I feel like, nutritionally speaking, the immediate post-lifting period is best dedicated to spiking insulin, so I go with simple carbs. (I also take in a reasonable amount of protein in my intra-workout drink, so I do have some in the system already).
My standard out-and-back course should take me an hour. The thing is, it usually takes 61-65 min. (I assume there’s a rip in the space-time continuum somewhere along the route that’s causing this time-dilation effect.)
Yes–not dying. ;^)
I have considered that, but am concerned it’ll tip me over into overtraining (like I did with even modest amounts of stationary-bike HIIT). Also, the faster I run, the harder it is on my old bones, and reconstructed quad tendon.
[quote]roland2000 wrote:
Great information Eyedentist!
I am 48 and started lifting 2 years ago. In that space of time, I probably built 2 or 3 lbs of muscle. At least that’s what I think. However, now that I am cutting down and trying to reveal a sixpack, I’m amazed at how un-massive I actually am.
6ft tall, currently 165lbs, still no six pack. I can bench 180 for reps though. Also, I’m able to manage 12 pullups.
You look great. Please keep the info coming. [/quote]
Thanks much. And I know just what you mean–it is indeed humbling to learn just how unmassive one is during a cut.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Man you’re so detailed in your explanations, this has turned into an AWESOME thread.
Curious, at your ‘strongest’, what were your numbers on some of the big lifts?
[/quote]
I was never very strong for my size. At my biggest (254# or so):
BP: 350x1
Squat: 455x3
DL: I never DL’d on the reg; I remember one day doing 405 for 4 sets of 6. (The reasoning behind such an odd workout has long since slipped my memory.)
I did have fairly strong arms, and could cheat curl (EZ bar) 165x6, and cheat skullcrusher 185x6. (Always loved training arms, and did it to a fault.)
[quote]
And then maybe could you give us some examples of the numbers you use NOW on those lifts, now that you’ve moved on to more joint friendly, pre-exhaust style of lifting?[/quote]
I was afraid someone was going to ask. The numbers are even less impressive than they were back in the day…But I’ll man up and put 'em out there.
I don’t do any free-bar BP, don’t squat, and don’t DL, so I can’t give you any direct comparisons. Some of the heavier things I’ve done of late:
High-incline Smith BP: 165x12
HS declines: 4 PPS x 6, deadstop (ie, setting the weight down for a sec between reps, which def makes it easier)
HS rows: 4 PPS x 6 (ditto)
T-bar rows: 4 plates x 8
Given that most of your thread readers are likely smart enough to comprehend your current style of training (although maybe that’s giving some of us too much credit), we should know enough not to directly compare those to someone else’s fresh-out-of-the-box bench press max.
For a good portion of my serious “lifting” life, I was staunchly in the camp believing that barbells and compound movements were superior to everything else without considering how much context matters. Reading threads such as yours, Stu’s, Punisher’s, and others have helped me better grasp the value of things like pre-exhaust and partial ROM both for aesthetics (you and Stu) and strength (Punisher).
I’ve learned to consider exercises by asking “Will this be most effective in stimulating the target muscles for the desired purpose in this trainee?”
While it may be some time before I train this way, if ever, I still find it fascinating to read about and may draw on these lessons someday. Kudos on a superb thread.
ED: A few personal questions, feel free not to answer.
Do you drink alcohol? If so, how do you account for this in your relatively strict eating regimen? Do you cut down on carbs somewhere else that day, or do you just chalk it up to a “cheat”.
Secondly, do you eat dinner with your wife? I’m like you, I can (and have) eat the same thing day in and day out, but my SO would never go for it. Do you make separate meals?
Thirdly, I’ve got to believe your wife is ecstatic to have a 50 year old husband in great shape. Is she supportive of the time and energy spent on working out and nutrition?
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
ED: A few personal questions, feel free not to answer.
Do you drink alcohol? If so, how do you account for this in your relatively strict eating regimen? Do you cut down on carbs somewhere else that day, or do you just chalk it up to a “cheat”.[/quote]
Very, very rarely–as in once or twice a year. Not a teetotaler, and have no religious/moral objections. Just don’t have much of a taste for it, and if I’m going to consume empty calories, I’d much prefer them in the form of pizza, donuts, etc.
Ah, my poor long-suffering wife. Yes, we make separate meals, and eat at different times. No, she is not thrilled with this. (In order to form a more perfect union, I make it a point to sit with her and my daughter while they eat.)
[quote]
Thirdly, I’ve got to believe your wife is ecstatic to have a 50 year old husband in great shape. Is she supportive of the time and energy spent on working out and nutrition?[/quote]
I asked her this question directly. Her response was “The fact that I tolerate your insanity is proof of my supportiveness.”
I asked her this question directly. Her response was “The fact that I tolerate your insanity is proof of my supportiveness.”
That about sums it up, I think. [/quote]
Doc, that is so awesome.
…what is the definition of supportiveness? -answer, the toleration of insanity
I actually have a question: I notice you cut your protein intake in half on your no-carb/conditioning day. Is this one of your personal tweaks (if so, why)? I’ve always assumed people who do what you do (so to speak) maintained a relatively constant protein intake from day to day.
