EyeDentist, How Do You Train?

Training
301

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Any opinions on the artificial sweetener content I posted? I know you’re busy, just curious as to your thoughts on the matter, because you have the ability to go much more in depth than I while still being articulate enough for me to understand lol[/quote]

I checked it out–very interesting, and a reminder of how important it is to be critical/skeptical when extrapolating from rat studies to humans. I wonder whether the same holds true for other sweeteners. Still, CPIR seems to be a reality in humans:

Thanks for looking into it man, I value your opinion a ton on here. I also hope you don’t think I was trying to ‘undermine’ the advice and strategies you use by bringing this stuff up. Like I said, I eat extremely similar to you, though I spread my protein out a bit more through out the day just because of some research that it could potentially be better for muscle gain (believe it’s by Layne Norton), and I take in a bit more than you do.

As for another question, what is your ‘goal’ physique if you had to choose one?

302

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Any opinions on the artificial sweetener content I posted? I know you’re busy, just curious as to your thoughts on the matter, because you have the ability to go much more in depth than I while still being articulate enough for me to understand lol[/quote]

I checked it out–very interesting, and a reminder of how important it is to be critical/skeptical when extrapolating from rat studies to humans. I wonder whether the same holds true for other sweeteners. Still, CPIR seems to be a reality in humans:

Thanks for looking into it man, I value your opinion a ton on here. I also hope you don’t think I was trying to ‘undermine’ the advice and strategies you use by bringing this stuff up. Like I said, I eat extremely similar to you, though I spread my protein out a bit more through out the day just because of some research that it could potentially be better for muscle gain (believe it’s by Layne Norton), and I take in a bit more than you do.

As for another question, what is your ‘goal’ physique if you had to choose one?
[/quote]

It’s all good, spidey. I’m here to learn like everyone else, and very much appreciate/value your contributions.

Goal physique–good question. My all-time favorite BBer physique is Bob Paris, and I def wouldn’t have minded looking like him back in the day. (Any of you young whippersnappers who aren’t familiar with Paris’s physique, do yourself a favor and Google pics of him from the 80s.) And but for my narrow clavicles, gangly limbs, short waist, average muscle bellies, and lack of diet discipline, I probably could have come pretty close. ;^)

My current goals are decidedly more modest. Once the weather turns shirtless, I hope to be tighter in the waist (I’m currently carrying ~6 extra pounds–Season’s Greetings!). I also aspire to have my delts be fuller/rounder; ie, more ‘3D’. I want 'em to look like zraw’s, although I realize this is not a realistic aspiration (for multiple reasons).

Essentially, my goal is to be a better version of the me I am now.

303

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
I’m trying a low intensity core workout, fasted, in the AM (don’t have much time in the morning to do a brisk walk for a significant amount of time), then the HIIT/Weight training in the evening. [/quote]

Gotcha. What specifically have you been doing as of late? (Lay it out day-by-day.)[/quote]

Let’s kick this pig!

*I hurt my back a few months ago (stabilizing muscles around my spine on the left side had tightened, clinging to my spine and shoulder blade, to the point that it hurt to pick up my 1yo son…) so I haven’t been able to do much other then conditioning/run-specific HIIT. Ready to go now though. Before that, a typical workout would look something like this…

Day 1
-DB squat (heels on a 1" board to drive focus to the quads)
-DB Press (alt between standard and neutral grip)
-Farmers walk

Day 2
-Pullups (max reps)
-SLDL
-Shrugs (alternating between standard and one-arm seated, 15 slow-10 fast)

*Both Day 1 and 2 would be 6 sets, 12-15 reps, moving from one exercise to the next before starting the next set. Last set was generally a burn out.
*Farmers walk was 1-1.5 min, with the last set being as long as I could hold the DB.

