[quote]tuffloud wrote:
There should be thousands of these skeletons. Where are they?[/quote]
How about a subscription to the weekly Science News? You can keep up with all the latest finds.
But I thought you guys didn’t believe in fossils?
[quote]flea333 wrote:
Good post brother man! This is not a battle of religion, but a battle of truth verse falsity! Neither side can claim to KNOW the ultimate truth, only believe it. Remember you have to apply faith at some point in time, either nothingness just turned into something, or God, existing outside our time/space universe, way more complicated creature than we can understand, willed our existence into being. Either way it sounds absurd to us!
But here’s something for evolutionists to think about. Figure out how many times it takes to shuffle a deck of 52 cards so that you hit the same exact order of cards twice. It would take 2.55765396 x 10^60 YEARS if you reshuffled the card deck every ONE SECOND. And that is having a controlled machine shuffle these cards every second, that doesn’t even exist. Now knowing that DNA is a perfect arrangement of molecules in strands of millions of amino acids, figure out how long it will take for that to randomly come together. That my friend, is eternity.
When is the last time a tornado spun through a junk yard and created a perfectly operating 747? Think it could happen given millions of years? If a tornado hit the same junk yard constantly? You think those little rivets could perfectly align in all the right places, the wires would fit together and circuit boards would be created? Well I hope you are reasonable to think that is absurd. Now have you ever taken a biology class and discovered how systematically perfect the human body operates? I do not see how anybody who takes a biology class can second guess there was some intelligent being behind the process.
Since when has randomness caused order? Or disorder cause unity?
My friend, intelligent design is the only intelligent answer. Don’t believe in the Bible, don’t be a Christian, I don’t care, but please, be rational and accept intelligent design.[/quote]
This post misses the point completely. Evolution is not a truly “random” process, evolution works by ordered mechanisms (natural selection, genetic drift) that work by certain rules. Evolution may not be guided by a "higher intelligence’, and it may be influenced by random events (i.e. mutations), but it is certainly not a random process, and the tornado in a junkyard analogy is not applicable.
“Intelligent design theory” is fringe science, nothing more. What recent work has been done lately to advance the theory of “intelligent design?”. Nothing. Coherent scientific theories constantly advance and change, and nothing of this sort has happened with “intelligent design theory”, and it certainly isn’t accepted or even discussed much by the mainstream scientific community.
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Species (by the scientific definition at least) HAVE been observed to separate into two different species.
Here is the definition of species:
NOUN:
pl. species
Biology
A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding. See Table at taxonomy.
An organism belonging to such a category, represented in binomial nomenclature by an uncapitalized Latin adjective or noun following a capitalized genus name, as in Ananas comosus, the pineapple, and Equus caballus, the horse.
Logic A class of individuals or objects grouped by virtue of their common attributes and assigned a common name; a division subordinate to a genus.
Now give me an in depth example of a species that has seperated into two seperate species and back it up with facts. Give me some facts, no hypothesis.
[/quote]
There are actually many examples of speciation that have been observed. Click this link for several of them.
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
Man was created perfectly.
[/quote]
If man was created perfectly, then he would not have disobeyed God, free will included.
This speaks volumes about creationism. The fact that KNOWLEDGE is equated with evil says that God (or at least the church) wanted man to be ignorant, and some creationists are more than happy to oblige.
An ignorant king is merely a puppet.
God could have easily prevented the “tragedy” of the eating of the fruit, yet he did not. Sounds like a set up to me.
You ask for proof that the Bible is wrong? Okay, men aren’t missing a rib, and snakes don’t eat dust.
“And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.”
[quote]flea333 wrote:
Now have you ever taken a biology class and discovered how systematically perfect the human body operates? I do not see how anybody who takes a biology class can second guess there was some intelligent being behind the process.
[/quote]
How can you say that the human body operates “systematically perfect?” There are so many things that go bad in a human body with age that it is amazing. I doubt taht an engineer would design something as inefficient as a human body, much less a “perfect” creator.
[quote]juerocalvo wrote:
There are actually many examples of speciation that have been observed. Click this link for several of them.
[/quote]
There are also many kinds of dogs, many kinds of cats, many kinds of primates, many kinds of humans! This does not in any way mean that human beings evolved from primates. Period. Why are there black people, white people, asian people, big people, tall people, small people?
Yet no person here can answer my question:
WHERE IS THE “MISSING LINK”?
[quote]flea333 wrote:
But here’s something for evolutionists to think about. Figure out how many times it takes to shuffle a deck of 52 cards so that you hit the same exact order of cards twice. It would take 2.55765396 x 10^60 YEARS if you reshuffled the card deck every ONE SECOND. And that is having a controlled machine shuffle these cards every second, that doesn’t even exist. Now knowing that DNA is a perfect arrangement of molecules in strands of millions of amino acids, figure out how long it will take for that to randomly come together. That my friend, is eternity.
[/quote]
You assume that all possibilities are equally likely, and you also assume that all molecules are equally unstable and they spontaneously decay if not in the “final” configuration. You’re also changing the question. You’re speaking of abiogenesis, not evolution.
Besides, just because there is a small chance of something happening, does not make it impossible in any way.
[quote] Now have you ever taken a biology class and discovered how systematically perfect the human body operates? I do not see how anybody who takes a biology class can second guess there was some intelligent being behind the process.
