Experiment - Test Prop Cycles for Reversing PFS?

Pharma
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I know what PFS is (post fins steroids syndrome)… it can Ben a very troublesome condition that significantly impacts ones quality of life

I believe there is now a foundation dedicated to researching the condition

I don’t believe any “cure” has been widely recognised, and therefore perhaps experimentation for the time being (although not particularly responsible and associated with numerous risks… both acute and chronic) may be how you figure this out… or not

What were you initially using 5a reductase inbibitors? Prostate enlargement? Androgenic alopecia?

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Yes indeed, Post Finasteride Syndrome. Had a very small bald spot and took about 8mg spread over a month Sept/Oct '18. Sorry if TMI but got flaccid sexting one night and thought “right, that’s enough fin I’m not staying on this and getting sides” then quit, all fine for two weeks and then over the course of a few days HUGE horrifying anxiety, what I can only describe as the collapse of me. No sleep, overwhelming anxiety, brain fog, searing headache. The words “horror” and “ruin” just battering me night and day for months. No boners nor libido. Seriously see why lots of lads kill themselves, nobody should have to go through that.

Signed up to propeciahelp and the rest back then, been at it a year now. Nothing has improved me hugely, but I’ve come a little way, despite sexually declining a bit.

Risks (albeit sensible or semi-sensible) are worth taking, because honestly this is no life.

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I imagine if someone was trying to hit DHT hard (with the assumption of a snap back or wake up, as you theorized) masteron or primo would be the more preferred drugs vs anavar. Even winstrol would get the job done. If prostate enlargement is a concern then you’d have to look into things like RAD-140 which has some clinical data (albeit thin) regarding how it is protective of prostate tissue during a cycle.

This is all one step above my level of competence as far as science goes, but I have to believe that anavar is the least likely candidate available to you at this time. But perhaps I am wrong. It’s happened before and will happen again.

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Anavar binds very strongly to the AR, but is minimally androgenic… in theory the best candidate here would be straight injectable DHT

But then you’ve got prostate, cardiovascular issues to worry about

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Thanks muchly to both of you for carrying on. No worries about the “being wrong” at all; just experimenting here, albeit educated and safely as possible, within the realms of the regular risks of AAS ofc. I’m grateful indeed for the expertise and opinions.

So, in theory then, I could drop the Super R-Andro from the cycle in favour of Mast Prop (I guess that ester would be the one to go for) and run that, say, 50mg EOD alongside the Test Prop, maybe upping to 75mg EOD? Have no worries over heart health and prostate checked perfect pre-PFS. Lord knows what fin did to it (if anything) but I doubt it’s gotten enlarged, and fin’s done perhaps what fin will do to it.

What WILL be interesting is boosting androgens at all and seeing if I feel better/worse for it. Tribulus makes me feel like SHIT in PFS but I don’t recall R-Andro (from previous cycles) making me feel bad. Even felt a little better.

Anyways, our cycle for the sake of experiments looks a bit like:

Cycle: 8 weeks

Test Prop - 50mg EOD week 1, 75mg EOD weeks 2-8 (MAYBE 100mg EOD weeks 3-8)
Masteron Prop - 50mg EOD weeks 1-8
HCG - 1000iu - 1x/week, weeks 1-8
Arimidex - 0.5mg ED but go higher as needed to prevent estrogen surges. Take when needed.

PCT: 5 weeks

Clomid - (Day1 100mg) 50/50/20/20/0
Nolva - 20/20/20/10/10
Tribulus (MediHerb) - 4 tabs/day split AM/PM -or- Blue Up (stim free) 4tabs/day split AM/PM

On standby:

Letro
Antibiotics (SO many - in case of infection)

Looking worth a punt?

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You’re aware how much propanoic acid can hurt right? I never found it to be all that bad but there are some who say it’s absolutely crippling to shoot

Secondly, not all antibiotics are created the same

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HCG should be split up instead of 1000iu at once. Reconsider using Arimadex in a much lower dosage as in less than half of what you posted to maybe none. Pick one SERM to run during PCT. Dont waste money on Tribulus IMO. Good luck.

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Thanks unreal - hope workout went good too! Yes antibiotics I’ve many and varied, and if I get an abscess it’s probably time for the quack’s. Still, fully stocked that’s for sure! Had it anyway (some PFS recoveries from several types. Amazing what aquarists and vet stockists can get…)

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Thanks blshaw!