Day 3 (‘Pretty’ muscles- I would pick a different exercise for each set, trying to hit all aspects of the muscle.)
-Delts- Front/Lateral raise combo, neutral/standard grip press, bent over reverse raise, front raise (heavier), standard DB press (burnout)
-Biceps- Supp curls, bent-over DB preacher curls (hope that makes sense), cross-body curls, flaring (inner bicep) curls, seated concentration curls, 21s (7 top-half-ROM, 7 bottom-half-ROM, 7 FROM)
-Triceps- Over head extensions, lying ext (heavy), BO ext, lying ext (light), single-arm over head ext, dips (to failure)
-Forearms- seated curls, seated reverse curls, hammer curl… each would be done 2x
*8-15 reps, again super-setting.

Days 4 and 5 would be a derivative of 1 and 2, depending on what was still sore by then and how sore it was.

Day 6 would be day 3 all over again. Might also throw in sets of calf raises (15slow, 10fast, alt between inside, outside, and neutral foot placement) if I’m feelin froggy, though one of very few muscle related ‘gifts’ I was given was nice calves, so I don’t always include them… though I should because they can always get better.

Day 7- Rest

I would also alternate between HIIT(30/60s sprints) and situps/pushups (2 min of each because that’s what the Army tests us on) in the mornings.

The overall schedule also varies once a month due to drill weekends.

Now, before I get ripped to shreds on the workout (though I need/want it so I can benefit in the long run), please realize that I have some limitations given that this is all being done at home, with limited resources and weights. Was also trying to employ a ‘burn fat and gain muscle’strategy… My theory being, because I can’t load up on weight, I will hit every body part 2x a week and try for higher reps, keeping up the pace throughout. I would also try including more compound lift, esp in the back and legs, to recruit more muscle involvement. I’ve since learned the error of some of my ways (not doing’heavy’ compounds first for example) from this forum, along with a lot of tips from this sight in general.

Be gentle… ;-)[/quote]

Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.

304

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

It’s all good, spidey. I’m here to learn like everyone else, and very much appreciate/value your contributions.

Goal physique–good question. My all-time favorite BBer physique is Bob Paris, and I def wouldn’t have minded looking like him back in the day. (Any of you young whippersnappers who aren’t familiar with Paris’s physique, do yourself a favor and Google pics of him from the 80s.) And but for my narrow clavicles, gangly limbs, short waist, average muscle bellies, and lack of diet discipline, I probably could have come pretty close. ;^)

My current goals are decidedly more modest. Once the weather turns shirtless, I hope to be tighter in the waist (I’m currently carrying ~6 extra pounds–Season’s Greetings!). I also aspire to have my delts be fuller/rounder; ie, more ‘3D’. I want 'em to look like zraw’s, although I realize this is not a realistic aspiration (for multiple reasons).

Essentially, my goal is to be a better version of the me I am now.[/quote]

Ohh wow, yet another similarity between us brother haha. I’ve posted this pic whenever there’s a ‘ideal physique’ thread on here. I just don’t think anyone can match Paris in both size and shape. Hell even his posing was graceful as hell.

What are you doing specifically for bringing up said delts? I’ve been trying to figure out how to bring up the stubborn middle head, but there’s only so many laterals one can do lol. I’ve incorporated Charles Glass style upright rows recently as well, but too soon to say how much of an impact they will have.

305

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.[/quote]

Correct. I will turn my focus to strength and/or performance after I get the physique I want.

306

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Any opinions on the artificial sweetener content I posted? I know you’re busy, just curious as to your thoughts on the matter, because you have the ability to go much more in depth than I while still being articulate enough for me to understand lol[/quote]

I checked it out–very interesting, and a reminder of how important it is to be critical/skeptical when extrapolating from rat studies to humans. I wonder whether the same holds true for other sweeteners. Still, CPIR seems to be a reality in humans:

I can’t link sup versity on here but I reccomend reading there on this debate. Studies have show to even lose more weight with diet pops and artificial sweeteners. Stu on here uses them and gets into contest conditon. Anecdotal and research points to no hinderance on fat loss

307

Hey ED,

Loving this thread. Just a quick question if I may.

