I understand the emotion–trust me I do–but let’s treat kindly with Beowolf. I generally find him to be very pleasant if he’s treated in kind. Not that you got all crazy, though. Heh.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
It means I’m not tearing into you for being unable to recognize that I bolded certain parts of the quoted text.
I don’t expect you to understand why either.[/quote]
LMAO - you tearing into me? for not paying attention to your “bolding” the word fasted? WHy would I pay attention to something that you obviously (by your post) have demonstrated that you do not understand? You obviously think fasting means not injesting any type of sustenance . . . which just goes to highlight your own ignorance . . . so no, I purposefully skipped it ans ridiculed you anyways . . .[/quote]
No, I guess you’re right. A pregnant woman fasting, that’s totally healthy for a developing baby.[/quote]
yep, I knew you’d miss it - there you went . . .way out there in left field again . . .
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I’ve never seen a fetus be born as an end table or a bookcase.[/quote]
Where have I heard this type of argument before? Oh that’s right - “If humans are descneded from monkeys…”.
What a joke.[/quote]
??? fetus is not born as a bookcase is the equivalent of macroevolution? so you do think it is possible for a fetus to turn into a bookcase . . . once again, your logic escapes me, oh great one . . . . your wisdom is far beyond our mere mortal powers . . . bla bla bla bla
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I understand the emotion–trust me I do–but let’s treat kindly with Beowolf. I generally find him to be very pleasant if he’s treated in kind. Not that you got all crazy, though. Heh.[/quote]
Ok - I’ll play nice with the new kid . . 
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
It means I’m not tearing into you for being unable to recognize that I bolded certain parts of the quoted text.
I don’t expect you to understand why either.[/quote]
LMAO - you tearing into me? for not paying attention to your “bolding” the word fasted? WHy would I pay attention to something that you obviously (by your post) have demonstrated that you do not understand? You obviously think fasting means not injesting any type of sustenance . . . which just goes to highlight your own ignorance . . . so no, I purposefully skipped it ans ridiculed you anyways . . .[/quote]
No, I guess you’re right. A pregnant woman fasting, that’s totally healthy for a developing baby.[/quote]
yep, I knew you’d miss it - there you went . . .way out there in left field again . . .[/quote]
Fasting is primarily the act of willingly abstaining from some or all food, drink, or both, for a period of time.
If it isn’t defined, then I’m going to make assumptions. Seriously, how old are you? Sometimes I think you’re younger than me.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I’ve never seen a fetus be born as an end table or a bookcase.[/quote]
Where have I heard this type of argument before? Oh that’s right - “If humans are descneded from monkeys…”.
What a joke.[/quote]
??? fetus is not born as a bookcase is the equivalent of macroevolution? so you do think it is possible for a fetus to turn into a bookcase . . . once again, your logic escapes me, oh great one . . . . your wisdom is far beyond our mere mortal powers . . . bla bla bla bla[/quote]
Same mentality. Try to keep up.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
She prayed and fasted for 2 days.[/quote]
Really? While pregnant?
I thought life was sacred.[/quote]
You do not understand the female body do you? Fasting for 2 days is not going to do anything to the fetus. The female body will take from itself to feed the fetus until the female body is treatened with death. You might want to reconsider your thought.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Fasting is primarily the act of willingly abstaining from some or all food, drink, or both, for a period of time.
If it isn’t defined, then I’m going to make assumptions. Seriously, how old are you? Sometimes I think you’re younger than me.[/quote]
No dear child, I’ve been around a long time and I know the manner in which fasting is conducted by the vast majority of Christians, a piece of information that has obviously escaped you during your brief stent on this planet . . . .
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Same mentality. Try to keep up.[/quote]
I would, but going backwards and descending at light speed while devolving at the same time, well, this just far exceeds my poor skills . . . .