I’m now going to go and read a bit more on the HCG dosages, thanks for that. I’ve read a few conflicting reports (mostly from studies posted by BBers) and have already frozen a few 1000iu syringes! Lol, over-enthusiastic… But yes I think I read half-life of HCG at around 3-4 days. If I remember right. So I took that to mean levels at day 3.5 would be half that (in other words, represent a dosage of 500iu taken at day 3.5 anyway.) I totally get the single 1000iu dose would mean levels less consistent/stable for the pituitary though. Is that the thinking behind it? I’ll have another read around. I still have two vials of 5000iu powder to make up, so can start over.

The arimidex I’ll probably use as needed, though I’m braced for needing a large-ish amount as allegedly PFS patients get huge estrogen symptoms. Well, either way I’m totally stocked up on it and on letro (and on nolva, 6-bromo, clomid and about everything!) I’ll try and gauge what I need as I go.

The SERMS I might keep as they are, if you think there’s any merit in it. Clomid I want to keep as the mainstay as some PFS patients have recovered on clomid-style PCTs alone. Reports of the same on nolva also. Nolva I “know” from prohormone cycles of old and recovered me fine, and I believe they work slightly differently. And/or at any rate there’s no “harm” in running both.

Thanks very much for the advice though, I think I’ll look into a few bits some more. If you’ve any followup advice on the things I’m looking unsure about I’d be happy to read it.

Thanks also again to everyone for their time. This’ll be quite an experiment! :slight_smile:

I’m looking forward to seeing if increased androgens make me feel worse or make any symptoms worse in fact. My thinking is maybe even start the prop for a week EOD before the mast and see. If I feel better then drop back after a week or so, it might reinforce the idea that epigenetic silencing is being solidified further, which won’t be bad in itself it’d just indicate that there’s some plasticity to me still in that respect, and that’d be encouraging.

Masteron being added should, I think, get “the plumbing” working again. If so then good, if the opposite/as above then that’s something else, if nothing then that’d be mysterious.

Also a week before and MONTHS after PCT I plan on running a load of BHB and butyrate supps. And perhaps lutolein. Thinking there is that HDAC inhibition might “force” some of the epigenetic changes the right way after, as test levels drop and the body (having been used to high DHT and test throughout the cycle) scrabbles around to get more of that hormone action back. Then the ship rights itself???

We’ll have to see and of course much of the above is WILD WILD speculation and FAR outside the scope of what I could reasonably expect hardened PFS veterans to “answer” let alone BBers - so thanks for pondering this one with me fellas. :slight_smile:

If ant the very very least what I’m doing isn’t “dangerous” or outright wrong in terms of an AAS cycle then I think I’ll be gold and I’m nearly there.

Might even start Monday!

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Yes and this is a better idea IMO.

Former 10 year Propecia user here. I had the same issues prior to TRT however I believe it was more of an E2 dominance issue rather than being an over aromatizer. Once on exogenous test my T/E2 balanced out better with no need for Arimadex. This didn’t happen overnight and all I’m saying is proceed with caution.

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Thanks again. I’ll do a little more research on the HCG frequency (not that I doubt your advice ofc, just want to read around on the ins and outs) and arimidex is on hand, I’ll keep an eye out not to crush estrogen too hard.

PFS veteran as well? Damn, sorry it happened to you there. Hope you’re doing good on the TRT.

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Its taken awhile to find my balance. My experience hasn’t been as rosy as others would tell you. I wish I didn’t need it and still have my doubts it was the correct path to choose. My only advice is to be patient with the results. Its a lot of trial and error.

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Feel like I’m getting there. Considerations from reading around are:

  • Still undecided on the HCG frequency. Bit more reading to do.

  • Nolvadex and arimidex I’ve read some dire warnings on from the PFS side. Not so much against clomid. I’ll hold off the AI on cycle until I feel estrogen symptoms, and also fwiw run bloods after a couple weeks. Will start maybe 0.25mg arimidex EOD if I feel estrogen is high, but as I’ve only done a few prohormone cycles prior I don’t know I’m a super expert. We’ll see. Nolva might be 20/10/10/10/10 for PCT alongside the clomid if it’s even run at all.

  • I do wonder I might have had an easier ride with test/mast enanthate and injecting THAT 50mg EOD for more stable levels, but I think at the end it’ll pay off with the quicker “whack” of the HPTA axis getting on PCT sooner. I mean, that’s totally speculation ofc but if I try another cycle that’s what I do.