I have adopted a similar approach to nutrition as to yourself. Although I like to have my peanut butter with celery. Do you see any issue with celery and its effect on insulin? I believe celery does have some carbs to it, although high in fiber.

I know this is another example of “majoring in the minors”, but thats what the ED diet is all about!!

Keep an eye on that fundi!

tweet

308

[quote]theBird wrote:
Hey ED,

Loving this thread. Just a quick question if I may.

I have adopted a similar approach to nutrition as to yourself. Although I like to have my peanut butter with celery. Do you see any issue with celery and its effect on insulin? I believe celery does have some carbs to it, although high in fiber.

I know this is another example of “majoring in the minors”, but thats what the ED diet is all about!!

Keep an eye on that fundi!

tweet

[/quote]

I can’t imagine celery would be a problem–it’s basically cellulose-on-a-stick. If I could stand the stuff, I’d eat it too.

309

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.[/quote]

Correct. I will turn my focus to strength and/or performance after I get the physique I want.[/quote]

OK. Are you willing to post pics showing your current condition?

310

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.[/quote]

Correct. I will turn my focus to strength and/or performance after I get the physique I want.[/quote]

OK. Are you willing to post pics showing your current condition?
[/quote]

I would be willing, yes. I’m extremely serious about making the necessary changes, and though I’m extremely embarrassed by what my physique has become (had a baby, sedentary job, school, hurt my back, excuse, excuse, excuse), if it’ll help me get to where I want to be, I’m willing to do it. I will try and post it ASAP (at work right now and have drill starting directly after). Are there any specific shots you need or just the standard front view, shirtless selfie? I’m 5’6", 175lbs, 20-25% BF if that helps at all in the mean time.

311

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
What are you doing specifically for bringing up said delts? I’ve been trying to figure out how to bring up the stubborn middle head, but there’s only so many laterals one can do lol. I’ve incorporated Charles Glass style upright rows recently as well, but too soon to say how much of an impact they will have. [/quote]

Good question. First of all is the issue of mindset. Many (?most?) of us are susceptible to the bro-tendency to prioritize certain bodyparts/movements at the expense of others–Chest, esp bench, comes to mind. (How Chest/Bench managed to become King of Bodyparts/Exercises, and whether this status is in fact deserved, would be an interesting topic for a thread.) This prioritization can be obvious–eg, we all know bros who do 15 sets of bench, followed by 3 perfunctory sets of laterals supersetted with sexting their GF. But mal-prioritization can occur in more subtle ways as well. For example, our bro may perform a reasonably balanced number of sets across bodyparts, but he always works Chest first–Delts are relegated to the end of the workout, when energy and motivation flag, and MMC transforms into Mind-Meal Connection; ie, he’s thinking more about what he’s going to eat than he is about his Delts. Then there’s the problem of poor prioritization owing to an enthusiasm gap. This bro works his lagging Delts first, but because he doesn’t enjoy doing so–and let’s be honest, we all have a ‘least favorite’ bodypart/workout–his effort is perfunctory at best.

When discussing this issue with the bros, I first have them get in touch with that ‘champing at the bit’ feeling they get when it’s time to work Chest. They can usually do this without difficulty. I then emphasize that they have to find a way to gin up this same feeling regarding delt work–eg, that they have to approach lateral raises with the same enthusiasm, energy and joy with which they do bench. IMO, this ‘attitude adjustment’ is the first and most important step to improving Delts.

(Needless to say, Spidey, I’m not suggesting that you are one of the bros I discussed above–I’m just making general points. If you want, we can talk about specific approaches to Delt work–just say the word.)

FWIW, I’m a big fan of Glass-style laterals, and would encourage you to give them a good long trial.

