can afford them.

MJ - Yep, I almost know those videos “off by heart” now!

DJ - Thanks man.

Alexus - I guess this flexibility and mobility stuff is going to be a long term thing, but I don’t enjoy it, I don’t have great patience and I wan’t results NOW!!

I said to my wife that it doesn’t seem to be working yet and she said “you’ve only been doing it four days!!”

726

Listen to the wife.

727

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Listen to the wife.[/quote]

Funny, that’s what she said!

More opinions please Olympic lifters.

I’ve come to the realisation that I won’t be able to do a squat snatch until I can properly perform an overhead squat (which I can’t) and I think this is going to take me a fairly long time. I’m going to carry on with the necessary mobility and flexibility work and will do some overhead squats after each workout. I’m going to do them last because they annihilate my abs, upper back, obliques, everything, so I wouldn’t be able to do anything afterwards if I did them first.

I really want to carry on with my power snatches in the meantime, but I have read that if you want to learn to squat snatch you must stop doing power snatches immediately. However, I’ve also read that the Soviet method of teaching the snatch is to start with the power snatch. (according to author and former World Champion and national team coach A. Medvedyev)
Who’s right?.

I don’t like to think that by continuing with the power version I’m hindering my chances of ever learning the full snatch, but also I don’t feel happy about not snatching for months while I work on this flexibility issue.

P.S I reserve the right to ignore your wisdom if it’s not what I want to hear.

728

Funny, my wife put that same line in the wedding vows…

729

I’m no coach, but snatch grip overhead squats really taught me the position and built stability at the bottom. That and drop snatches. You can make a full snatch happen, but you’ll probably have to take a substantial amount of weight off the bar…

730

[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Listen to the wife.[/quote]

Funny, that’s what she said!

More opinions please Olympic lifters.

I really want to carry on with my power snatches in the meantime, but I have read that if you want to learn to squat snatch you must stop doing power snatches immediately. However, I’ve also read that the Soviet method of teaching the snatch is to start with the power snatch. (according to author and former World Champion and national team coach A. Medvedyev)
Who’s right?.

I don’t like to think that by continuing with the power version I’m hindering my chances of ever learning the full snatch, but also I don’t feel happy about not snatching for months while I work on this flexibility issue.

P.S I reserve the right to ignore your wisdom if it’s not what I want to hear.[/quote]

for what its worth, I saw your 60kg snatch, thought that was the first time you’d ever tried it and though “oh shit this guy has great technique and snatches more than me THE VERY FIRST TIME HE TRIED” so I thought I’d better try to catch the bar deeper as I sure as hell wont be able to progress at your rate doing a power version. (ok, so I now know it wasnt your first attempt, but even so)

so I have been starting from scratch doing split cleans, split jerks and split snatches (so much easier than the squat version)

and for me, I cant learn to split or squat clean whilst still practising power cleans.

for me, the power clean is about having the mindset of pulling the bar as high as I can.

The split/squat clean or snatch is about having the mindset of pulling the bar high enough and then dropping under the bar.

I can only focus on one thing, either pulling as high as I can, or pulling and then dropping under the bar. I cant do both, so I am currently not power cleaning/snatching at all, as I am too simple minded to concentrate on both.

btw This has meant currently snatching 45kg and cleaning 55kg, but the weight isnt important (ok it really, really annoys me), I’m learning a new movement and want to get it engrained in ma heid.

731

I have significant difficulty squatting because of old injuries that limit my ankle dorsiflexion. Maybe partly because of this I was taught to powerclean / powersnatch and I worked on those for a fair few months before moving to the squat versions. Other people told me I should stop doing the power versions because they would hinder me learning the squat versions…

I do think it is possible to do the power versions with an eye to hitting the positions and getting the bar path moving correctly rather than working on pulling as much weight as you are able to rack, however. I have moved to doing the full versions for the most part - but still do power versions sometimes to remind me not to cut the pull short in order to drop under and also to gain confidence that I’m pulling it in the right place for me to be able to catch it if I do drop under. I’m planning on doing more work on the power versions once I have a camera set up to really check my positions and the bar path.