Thanks everyone, so, final plan more or less is:

Cycle: 8 weeks

Test Prop - 50mg EOD week 1, 75mg EOD weeks 2-8 (MAYBE 100mg EOD weeks 3-8)
Masteron Prop - 50mg EOD weeks 1-8
HCG - 1000iu - 1x/week, weeks 1-8
[MAYBE] Arimidex - 0.25mg ED but go higher as needed to prevent estrogen surges. Take when/if needed.

PCT: 5 weeks

Clomid - (Day1 100mg) 50/50/20/20/0
Nolva - 20/10/10/10/10
[MAYBE] Tribulus (MediHerb) - 4 tabs/day split AM/PM -or- Blue Up (stim free) 4tabs/day split AM/PM

On standby:

Letro

Will rotate thighs and glutes, injecting test and mast to the same site. I’ll definitely add in ventroglutes if I feel I can reliably find that one!

Quite excited to get on. :slight_smile:

Thanks again everyone for the patient help. This’ll do some good or rule some things out and I’ll log it here too if nobody minds a non-BB AAS thread.

I do also lift I promise!

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More thinking today, sorry. Just might be of benefit to log thinking in a detailed fashion. Fully aware treating/fixing PFS is outside the scope of T-nation but hell, if we get a cure here it’ll be quite something. And I’ll definitely enjoy it too! :slight_smile:

So, I’m dropping the Nolva entirely. There are too many stories of people in PFS suffering for it than getting cured (although at least one did.)

Heard the following and will bear it in mind, esp as I have VERY high Prog with PFS. I will get some Caber (Dostinex) in for PCT too, as this “cure” does look for all the world like a PCT substitute:

…2) Second way to downregulate Progesterone receptors, is by blocking Estrogen. NEVER use tamoxifen for this, it increases Progestin activity.
You use Enclomiphene in smaller doses or Clomid in in high dosages 150mg 3 days, 100mg 4 days, 50mg 2 week, 25mg 4 weeks. The whole cure takes place when you start lowering the dosage, so taking Clomid 50mg let’s say for 5 month, does NOTHING (increases testosterone, decreases testosterone). Small doses of Clomid won’t work, they are Estrogenic. From week 2 on Clomid, you need to start taking Zinc with vitamin E. Don’t take Zinc before that. Zinc needs to be taken since if not taken while you lower Clomid it won’t cure you. Also, you need to use Dostinex, half a pill, once a week. To let your steroid production, go up.

Basically, the idea is to substitute opposition of Estrogen by Progesterone to opposition of Estrogen by DHT. (that is another way to look at it, maybe it will be easier to understand) Only in this case DHT receptors will be upregulated to normal. They are very sensitive to Estrogen. You increase Estrogen and Estrogen receptors with Clomid and then when you start getting off Clomid. it will be leaving your system with Estrogen receptors and Estrogen high. This is a good thing. you also use Dostinex. In this moment, you take Zinc not to allow Progesterone receptors to upregulate. This will make your CNS upregulate DHT receptors. and increase steroid sensitivity and steroid levels for those who have them low.
Therefore, some people have sensitivity to DHT which causes hairloss, since receptors are upregulated. usually happens with high Copper status and goes away with Zinc and Manganese treatment not Finasteride. This should be the hairloss cure instead of Finasteride. And metabolism of Manganese and Zinc is what is impaired in hairloss.
Manganese blocks 3b HSD, Zinc upregulates it, but Manganese increases Prolactin and lowering Estrogen receptors and thus DHT sensitivity, but Zinc increases DHT levels. This should be the pathway of decreasing DHT sensitivity, not thru Progesterone receptors.
Any way out of 3 will work. Then if you experience hairloss after you recover, you can add Zinc Manganese.
Don’t forget Dostinex, without it. Your Estrogen receptors won’t get upregulated and that will not make your CNS turn up DHT receptors.
Can’t lower Estrogen on Clomid. We want high Estrogen and high Estrogen receptors for your body to upregulate DHT receptors. That is why the whole cure from Clomid comes when it starts leaving your system. And in this very moment you need to be on Dostinex and Zinc and vitamin E. Otherwise your body will try to oppose Estrogen with Progesterone and will try to increase Progesterone receptors, but we don’t want that, we want your body to oppose Estrogen with DHT. I hope it is clear. The whole crash from propecia happens since your brain substitutes Estrogen opposition by Progesterone and not DHT like it is supposed to be.