I asked her this question directly. Her response was “The fact that I tolerate your insanity is proof of my supportiveness.”
That about sums it up, I think. [/quote]
Doc, that is so awesome.
…what is the definition of supportiveness? -answer, the toleration of insanity
I actually have a question: I notice you cut your protein intake in half on your no-carb/conditioning day. Is this one of your personal tweaks (if so, why)? I’ve always assumed people who do what you do (so to speak) maintained a relatively constant protein intake from day to day.[/quote]
Yeah, on low-carb days I do let protein drop substantially below what’s widely considered optimal. I do it because 1) I’m trying to keep calories down, and I find fat more satiating than protein (ie, 300 cals of PB keeps me feeling fat and happy longer than does 300 cals of chicken breast), and 2) it’s part-and-parcel of my attempt to keep insulin levels low on those days.
But as with cals, I think of protein intake in terms of averages across days. So while my protein intake might fall to 130 or so on a no-carb day, I’ll get it up to 240-260 on a higher-intake day. Thus, the average will be somewhere around .9-1 g/lb/d. In this way, my average daily protein intake is not exceptionally low (although I recognize that many knowledgeable trainers/lifters would consider .9-1 g/lb/d too low).
I asked her this question directly. Her response was “The fact that I tolerate your insanity is proof of my supportiveness.”
That about sums it up, I think. [/quote]
Doc, that is so awesome.
…what is the definition of supportiveness? -answer, the toleration of insanity
I actually have a question: I notice you cut your protein intake in half on your no-carb/conditioning day. Is this one of your personal tweaks (if so, why)? I’ve always assumed people who do what you do (so to speak) maintained a relatively constant protein intake from day to day.[/quote]
Yeah, on low-carb days I do let protein drop substantially below what’s widely considered optimal. I do it because 1) I’m trying to keep calories down, and I find fat more satiating than protein (ie, 300 cals of PB keeps me feeling fat and happy longer than does 300 cals of chicken breast), and 2) it’s part-and-parcel of my attempt to keep insulin levels low on those days.
But as with cals, I think of protein intake in terms of averages across days. So while my protein intake might fall to 130 or so on a no-carb day, I’ll get it up to 240-260 on a higher-intake day. Thus, the average will be somewhere around .9-1 g/lb/d. In this way, my average daily protein intake is not exceptionally low (although I recognize that many knowledgeable trainers/lifters would consider .9-1 g/lb/d too low).
[/quote]
FWIW, Paul Carter wrote a long discourse on his blog dated July 10 about protein intake and he totally backs your perspective. It does state that when dieting it might be advantageous to go up to 1.5 gram/lb bodyweight (but w/o the solid science to back that up yet).
I asked her this question directly. Her response was “The fact that I tolerate your insanity is proof of my supportiveness.”
That about sums it up, I think. [/quote]
Haha. My wife would probably say the exact same thing (or “Oh STFU”).
Your views and tactics regarding insulin are interesting and has me rethinking a few things. I’m cutting right now and doing IF (16/8) and low carb with refeeds. I use a BCAA product (humapro) before lifting and HIIT; while it’s largely used so I hit my protein numbers for the day, I also use it to stave off the dreaded “catabolism!”. I am doing fine with this currently (and have in the past), but now I’m wondering if next time I should take a different tack. Hmmm…
Peanut & almond butter are a HUGE weakness for me. I use it as my late night snack (I put down 3/4 cup of the latter last night). I like your ideas about snacking on it early in the day, but I am not sure I could control myself (I have a hard time closing that door once it’s been opened).
[quote]punnyguy wrote:
FWIW, Paul Carter wrote a long discourse on his blog dated July 10 about protein intake and he totally backs your perspective. It does state that when dieting it might be advantageous to go up to 1.5 gram/lb bodyweight (but w/o the solid science to back that up yet).
[/quote]
That was a very interesting read; thanks for sharing it. Now I’ve got some more things to consider.
[quote]Tyler23 wrote:
Your views and tactics regarding insulin are interesting and has me rethinking a few things. I’m cutting right now and doing IF (16/8) and low carb with refeeds. I use a BCAA product (humapro) before lifting and HIIT; while it’s largely used so I hit my protein numbers for the day, I also use it to stave off the dreaded “catabolism!”. I am doing fine with this currently (and have in the past), but now I’m wondering if next time I should take a different tack. Hmmm…
[/quote]
If you decide to make a change at some point, let us know if it seems to make a difference in terms of the ease of your weight loss.
Yeah, I love the stuff (almond butter too; I loved the Target house brand, but they stopped carrying it a few years ago). TBH, the fact that I get to eat 10-13 (my personal record) tablespoons of PB kind of makes me look forward to my low-carb days.
Thanks for the insight into you’re family life. I like your wife’s sense of humor.
Back on page 2 when you outlined your diet, you mentioned it was for a cut although it sounds like you’re eating this way currently. Are you still cutting, or is this your “new normal”?