With the overhead squats… How about if you do them with just enough weight so that it helps push your bottom position a little bit lower with a bit of a pause / wiggle at the bottom (keeping your weight on your heels)? I find a 5x5 with the bar helps move my bottom position a bit lower / gets the movement feeling more comfortable in a way that doesn’t leave me too stuffed for doing other things. Dunno.

When I learned the lifts seemed very much comprised of two parts: the pull and the drop under for the catch. There are some transitional exercises to help make the turnaround smoother / more comfortable. I think they might be even more important for people who learn the lifts as a pull with a catch rather than learning by other methods (e.g., starting from the hang then from hang to drop under).

Maybe everything works for a while and nothing works forever…

732

I have no clue about O-lifting. I just think its cool you’re adding it into the mix. Strong work.

733

DUDE!

Here’s my advice based on knowing you just this short time.

  1. Perform less than perfectly your first few times.
  2. Become scorchingly irritated.
  3. Fume, obssess, analyze, and pick-apart.
  4. Beat the shit out of your technique repeatedly.
  5. Try over, and over, and over, and over again.
  6. Become a jedi master

I believe this is you usual routine and it seems to work swimmingly. I can help you with the “getting yourself scorchignly irritated” part, but otherwise I think you’ve pretty much got the rest of it sealed up.

Cheers!

734

DCA & BB - Lowering the weight is definitely a humbling experience, especially when the name of the game is to add more weight to the bar. I had to do my overhead squats tonight with 88lbs!! (hangs head with shame).

Alexus - The more I read about these two lifts the more confused I’m becoming.

Eco - I’m just using them to get a bit of power. My strength isn’t too bad, but my power is non existent.

CK - How are you gonna get me scorchingly irritated? Do I really seem that hard on myself?

735

04/04/2011

Power snatches @ 132 lbs x 8 sets of 2 reps

Back squat @ 363 lbs x 3-3-3 (supersetted with) GHR @ bw x 5-5-5

RDLs @ 330 lbs x 6-5

Push Press @ 198 lbs x 3-3-3

Overhead squats @ 88 lbs x 6-6-6 (no typo that’s really 88 lbs. Oh the shame!)

Was meant to do 5 sets of snatches but got carried away trying out and filming various back angles. After trying to slow down my descent I’m now trying to squat as explosively as possible. Have dropped twenty odd pounds on the push press since I last did them, but it should come back quickly. The overhead squats went quite well. They felt easier done at the end because I was already well warmed up.

Snatch with upright back position, followed by snatch with shoulders further over bar, hips higher and a flatter back. Then some RDLs and overhead squats with tiny, tiny weights.

736

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Listen to the wife.[/quote]

Yes. Seeing as how women are smarter and all.

So I’m not really understanding why you’re having such a struggle with the OH squats. Is it shoulder flexibility? My gosh, I just may be able to outsquat you one day if my shoulder cooperates. Now there’s a motivating goal for me!

737

So I know eff all about Oly lifting but that looked good to me.

738

[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
CK - How are you gonna get me scorchingly irritated? Do I really seem that hard on myself?
[/quote]

I assume this is a rhetorical question? Don’t forget I’ve had to do regular squats with an empty bar and broomstick for some weeks now…

BTW, you’re making Oly lifts look fun.

739

Sorry its taken me so long to respond. Do as Alexus suggested to find out if shoes will fix the heel lifting problem. Its amazing how just a cm under the heels changes the geometry. You should be able to keep your back much closer to vertical with your heels solidly on the ground. Your ankle flexibility looks fine to me. Shoulders might need work, but do the heel thing first. That might fix everything. If it doesn’t, try a wider grip. I can do fine with my normal snatch grip, but I can’t even get to parallel using a clean grip. I used to be able to, but back then my shoulders were much less brittle. If you have to widen your grip so much that it messes up your pulls, then work on shoulder flexibility.

As for where the bar should be, DCAs got it right–over you own cm and over your base of support, but the details depend on how you are built. When you get it right it feels very stable. Not much effort required to keep it there.

740

looking good farmer - nice work

the power snatches had some good speed.

OH squats are one of my all time favorites-
and my number one assessment tool

I try to do them 2x a week on every lower session
to see where I am at-
am I warm?
is anything tweked, etc
they are the best diagnostic tool to see what is what.