10 posts in a row may not be a record,but it must be damn close.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
You arrived at your decision because of emotion, it is not our fault that you thought of killing your daughter.[/quote]
I’m not sure where you took this from because I never EVER thought of killing my unborn child. However, if the pregnancy had come to that, whether or not we would have chosen to continue or to terminate, that decision would have been ours and ours alone. Not the government’s, not yours, not Sloth’s, not the Pope’s, and not the College of Cardinals. That’s my point. I disagree with the Catholic teaching that abortion is wrong even if the mother’s life is in danger. I do not believe the Pope is infallible, I do not believe that the Catholic Church is the final word on moral issues. If you want to follow the Catholic teaching that’s fine. But you have no right telling me what to do. I have left the Church and I no longer consider myself a Catholic. I am not bound by the Pope’s dictates.
You may be right. But here’s the thing and I already mentioned this - if my daughter were going through a life-threatening pregnancy and wanted to terminate the pregnancy to save her life, I think she should have every right to do so. It may be based on emotion, it may not be the right moral thing to do, but I really don’t care. I love my daughter more than anything and I would give up my own life to save hers. I think God, if there is one, would cut me some slack on this one.
I’ve read many of the Church’s teachings. I think they were written by a bunch of celibate old men sitting in an ivory tower. I do not think that they are grounded in reality.
Are you married and do you have kids? If yes, then fine, we can talk. If not, the conversation stops here. Friends, brothers, sisters, nieces, and nephews don’t count. All I know is that something happened to me when I became a father. Unless you are a father yourself, you cannot comprehend this.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can’t hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man – living in the sky – who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!
– George Carlin Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997
[/quote]
Amen, Brother Ephrem! Preach it.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can’t hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man – living in the sky – who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!
– George Carlin Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997
[/quote]
Taking a human life in the womb. That’s my response.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can’t hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man – living in the sky – who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!
– George Carlin Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997
[/quote]
Taking a human life in the womb. That’s my response.[/quote]
I told my personal story in an effort to explain how a very difficult situation shaped my views on the matter. Yet you continue to see the world as black and white. You have a nice thing going. No need to think for yourself and wrestle with complicated issues. Just believe that some old celibate guy, elected to his position by other old celibate guys, is infallible and can actually figure out what the Great Sky Wizard wants. A Sky Wizard who has no problem allowing natural disasters to happen and lets little children die of cancer and other incurable diseases, yet finds the idea of masturbation so repulsive that he will send you to hell if you even think about doing it. I am through with religion. I’ve had it.
As Neil Peart said:
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
‘The stars aren’t aligned
Or the gods are malign…’
Blame is better to give than receive
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose freewill
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can’t hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man – living in the sky – who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!
– George Carlin Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997
[/quote]
Taking a human life in the womb. That’s my response.[/quote]
I told my personal story in an effort to explain how a very difficult situation shaped my views on the matter. Yet you continue to see the world as black and white. You have a nice thing going. No need to think for yourself and wrestle with complicated issues. Just believe that some old celibate guy, elected to his position by other old celibate guys, is infallible and can actually figure out what the Great Sky Wizard wants. A Sky Wizard who has no problem allowing natural disasters to happen and lets little children die of cancer and other incurable diseases, yet finds the idea of masturbation so repulsive that he will send you to hell if you even think about doing it. I am through with religion. I’ve had it.
As Neil Peart said:
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
‘The stars aren’t aligned
Or the gods are malign…’
Blame is better to give than receive
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose freewill[/quote]
Deliberate killing of a human life. I don’t need poetry or comedians to make my case.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Deliberate killing of a human life. I don’t need poetry or comedians to make my case.[/quote]
…you ride a very high horse my friend. Why is it, do you think, that a self-professed born-again christian president was not able, in the 8 years he was in office, to illegalize abortion? Assuming Bush, as a christian, shared the same opinion on this matter as you, why did that not happen?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Deliberate killing of a human life. I don’t need poetry or comedians to make my case.[/quote]
…you ride a very high horse my friend. Why is it, do you think, that a self-professed born-again christian president was not able, in the 8 years he was in office, to illegalize abortion? Assuming Bush, as a christian, shared the same opinion on this matter as you, why did that not happen?[/quote]
High horse? It’s a human life. We established life. Then we established human. Then we were about to establish invididulity of the organism (own genome), but everyone retreated into comedians and poetry. So, no. No high horse needed.
Hey, I tried to get the discussion going on my own claim. I tried to get people to follow along step by step in my thinking, determining if a human life was being snuffed out. At any one of my questions you had the chance to stop me cold. None of you took me up on it. And this is the outright cowardice of pro-choicers showing through. Own it and defend it for what it is. Stop with the games already.