Two comments: you mentioned sitting in the HS incline press a bit sideways and doing one-arm presses across your body. I love these, a certain frequent poster on this site (we’ll call him Prof. Tooth Optometrist) did them the same way. Next, I completely agree with your ideas about shoulder width being aesthetic goal. I’m a bit of a numbers junkie, and my favorite metric is what I call the “drop”. It consists of the circumference of my upper body with my arms at my side taken at the widest part of my shoulders, minus my waist. If the first measurement is 53" and my waist is 33" then the drop is 20". As long as this number is increasing, I’m on the right track.
I’ve already incorporated some of your ideas into my training, it’s good to get some confirmation on other things that I’ve been doing.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Thanks for the insight into you’re family life. I like your wife’s sense of humor.
[/quote]
The thing is, she wasn’t smiling when she said it. ;^)
Yeah, that’s a good way to describe it. I’m in a holding pattern right now, with my AM weight fluctuating between 185-189 (depending on the carb status of the previous day). Not sure where to go from here…As mentioned previously, I’m pretty fat-phobic, so definitely am unwilling to ‘bulk.’ I’ve considered taking a run at a Physique comp, but it seems none of the natty shows have senior-citizen divisions. So my choices would be 1) compete in a natty show against 25 yo’s who have natural test levels twice mine, or 2) compete in an open show against 50 yo’s who have exogenous test levels twice mine. (Sorry, I know I’m whining.)
I think I may have seen a TN vid of him doing them. (Hell, for all I know that’s where I got the idea.) It is a fantastic upper-chest exercise, no doubt.
That sounds like a great metric to keep one honest during a gain-phase, because it will only go up if the rate of shoulder-girdle muscle gain is higher than the rate of abdominal fat gain.
EyeDentist - thank you very much for this detailed thread, it’s very interesting.
I was just wondering if you’d considered goblet squats with a kettlebell as your quad movement? I just thought they might work well in your situation, as they aren’t too taxing on recovery and also they are very injury-friendly as they encourage good form. I’m no expert by any means at all, I just thought I’d suggest it.
[quote]furo wrote:
EyeDentist - thank you very much for this detailed thread, it’s very interesting.
I was just wondering if you’d considered goblet squats with a kettlebell as your quad movement? I just thought they might work well in your situation, as they aren’t too taxing on recovery and also they are very injury-friendly as they encourage good form. I’m no expert by any means at all, I just thought I’d suggest it.
Thanks again for all of the information!
[/quote]
You’re welcome. As for goblet squats, I hadn’t considered them–will definitely give it some thought. Thanks.
It looks like you are peaked and optimized. Your strategy seems to be to maintain muscle mass and keep body fat percentage at a minimum.
How would you adjust if you wanted to build more muscle? Let’s just say that you were 10lbs lighter and knew there was room to build. What would you do? How would your diet and meal timing look like? How would your lifting scheme change?
[quote]roland2000 wrote:
It looks like you are peaked and optimized. Your strategy seems to be to maintain muscle mass and keep body fat percentage at a minimum.
[/quote]
Yes, that is precisely my current strategy/goal.
[quote]
How would you adjust if you wanted to build more muscle? Let’s just say that you were 10lbs lighter and knew there was room to build. What would you do? How would your diet and meal timing look like? How would your lifting scheme change?[/quote]
Bearing in mind that it would probably take >2 years for a 50+ y.o. natty to gain 10# of muscle, even under the best of circumstances…
The biggest programmatic change would be caloric–I would have to start running a surplus, as opposed to my current maintenance intake. For fairly lean nattys past the noob stage, I just don’t think it’s possible to put on appreciable muscle mass without eating at surplus levels. Put another way, I don’t think lean nattys can effectively ‘re-comp’; ie, lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously.
To get into a surplus, my first adjustment would be to slowly dial back on both cardio and conditioning work. I would cut 5 min/run of my runs until I was down to 20 min/run, and hold at that level. Likewise, I would gradually back down the length of my conditioning sessions from 30 to 15 minutes. I would do these things before making any changes to my diet, and assess how my bodyweight responded. I would aim for a BW trend of 1-2# gain/month, and adjust my caloric intake accordingly.
All that said, the biggest challenge for me would be to overcome my adipophobia and embrace the 10 (minimum) to 20 (more realistic) pound fat gain that would inevitably accompany a 10# increase in LBM.
Personally id go against subtracting work and add food. Ive alwasy found anecdotally that the body does much better when a high work load and high food load is there. Rather than reducing exercise and trying to eat a surplus.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Personally id go against subtracting work and add food. Ive alwasy found anecdotally that the body does much better when a high work load and high food load is there. Rather than reducing exercise and trying to eat a surplus.[/quote]
You’re also, what, 30 years younger than EyeDentist?
(I am, too, just making a point that age may affect this)
He’s talking about dropping some conditioning from a program that’s much heavier on conditioning than most people on this website are used to. It’d be different if he was cutting his lifting sessions substantially, but for a guy that runs 6 miles a couple times a week, I think it’s quite reasonable to start by scaling back the conditioning to a more modest level rather than trying to gain muscle while running that much (again, talking about a 50-something-year-old body here, not a 27-year-old).