[quote]weby wrote:
radical christians?, i think the best thing is not to believe in religion[/quote]
I’m not sure many people “believe” in religion. I think they follow it.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
We have made our case logically, it is a valid and sound argument. Now, some people say it is not a good argument, but after being yelled at in the epitome of knowledge (universities) for five years, I have never come across a sound argument and not even close to a good argument. I have listened to philosophy majors, philosophy doctorates, philosophy teachers and deans, all kinds of different students, student leaders, student body presidents, none of come with a sound argument, only emotional arguments.
[/quote]
it’s one thing to sit in an ivory tower and think logical thoughts, it’s another thing to live in the real world. What if this woman were your daughter? Could you honestly tell her that she had to go through with the pregnancy even if it meant her death? I have a daughter, and I could not do it. Yes, this is based on emotion - I love my daughter so much that I would be willing to give up my own life for hers, and I could not bear the thought of her dying. This is why I left the church. Priests will never understand what it’s like to face the prospect of having a child die. All the Ph.D.s in philosophy and theology cannot substitute for this real life experience. As such, I believe that priests are not qualified to render an opinion on this issue.
As for a logical argument, a fetus is a potential human. As such, it deserves certain protections. I do not agree with having an abortion for convenience purposes. However, when the mother’s life is at stake, you’re looking at balancing a potential human life with a life already in being. The life in being wins.[/quote]
So, I talk about a logic argument and you accuse me of not living in the real world? Honest question, curious where I stand with you, so I know if to continue this or not.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Here’s where we are and where we’re going. Abortion as fall back safety swtich for our self-interested, individualistic, restless pleasure (sex) seeking. And, as one member even points out, it makes economic sense when considering the poor. Thank you, Freakonomics! Then, there’s the increasing acceptance of euthanasia. I know, I know, “I’m just defending choice!” Oh please, it’s economic ‘sense’ driving acceptance, again. Those burdensome ill and old should choose, and be able to choose, to do the honorable thing. Who wants to be a burden, amiright? Which is why both the Democrat and the libertarian defend both movements. For the Democrat, near universal acceptance would mean more people making the right ‘economic’ choice. That is, less poor and elderly to burden their welfare state. For the libertarian, it means fewer to demand a welfare state. And, of course both support the creation of human life in the test tube for the vampiric purpose of extending their own lives, hoping science will deliver before being forced by the ravages of time to consider the ‘noble decision’ themselves.
We Catholics and other pro-lifers (including some atheists, I’m sure) have drawn a line in the sand. You do not purposefully target another human life to save another, or even yourself. We will not give an inch, because there is no inch to give. Besides, as above, pro-aborts would just take a mile. [/quote]
Sloth,
I’m both a Democrat and a Libertarian. I am pro-life, my Catholic morals are in direct conflict with a lot of people I have similar views with when it comes to abortion as I see it as direct aggression towards another person who has as much rights as me.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
the Fifth Amendment, which provides that the government shall not deprive a person of life without due process of law. Only no amount of due process will remedy the situation so it is a substantive due process issue.[/quote]
…
I agree. We should wait to age of majority, put them on trial, and then execute them if they’re judged not to be deserving of life.[/quote]
You don’t get it. What I’m saying is that the government should not be given the power to decide who lives and who dies, at least not in this context (war and capital punishment are completely different contexts). If a pregnant woman whose life is threatened by the pregnancy decides to go to term and dies, that is her choice and I respect that. In fact, I think such a decision is very laudable. But it was her decision. It was not a decision imposed upon her by a bunch of people who blindly follow the dictates of some old guy in Rome who was chosen to have the title of Pope not by a democratic election but by a secret conclave, who’s never been married, never had children, and wouldn’t have a clue about what it would be like to lose a wife or a daughter. [/quote]
So what you are saying is that it is cool that government says unborn babies can die, and it’s cool to go into another persons country and kill them, and it’s cool to kill another person after someone has already died just to make the family, maybe, fell better? Interesting, you sure like to kill things.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Here’s where we are and where we’re going. Abortion as fall back safety swtich for our self-interested, individualistic, restless pleasure (sex) seeking. And, as one member even points out, it makes economic sense when considering the poor. Thank you, Freakonomics! Then, there’s the increasing acceptance of euthanasia. I know, I know, “I’m just defending choice!” Oh please, it’s economic ‘sense’ driving acceptance, again. Those burdensome ill and old should choose, and be able to choose, to do the honorable thing. Who wants to be a burden, amiright? Which is why both the Democrat and the libertarian defend both movements. For the Democrat, near universal acceptance would mean more people making the right ‘economic’ choice. That is, less poor and elderly to burden their welfare state. For the libertarian, it means fewer to demand a welfare state. And, of course both support the creation of human life in the test tube for the vampiric purpose of extending their own lives, hoping science will deliver before being forced by the ravages of time to consider the ‘noble decision’ themselves.