That does look like a HUGE amount of clomid to me though. Not sure if anyone passing fancies any comment on that but grateful for anything as always. Will order in Caber and now proposed cycle looks like:

Cycle: 8 weeks

Test Prop - 50mg EOD week 1, 75mg EOD weeks 2-8 (MAYBE 100mg EOD weeks 3-8)
Masteron Prop - 50mg EOD week 1, 75mg EOD weeks 2-8
HCG - 1000iu - 1x/week, weeks 1-8
[MAYBE] Arimidex - 0.25mg ED but go higher as needed to prevent estrogen surges. Take when/if needed.

PCT: 6 weeks

Clomid - 150mg days 1-3, 100mg days 4-7, then 50/50/25/25/25
Caber - 0.5mg weekly
Zinc/vitamin E - double RDAs from week 2 on clomid
[MAYBE] Tribulus (MediHerb) - 4 tabs/day split AM/PM -or- Blue Up (stim free) 4tabs/day split AM/PM

On standby:

Letro

Anything by way of comment or opinion welcome. Looks to be almost there.

EDIT - meant to also add doses of test and mast upped a little bit. Thinking is I want this to be a ‘jolt’ but on snapback, rather than upfront, so I’m creeping the steroids up over the first couple of weeks, in case the rushed return of hormones causes PFS in some, and doing so with exogenous test and mast just cements in the condition. I’d go higher too but this is my first injectable cycle.

Sooo… probably will end up going with HCG 500iu 2/week and take the hit on the already-prepped syringes in my freezer. Will make up the rest of it at the weekend and then first pin Monday.

Thank you all so so much. I’ll log it and keep on lifting (such as I can these days) and we’ll see if spring 2020 breaks any ground on my PFS.

:slight_smile:

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Day 1:

Might not do daily updates, but steroid virgin here, and objectives are a little different in this thread so thought I’d log the first day.

First site I chose was right thigh. Will alternate thighs and glutes. For first pins I thought I might as well look at what I’m doing and have a bit of practice.

Quick shower, anti-bac down working area, wiped stopper and drew .5ml test with a 23g and swapped to a 25 to pin. Wiped leg, pulled skin at pin site as I held to z-track, in it went, aspirated, little bubble, eased plunger in over about 30s. Repeated this with the mast, same site. All went textbook as far as I can guess, zero pain and I was VERY excited to get started. :slight_smile:

HCG 500iu into pinched stomach fat, now that I literally felt nothing. Lovely. Kept some alcohol hand gel next to me also, and pretty much after every stage I sanitised hands. Will do HCG Mondays and Fridays.

I’m thinking I need to wait a week until I feel anything ofc, but at least got some positivity. Maybe even sooner for me since I’m in a body so long starved of hormones. We’ll see.

Well, that was easy! :slight_smile:

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Draw both in same barrel and only pin once. No need to multi stick.

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Thanks blshaw. :slight_smile: Glad you’ve got an eye on me still too.

I think I will try that out soon, but I’m still new to drawing (and indeed all the processes) and I’m not 100% on it really. Today I used 2x1ml syringes, but I did also buy in some 2ml ones (with pre-fitted 23g blues) which would actually be perfect for drawing both… I’ll make that a goal for next week, once I’ve done a full round of each site and got a little practice in. Honestly I don’t mind currently, felt nothing pain-wise from either flavour of prop.

Slight ‘dead leg’ feeling just about starting, which I expected tbh. No magical changes in symptoms just yet and I haven’t become a towering beast of muscle instantly either.

EDIT - Weds week 1, don’t want to clutter up thread but tried drawing both test and mast into the same barrel today. Went just about ok, but I’m not sure when swapping to pin/draw needles I don’t lose a little to the air bubble. I think (unless anyone yells at me) I’ll pin each ester in the same site, one after the other - just seems easier to measure it and a little pinning practice definitely won’t hurt.

Pin site did seem to get a sort of DOMS feeling the day after - it’s not too bad and it’s nothing next to having PFS! Lol. I’ll see how it feels after a full rotation of all sites, and look forward to better lifts in the gym too. No changes I’ve noticed just yet beyond placebo effect, but I’m quite enjoying the feeling of “the dark side”.