312

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.[/quote]

Correct. I will turn my focus to strength and/or performance after I get the physique I want.[/quote]

OK. Are you willing to post pics showing your current condition?
[/quote]

I would be willing, yes. I’m extremely serious about making the necessary changes, and though I’m extremely embarrassed by what my physique has become (had a baby, sedentary job, school, hurt my back, excuse, excuse, excuse), if it’ll help me get to where I want to be, I’m willing to do it. I will try and post it ASAP (at work right now and have drill starting directly after). Are there any specific shots you need or just the standard front view, shirtless selfie? I’m 5’6", 175lbs, 20-25% BF if that helps at all in the mean time. [/quote]

Shirtless, relaxed, front and back. Shot of the wheels wouldn’t hurt as well.

313

EyeDentist,

I’m just curious, have you tried other approaches to carb consumption and found them to be inferior to your CBL/timed CHO consumption protocol?

I ask only because there is so much conflicting information, and individual results do vary, so I’m usually interested in controlled, anecdotal results that individuals have actually seen happen firsthand, since I think those are oftentimes valid observations despite a potential lack of scientific, peer-reviewed studies affirming such results.

At the end of the day, the general mantra here on T-Nation seems to be that ultimately total calorie intake is what matters, and not so much the timing of macronutrient consumption of a certain caliber, or perhaps even what ratio of carbs to fats comprise those calories, as long as a certain ‘energy in vs energy out’ balance is adhered to (note: I know that the CBL approach has its fans). This seems to suggest to me that most argue the role of insulin is overstated in light of what ultimately boils down to total caloric intake; whether that be true or not is another topic for debate.

Has your observation with your own physique suggested otherwise to you?

314

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

When discussing this issue with the bros, I first have them get in touch with that ‘champing at the bit’ feeling they get when it’s time to work Chest. They can usually do this without difficulty. I then emphasize that they have to find a way to gin up this same feeling regarding delt work–eg, that they have to approach lateral raises with the same enthusiasm, energy and joy with which they do bench. IMO, this ‘attitude adjustment’ is the first and most important step to improving Delts.

(Needless to say, Spidey, I’m not suggesting that you are one of the bros I discussed above–I’m just making general points. If you want, we can talk about specific approaches to Delt work–just say the word.)

FWIW, I’m a big fan of Glass-style laterals, and would encourage you to give them a good long trial.
[/quote]

This is interesting. I actually have this issue to a degree. I mean, I’m probably more into the ‘power-building’ style of lifting rather than strictly bodybuilding (I actually very much like the reverse pyramid style of lifting you used to use), so it’s easy for me to kind of give 100% all out effort for body parts like Legs because of Squats and DL’s. My chest and Bench Press actually suck, so I’m working on that with a lot of chest isolation volume, which I think will pay off here down the road. However, delts I an’t get the same, ‘intensity’ I guess is the word, simply because honestly I don’t like OHP’ing much, not only does it end up giving me shoulder issues, but it also just doesn’t seem to hit much more than the front delts, which get enough stimulation as is.

At least with legs and chest, even back, I know at the very least, if overtime I add some weight to the ‘big lifts’ over time, it’ll probably pay off in some kind of growth, but I don’t really have that with something like lateral delts, because honestly if I add 40lbs to lateral raises it’s probably just a result of crappy form. lol. I do now have a delts/arms day, that I do delts first and really try to kill with lots of raises and flies.

I would LOVE to hear your opinions on exercise selection and techniques for lagging delts, I’m always eager to hear your suggestions.

315

[quote]JR249 wrote:
EyeDentist,

I’m just curious, have you tried other approaches to carb consumption and found them to be inferior to your CBL/timed CHO consumption protocol?

I ask only because there is so much conflicting information, and individual results do vary, so I’m usually interested in controlled, anecdotal results that individuals have actually seen happen firsthand, since I think those are oftentimes valid observations despite a potential lack of scientific, peer-reviewed studies affirming such results.

At the end of the day, the general mantra here on T-Nation seems to be that ultimately total calorie intake is what matters, and not so much the timing of macronutrient consumption of a certain caliber, or perhaps even what ratio of carbs to fats comprise those calories, as long as a certain ‘energy in vs energy out’ balance is adhered to (note: I know that the CBL approach has its fans). This seems to suggest to me that most argue the role of insulin is overstated in light of what ultimately boils down to total caloric intake; whether that be true or not is another topic for debate.