We Catholics and other pro-lifers (including some atheists, I’m sure) have drawn a line in the sand. You do not purposefully target another human life to save another, or even yourself. We will not give an inch, because there is no inch to give. Besides, as above, pro-aborts would just take a mile. [/quote]
You sound mad. Okay, I’ll get mad, too. I don’t know if you’re married or not. I am and I have a daughter. I would give my own life to save my daughter’s life. If the choice was between my daughter’s life and the life of another innocent life and my daughter asked me to save her life, I would personally kill the innocent life even if that meant the death penalty and subsequent damnation to hell.
[/quote]
See, you can’t even get a scenario that is the equivalent.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
You sound mad.[/quote]
Nope. Just reporting what I see.
Ok. I just hope if someone else was to make the same decision as you…well, I’d hope the innocent life they deliberately took wouldn’t be that of someone you loved.
Why, am I not suprised? I hope only the best for you and yours, though you might not believe it. I wouldn’t wish ill on you or your family, even if it would supposedly prove some point of mine. I’ve drawn that line in the sand, and all.
[/quote]
I should know better than to get upset over the Internet. I don’t wish you ill will. The thing is, being the cynic that I am, I believe that your line in the sand would not be so well-defined if you had dealt with a difficult pregnancy as I have. I didn’t arrive at my position simply by reading some libertarian propaganda and thinking, “yeah, that sounds good.” My views were formed by experience. And in the real world, experience counts. The Catholic Church is the only institution I know where persons can make authoritative pronouncements on issues of marriage, family, and pregnancy with absolutely no practical experience. I believe if priests could marry and have families, the Catholic teachings on birth control, divorce, and abortions involving the life of the mother would change completely and overnight. I’m just cynical that way.[/quote]
You arrived at your decision because of emotion, it is not our fault that you thought of killing your daughter. And to assume Sloth, or me do not have families is ridiculous, how does being emotionally and biologically attached to someone change right from wrong?
Your example of priests are void, go talk to the Anglican Rite and the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church, almost all those priests are married. All hold the same views, they do not hold some different view on it. I doubt you understand the teachings of the Church since they are far more advanced than secular teachings, and not barbaric as you portray them.
Yes, I do have a family, yes I have dealt with difficult pregnancies, I have dealt with over three hundred, I have dealt with a few of my own, what is your point?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Before I respond to your question, I’ll share a personal story since Headhunter shared one of his. My wife also went through a difficult pregnancy. We knew going in that it would be since she has health problems. But we did the responsible thing - we consulted with two of her doctors and then received care by an OB/GYN who specialized in high risk pregnancies. When things got dicey, this was by far the most stressful time in my life. Contrary to what you or others might think, I did not view my unborn child as simply a mass of tissue that could be terminated at will. I would have been distraught if she did not survive. But she did and is truly a great kid. I do not know what decision we would have made if things had gone wrong - I prefer not to think of it. But I do know one thing - I’ll be damned if I would have let this decision rest in the hands of some fucking government bureaucrat who could have cared less about us. That decision would have been between us and our doctor. Not you, the government, or a majority of so-called “concerned citizens” would have had any business intruding into that decision making process.