Go ahead and post as much poetry and comedy bits as you wish. If, if, you folks develop the backbone (if not a rotten heart) to defend the deliberate, pre-meditated, purposeful taking of an innocent and individual human life, I’ll respond. But enough false debate over what the act accomplishes. Now here comes a snappy remark, with an obvious avoidance of my line of questioning. But, another option is to let the real and honest debate begin.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Deliberate killing of a human life. I don’t need poetry or comedians to make my case.[/quote]
…you ride a very high horse my friend. Why is it, do you think, that a self-professed born-again christian president was not able, in the 8 years he was in office, to illegalize abortion? Assuming Bush, as a christian, shared the same opinion on this matter as you, why did that not happen?[/quote]
High horse? It’s a human life. We established life. Then we established human. Then we were about to establish invididulity of the organism (own genome), but everyone retreated into comedians and poetry. So, no. No high horse needed.
Hey, I tried to get the discussion going on my own claim. I tried to get people to follow along step by step in my thinking, determining if a human life was being snuffed out. At any one of my questions you had the chance to stop me cold. None of you took me up on it. And this is the outright cowardice of pro-choicers showing through. Own it and defend it for what it is. Stop with the games already. Go ahead and post as much poetry and comedy bits as you wish. If, if, you folks develop the backbone (if not a rotten heart) to defend the deliberate, pre-meditated, purposeful taking of an individual human life, I’ll respond. But enough false debate over what the act accomplishes. Now here comes a snappy remark, with an obvious avoidance of my line of questioning. The real debate commence.[/quote]
…we did this song and dance before, and i haven’t beaten around the bush with regards to my opinion, but i ask you again: if this is such a strong issue for [not only] religious folk, why hasn’t the law been changed when Bush got the chance?
Why does Bush’s inability to get it done have any bearing on my own steadfast support of the pro-life movement? And the government is alot more complex than just an executive office, by the way.
total side note or maybe relevant but my friend was a human development major and she was telling me something about memory and random stuff with human development… of course you can’t really be certain etc… like you can’t ask a baby… but you can test a whole bunch etc…
But your long term memory or your memory or something dealing with memory doesn’t actually kick in until you’re 2-3… like you don’t even know you exist… like thats why you can’t remember anything from that young… the stuff you do are substituted memories from repeated stories etc… from your parents.
I was wondering if anyone knows anything about this because apparently I am to lazy to ask her again or search google for an appropriate source.
…doesn’t it anger you? If you have such a strong opinion on such an emotional issue like abortion debating the issue on a forum doesn’t help your cause much, does it?
…are you doing something about it, in your own way?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…doesn’t it anger you? If you have such a strong opinion on such an emotional issue like abortion debating the issue on a forum doesn’t help your cause much, does it?
…are you doing something about it, in your own way?[/quote]
From time and money, to speaking up when the issue is raised, to refusing to ever vote for a pro-choice candidate…
Does belittling the religious on a forum help your cause much? Do you give time, money, speak up, and vote for your cause? Honest question. Since you no less use tactics which stoke emotions and passions, it must be important to you.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Deliberate killing of a human life. I don’t need poetry or comedians to make my case.[/quote]
…you ride a very high horse my friend. Why is it, do you think, that a self-professed born-again christian president was not able, in the 8 years he was in office, to illegalize abortion? Assuming Bush, as a christian, shared the same opinion on this matter as you, why did that not happen?[/quote]
High horse? It’s a human life. We established life. Then we established human. Then we were about to establish invididulity of the organism (own genome), but everyone retreated into comedians and poetry. So, no. No high horse needed.
Hey, I tried to get the discussion going on my own claim. I tried to get people to follow along step by step in my thinking, determining if a human life was being snuffed out. At any one of my questions you had the chance to stop me cold. None of you took me up on it. And this is the outright cowardice of pro-choicers showing through. Own it and defend it for what it is. Stop with the games already.
Go ahead and post as much poetry and comedy bits as you wish. If, if, you folks develop the backbone (if not a rotten heart) to defend the deliberate, pre-meditated, purposeful taking of an innocent and individual human life, I’ll respond. But enough false debate over what the act accomplishes. Now here comes a snappy remark, with an obvious avoidance of my line of questioning. But, another option is to let the real and honest debate begin.[/quote]
I was discussing this in the limited context of allowing abortion to save the life of the mother. I was not discussing any other situation. Here are my questions:
Why is the life of a fetus worth more than the life of the mother? Implicit in the prohibition against abortion even in cases where the mother’s life is in danger is the idea that one life is worth more than another. I thought they were equal.