Has your observation with your own physique suggested otherwise to you?[/quote]

I’m so glad you asked this, because it provides me an opportunity to clear up a potential misunderstanding concerning the approach I’ve been following these past few years.

First let me say that you can count me among those who believe that total caloric intake is far-and-away the most important factor in determining body composition. (To paraphrase Lyle McDonald, any nonidiotic diet will result in fat loss.) And as we all know, virtually every dietary approach you can think of has been used successfully to get shredded, the common denominator among them being they all produced an appreciable caloric deficit for an appreciable period of time.

Given this, what benefits, if any, accrue to my approach? There are two, one of which is theoretical, while the other is real (albeit anecdotal).

First the theoretical. From what we understand about insulin and its effects, there is a theoretical benefit to manipulating it in the manner I attempt. That is, there are theoretical reasons to believe my approach MIGHT result in better/faster body recomposition. How much better, how much faster? No one can say. If you forced me to guess (and that’s all it would be–a guess) I would venture the benefits are single-digit percentages: Maybe fat loss is 5% greater than it would be otherwise? Maybe 5% more LBM is preserved? And I freely admit, even these modest numbers might be an exaggeration. So for theoretical reasons related to insulin metabolism, I would cautiously suggest that my approach might provide for modestly better body-recomp results over-and-above those stemming from the hypocaloric state it engenders.

Now the practical: Even if my approach yields NO metabolic benefits above-and-beyond the caloric deficit it produces, I would still maintain there are benefits accruing to it. In my experience, the chief such benefit is the structure and constraints the diet provides regarding what to eat and when to eat it. As we all know, dieting is hard–and the leaner you become, the harder it gets. By, in a sense, making many of my food decisions for me, this diet does away with a potential pitfall into which many a diet has stumbled. I find it HUGELY helpful that I don’t have to decide what I’m going to have for breakfast. I find it HUGELY helpful that I don’t have to decide when I’m going to have carbs. By taking such decisions out of my hands, my diet obviates the potentially diet-busting stress such decisions can produce.

316

^^Excellent response - thanks for taking a thorough time to address that.

I train in the afternoon, in the school fitness center after I am done teaching (usually 3:30 - 5:00 p.m.), so I am experimenting with some carbs in the AM (app. 30-40% of daily intake), and then the rest of my carbs with an evening meal after training (60%-70%), with protein, fat and veggies at lunchtime and any small snacks in between consisting of the same. We’ll see how it goes, but obviously I, too, have found that overall caloric intake is the biggest variable here, at least so far.

317

Excellent question JR249, and as usual, great response from ED.

I would imagine that those of us on here know that body re-composition is a slow process, and having that mindset is half the battle. Hearing different strategies provides different options for us all to consider (hell, you can find that in the different articles on this site alone), and tips to aid the process further, even minutely (and especially minutely for those in great shape already, as ED stated). For myself and my ‘majoring in the minors’ questions, it is simply to try different tweaks to the diet (timing, how much of what to consume, specific supplements, etc) and workout routine (timing, reps, sets, lifts, etc) that I may enjoy, may work better for me, or are simply more convenient given my schedule, all of which effect long term sustainability of the ‘life-style change’, as ED suggests. I specifically appreciate ED and others going into the ‘why’s’ associated with their respective strategies, as this provides a solid base for viability (or not).

318

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Now the practical: Even if my approach yields NO metabolic benefits above-and-beyond the caloric deficit it produces, I would still maintain there are benefits accruing to it. In my experience, the chief such benefit is the structure and constraints the diet provides regarding what to eat and when to eat it. As we all know, dieting is hard–and the leaner you become, the harder it gets. By, in a sense, making many of my food decisions for me, this diet does away with a potential pitfall into which many a diet has stumbled. I find it HUGELY helpful that I don’t have to decide what I’m going to have for breakfast. I find it HUGELY helpful that I don’t have to decide when I’m going to have carbs. By taking such decisions out of my hands, my diet obviates the potentially diet-busting stress such decisions can produce.[/quote]

Excellent point ED! Making the process even slightly less daunting can only aid in it’s success.