As far as I’m concerned, Headhunter and I are the only two people here who are qualified to render an opinion on the matter. We’ve lived through this. Unless you have gone through this experience, you just don’t know. I don’t care what you believe or how many religious scholars support you - you just don’t know.
[/quote]
I want to thank both of you for your stories. It personally means a lot to me.
I have been on the opposite side of this. My girlfriend/ future wife, decided to take the decision in our own hands. Not a day goes by, 13 years ago and on Valentines Day, do I not think what if. If I was Catholic I would have been excommunicated. I am not trying to rant on the Catholics, but it is not the church that determines my faith. If you kick me out then I will go to another denomination. I have repented of my sin, and God has forgiven me. My wife and I have paid our price for our disobedience. We have had a miscarriage, and my wife has been having complications from the abortion since it took place. God has blessed us with 3 beautiful children. Do not put your faith in a church or denomination. Put your faith in the One True God. [/quote]
If you were excommunicated from the Church, that paragraph right there would have gotten you back in. Yes, excommunication is a serious thing, but people make it larger than it is. Excommunication is simply the denial of the sacraments until repentance is had, just like the old days back when Christians confessed their sins in front of the whole community.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Before I respond to your question, I’ll share a personal story since Headhunter shared one of his. My wife also went through a difficult pregnancy. We knew going in that it would be since she has health problems. But we did the responsible thing - we consulted with two of her doctors and then received care by an OB/GYN who specialized in high risk pregnancies. When things got dicey, this was by far the most stressful time in my life. Contrary to what you or others might think, I did not view my unborn child as simply a mass of tissue that could be terminated at will. I would have been distraught if she did not survive. But she did and is truly a great kid. I do not know what decision we would have made if things had gone wrong - I prefer not to think of it. But I do know one thing - I’ll be damned if I would have let this decision rest in the hands of some fucking government bureaucrat who could have cared less about us. That decision would have been between us and our doctor. Not you, the government, or a majority of so-called “concerned citizens” would have had any business intruding into that decision making process.
As far as I’m concerned, Headhunter and I are the only two people here who are qualified to render an opinion on the matter. We’ve lived through this. Unless you have gone through this experience, you just don’t know. I don’t care what you believe or how many religious scholars support you - you just don’t know.
[/quote]
I want to thank both of you for your stories. It personally means a lot to me.
I have been on the opposite side of this. My girlfriend/ future wife, decided to take the decision in our own hands. Not a day goes by, 13 years ago and on Valentines Day, do I not think what if. If I was Catholic I would have been excommunicated. I am not trying to rant on the Catholics, but it is not the church that determines my faith. If you kick me out then I will go to another denomination. I have repented of my sin, and God has forgiven me. My wife and I have paid our price for our disobedience. We have had a miscarriage, and my wife has been having complications from the abortion since it took place. God has blessed us with 3 beautiful children. Do not put your faith in a church or denomination. Put your faith in the One True God. [/quote]
And sorry for your loss, buddy. I know it is hard.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I want to make it clear that I am against abortion under most circumstances. To me though, people are more important than ‘the rules’. Given the choices that that nun had, I agree with her decision. If I know that one death means one will live, but the alternative is almost certain death for mother and child, I choose the first.
I am not God and if God held me in judgment for such a decision, I would say to Him: “I’m not you. Under extreme circumstances, I did the best I could. If I am to be punished for doing the best I could, then go ahead.”
This thread brought bacl a lot bad memories. Sad I started it.[/quote]
See the thing is, that if you did the best to your knowledge, no one is trouble. But if you are in full knowledge, that is different. Cheer up buddy.
Fucking killing threads since May '05.
In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can’t hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man – living in the sky – who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!
– George Carlin Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997