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@iron_yuppie (very sorry to prod you there Iron) I’ve found something I’d love if you could cast an eye over if you have time. I think I owe you all beers in here for your efforts too btw…

Anyways, I found the recovery from a cycle and the PCT the gent did looks MAD. Running clomid, nolva AND HCG together.

Excerpts follow:

Then I gave up all hope. I accepted its over. I have a friend I owe my life to.
I did what he suggested. Had to go to many doctors to get prescriptions.
I did three months on testosterone injections and muscle building. Gained 25 pounds of mostly muscle.
Then I did a pact by my friend’s instructions with hcg and clomid and tamoxifen.
I felt like shit and thought it didn’t work but I continued it
A week after I was done with the pct something changed.
Penis grew again. Erections were easy to get. Another two weeks and I started getting horny.
That was two months ago. I wanted to see it lasts and so far it didn’t. I pray to god it continues.
…
I don’t recommend anyone trying it without a doctor.
But maybe some doctor is reading it and can use this to help someone

I did the pct for four weeks exactly.
I did the first day 300 mg clomid, then 100mg for the first two weeks, 50mg for the third week, and none for the forth week.
Tamoxifen I did 20mg during the four weeks every day.
Hcg I did 3000iu the first day then 250iu every other day for the four weeks

I didn’t feel any improvement and felt worse during that period but after that period I healed which is very weird.
…
I tried hcg alone in 2014. It had a little effect on me but it passed after that.
I read an article about bodybuilders who fuck up their hormones and it said you need hcg together with seems [SERMS] to keep results.
I.e. ad very little though.
Most of what I did was just based on what a friend who is a bodybuilder told me to do and I followed blindly while having my doctor keep tabs on my health.

Now, fully aware here we’re experimenting and nobody is a qualified PFS doctor and everyone’s commenting out of the goodness of their hearts not as experts and all my own risk etc, but DOES anyone have any opinions on this (kinda huge-looking) PCT? Especially curious on the HCG too. It does look like some of the madder restart PCTs I’ve googled a while back, along with Dr Scally’s Power PCT, though my understanding is even a little HCG will stop pituitary and hypothalmus sending LH to the testes, so I wonder if he recovered IN SPITE of the HCG… Still, convincing recovery and if I only get two shots at a massive cycle+PCT per year, I’m now wondering if just aping this guy might be worth it for the unknown mechanism of the good it’s done.

Any and all opinions welcome, thanks all.

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Small update, we’re well into week two and lifts are increasing, I’m up 2kg I think and face is bloated (someone actually pointed this out to me before I even noticed) so it looks like my SiS labs gear is good. Slightly slightly sensitive nips too…

From next week, doses will be 1ml (100mg) test prop and 0.5ml (50mg) mast prop EOD. Feeling my way around arimidex, now going to take 0.25mg EOD. HCG I’ll do 500iu 2/week.

Decision on PCT has been reached. Regarding this being an experiment, I can’t really pass up a PCT that’s played a part in curing someone. So that’ll be:

Day1 - 300mg clomid, 20mg nolva, 3000iu HCG
Rest of week 1 - 100mg clomid ED, 20mg nolva ED, 250iu HCG EOD
Week 2 - 100mg clomid ED, 20mg nolva ED, 250iu HCG EOD
Week 3 - 50mg clomid ED, 20mg nolva ED, 250iu HCG EOD
Week 4 - 20mg nolva ED, 250iu HCG EOD

I anticipate feeling HORRIBLE on the PCT and crying to Frozen the whole time. The magic should happen on the snapback.

Currently I “feel” pretty good. Sleep is better, lifts are definitely better and I’m able to operate at work in a way I couldn’t before. Injecting isn’t a hassle beyond the time it takes. You do certainly get a “dead leg/buttock” feeling from the prop but it’s nothing you couldn’t just handle. I’m also STARVING too - I see why people want to dirty bulk! My digestion is still quite bad, though not as bad as before, but still awful. I recall FNM from the fora who recovered this way mentioning that his digestion suddenly picked up in PCT, so I’m hoping for that.

Theory still is then a huge whack to the HPTA axis and PCT to force a correction along with some HDAC inhibitors creates enough turmoil to either un-silence or reactivate or re-sensitise androgen receptors and resolve things. Let’s hope anyway.

Thanks all, wish me luck. At least I’m feeling a little better which is a HUGE mercy after the past 14 months.

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Why aren’t you just doing trt? Run your free t high end of normal for 3 months and report back.

I recovered from pfs by taking trt. 220mg a week.

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