I’ve tried an IF diet before, with good results, and found the same stress relief from it, which allowed me to be more comfortable giving a similar diet another chance. I am feeling it again, giving your diet suggestions a try. I do still feel myself stressing to hit my macros at the end of the day at times, as I am trying to do so in a 3-4 hour window towards the end of my day. This is something I may have to tweak down the road.

319

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

This is interesting. I actually have this issue to a degree. I mean, I’m probably more into the ‘power-building’ style of lifting rather than strictly bodybuilding (I actually very much like the reverse pyramid style of lifting you used to use), so it’s easy for me to kind of give 100% all out effort for body parts like Legs because of Squats and DL’s. My chest and Bench Press actually suck, so I’m working on that with a lot of chest isolation volume, which I think will pay off here down the road. However, delts I an’t get the same, ‘intensity’ I guess is the word, simply because honestly I don’t like OHP’ing much, not only does it end up giving me shoulder issues, but it also just doesn’t seem to hit much more than the front delts, which get enough stimulation as is.

At least with legs and chest, even back, I know at the very least, if overtime I add some weight to the ‘big lifts’ over time, it’ll probably pay off in some kind of growth, but I don’t really have that with something like lateral delts, because honestly if I add 40lbs to lateral raises it’s probably just a result of crappy form. lol. I do now have a delts/arms day, that I do delts first and really try to kill with lots of raises and flies.

I would LOVE to hear your opinions on exercise selection and techniques for lagging delts, I’m always eager to hear your suggestions. [/quote]

I agree: Other than heavy OHP (of which I am not a fan either), shoulder exercises by and large are not amenable to the overload approach to progression. Instead, the key I think is the thoughtful application of volume/pump training, along with the judicious use of intensification techniques (dropsets, forced reps, etc).

One of the intriguing traits of the delts is that all three heads are amenable to being worked with either ‘push’ movements or ‘pull’ movements. This trait facilitates flexibility and creativity regarding how, and how frequently, delts can be trained. (I wrote about this previously, so please forgive if this is old news.)

For example, one way to emphasize lagging delts would be via increasing the frequency with which they are trained. This could be accomplished by exploiting their push/pull characteristics in the context of a Push/Legs/Pull split; specifically:

Day 1: Push day: Chest, Push Delts, Tris
Day 2: Legs
Day 3: Pull day: Lats, Pull Delts, Bis
Day 4: Off

Note this split results in Delts being worked every other day.

‘Push’ delt exercises:
Anterior head: Press (I prefer seated DBs, nonlock style. Note that the pressing movement can be done last, to minimize the amount of weight needed for effective stimulation)
Medial head: Glass-style laterals (with DBs, bands, etc)
Posterior head: Rear-delt laterals with thumbs pointed downward; band pullbacks (band is fixed belt-high; stand facing the fixation point; arms are kept nearly straight, and the handles are pulled back and slightly away from the midline)

‘Pull’ delt exercises:
Anterior head: Front raises (with DBs, bands, etc)
Medial head: SGHP; wide-grip upright rows (bar, DB, bands); regular-style lateral raises
Posterior head: Haney rows; face pulls

(BTW, I’m not suggesting that every exercise be performed at every workout–just providing multiple exercise options.)

While some of these exercises can be done in an overload fashion (SGHPs come to mind in this regard), most should be trained in a high-rep ‘pump’ fashion. (In his workout plan for me, I recall JM urging me to “burn the hell” out of my rear delts with high-rep sets.) Might even think in terms of TUT rather than reps per se.

If you were to hit your delts like this, they couldn’t help but blow up. So don’t come crying to me if you have to turn sideways to get through your front door!

320

you and I train shoulders in an identical fashion. That makes me happy