If you feel that the civil law should prohibit all abortions, including those that could save the life of the mother, what authority does the government have in telling a woman that she cannot have a procedure that could save her life? I’ll answer this question for you - there is no authority for such a law. The Constitution specifically says that the government cannot deprive a person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. If you don’t like it, feel free to amend the Constitution. Good luck with that.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…doesn’t it anger you? If you have such a strong opinion on such an emotional issue like abortion debating the issue on a forum doesn’t help your cause much, does it?
…are you doing something about it, in your own way?[/quote]
From time and money, to speaking up when the issue is raised, to refusing to ever vote for a pro-choice candidate…
Does belittling the religious on a forum help your cause much? Do you give time, money, speak up, and vote for your cause? Honest question. Since you no less use tactics which stoke emotions and passions, it must be important to you.[/quote]
…i must admit, i posted in this thread for shits and giggles, and if i had any shame i’d be ashamed of myself right now. I’m just a coldhearted atheist bastard who gets off on yanking eight and a half month old unborn babies from evil women’s wombs because i’m without morality and god…
…seriously though, abortion is legal in the US and in most of Europe. I have no case to champion. Inspite of your thoughts on the matter, it’s going to stay legal because even good christian households dread the thought of the daughter of the house getting pregnant out of wedlock from the hispanic kid down the block. Just like the war on drugs and terrorism, outlawing abortion changes nothing except for making you feel better about yourself…
Like I said, when we’re all coming at this honestly–abortion being the premeditated taking of an innocent human life–I’ll respond to questions posed to me. So, when you both own it for what it is, and are willing to defend it for what is, I’ll respond to such an expressed desire for honest conversation. Of course, I’ll respond to any denials of my “individual human life” claim, also. However, do me the favor of answering my previous questions to yourself, first. Then we’ll go back over them if you still disagree. Either way, we will proceed with this conversation from the nature of the act itself. There will be no ignoring my questions, only to demand that I hurry along to yours. We will start at the root of the problem, or not all.
…you have a problem with abortion, others don’t. I know your position, you ought to know mine by now. I have little to add to the discussion, so becoming involved [in such a juvenile way] was a mistake. I’m sorry…
Okay Sloth, human life. Your definition is based solely on biology and genetics. You left out the most important thing that differentiates human life from all other forms of life: higher brain function and the ability to reason. If science could somehow transplant the brain of a human into the body of a dog, for example, and in turn transplant the dog’s brain into the human body, which would be the “dog” and which would be the “human?” According to your line of reasoning, the human body with the dog’s brain would still be the human. I would disagree completely. I would have no problem saying that the dog with the human brain has now become the human. It is true that biologically it would still be a dog - it would have dog genes, and if it attempted to breed its offspring would be another dog with a dog’s brain. However, the dog now possesses the one thing that makes humans human - the ability to reason. This, IMO, is what defines a human.
In the case of a fetus, I once read a bioethicist who wrote that human life begins when brain waves in the cerebral cortex begin to register. This obviously falls short of the ability to reason but I think it is a good way of defining human life since the functioning of the cerebral cortex is a prerequisite to cognition. This happens in the womb. I forgot when it happens, but it certainly does not happen at the moment of conception.
So, Sloth, to answer your question as to whether abortion is the premeditated taking of an innocent human life, my answer is as follows:
Is it premeditated? Yes.
Is it a life? Yes, no question that a fetus is living.
Is it innocent? Yes.
Is it human? Depends on the age of the fetus. At conception, it is a potential human life, but I cannot say that a two-day old embryo is in every way equal to a human who demonstrates function of the cerebral cortex.
And this is where we differ. I do not define human life based solely on genetics and I think doing so misses the whole point about what makes us human. I once had an idea for a science fiction novel where humans could download not only their memories but their ability to think and reason into a supercomputer. Their bodies would die, but the computer could go on living forever. The “body” would be a machine, but there would be no doubt in my mind that the “soul” of the machine, for lack of a better word, would be human.
Amiright - This post also responds to your question as well.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Is it human? Depends on the age of the fetus…[/quote]
Ah, so close. You must claim it to be human. You’ve already acknowledged it is an organism (life), has it’s own genome (individual, distinguishable from both parents), but you’ve tripped up on the easiest part. Having accepted that it is an organism you must now accept that it is human, or you’ve trapped yourself into defending the idea that one organism sponataenously changes into another unique organism. A cat into a dog. A fish into a frog. A rabbit into a human. Of course the genome would tell it was no rabbit. The only answer is that the fetus is but one stage of development of the SAME individual human life/organism. The organism in question is human.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The woman was suffering from a life-threatening condition that likely would have caused her death if she hadn’t had the abortion at St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center.[/quote]
Seriously, to the two posters who replied, what the fuck is wrong with you?[/quote]
This X2