[/quote]
Back problems
Cancer vs. aging choice
Varicose veins
The drop in BP when one stands up
The inability of nerve cells to regenerate
The inability of humans to regrow lost limbs
Our desire for higher calorie foods than we need, leading to obesity and related problems
Putting the vagina so close to the asshole
Poor self-diagnostic system
Yeah, not so perfect or intelligent.
Okay, did Satan create us? He’s intelligent…
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
WHERE IS THE “MISSING LINK”?
[/quote]
In the ground, duh.
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
tuffloud wrote:
There should be thousands of these skeletons. Where are they?
How about a subscription the the weekly Science News? You can keep up with all the latest finds.
But I thought you guys didn’t believe in fossils?[/quote]
There have been “missing links” found? Where? Please tell me, I would love to know!
Once again, an evolutionist putting words into my mouth. When did I say that I “didn’t believe in fossils”? Your lack of fossils is your burden of proof. Do you know why? Because there are no fossils that prove that human beings have evolved from primates.
You evolutionists just keep dodging the question over and over and over again -
WHERE IS THE “MISSING LINK”?
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
ramses,
You just can’t answer the question can you?
[/quote]
I can answer all your questions, but I won’t --as I said on my first post-- because it would be a waste of time. I can point you to science popularization books from Asimov, Sagan, Dawkins, Gould; but it would be useless because they are not reprints of the book of genesis from the cristian bible (the cristian bible is not the only one with a genesis myth). I can point you to important published research, but it would be useless for the same reason.
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
Where is the evidence that human beings have evolved from primates? Where is your “missing link”? There should be thousands of these skeletons. Where are they?[/quote]
Again you prove my point. No amount of evidence will ever be enough for a creationist. By the time we have thousands of skeletons, creationists will have a new excuse. By the way, digging up skeletons is not that important anymore, thanks to Molecular Biology and our current Mitochondrial DNA knowledge. Guess what? Creationists already have a long list of misconceptions and flat out lies about mitochondrial DNA.
If you really want to understand and learn evolution, you have to REALLY study it, instead of reading books about the nonexistent “evolution controversy”.
This goes out to all those who want to put creationism and evolution on equal intellectual footing. Since “creation science” seems more focused on attempts to discredit evolution, I would like to ask:
1.) What is the creationist explanation of the origins of life and the variety of species on earth?
2.) What are some specific mechanisms that caused this event or series of events to occur?
3.) What specific evidence is there that supports this explanation?
4.) Is this explanation observable? Can the mechanisms of “creation” be reproduced in an experiment, or can they be observed to occur in nature?
4.) Is this theory falsifiable? Could your theory be disproven?
Until creationists can put together a coherent scientific theory creationism should retain it’s pseudoscience status and be kept out of school classrooms.
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
flea333 wrote:
Since when has randomness caused order? Or disorder cause unity?
Happens all the time. Check out the early work on “self organizing systems”.[/quote]
LOL. My master’s thesis is in its core about self organization, about order emerging from randomness! You people made my day!
But that is not all, my following work will hopefully be about systems where unity (synch) results from an initial chaotic (disorderly) state.
Woohoo!
[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
Back problems
Cancer vs. aging choice
Varicose veins
The drop in BP when one stands up
The inability of nerve cells to regenerate
The inability of humans to regrow lost limbs
Our desire for higher calorie foods than we need, leading to obesity and related problems
Putting the vagina so close to the asshole
Poor self-diagnostic system
Yeah, not so perfect or intelligent.
[/quote]
The Bible unequivocally asserts that mankind is a unique and special creation of God, made in his image simultaneously with the animal and plant kingdom. The fact that there were numerous groups of human beings with significant anatomical variation in their skeletal structure is in complete agreement with the Biblical creation view.
The fact that we have declined structurally is an unexpected but fascinating discovery that is in complete harmony with the creation view of mankind. When mankind was created our stock was perfect from a genetic point of view. After all, on the day God made us He said, “it was very good.” However, because of the fall of man and the dramatic post-flood environmental changes we have accumulated thousands of years of “informational errors” in our gene pool. The result is that we possess more diseased, are more frail, we are smaller in size and we die at a much younger age. All of this is the expected result of genetic decay.
It is also likely that the first men and women used their entire brains, not a mere 15 percent like us. Evolutionary theory certainly cannot explain why a brain evolved that is only 10-15 percent functional.
Despite our predicament we are indeed fearfully and wonderfully made!
[quote]juerocalvo wrote:
This goes out to all those who want to put creationism and evolution on equal intellectual footing. Since “creation science” seems more focused on attempts to discredit evolution, I would like to ask:
1.) What is the creationist explanation of the origins of life and the variety of species on earth?
2.) What are some specific mechanisms that caused this event or series of events to occur?
3.) What specific evidence is there that supports this explanation?
4.) Is this explanation observable? Can the mechanisms of “creation” be reproduced in an experiment, or can they be observed to occur in nature?
4.) Is this theory falsifiable? Could your theory be disproven?
Until creationists can put together a coherent scientific theory creationism should retain it’s pseudoscience status and be kept out of school classrooms.[/quote]
I have faith in God and the Bible. If the Bible itself isn’t proof enough for you, I don’t know what is.
You on the other hand have faith in your empty religion and it is called “evolution”. You are passionate in your faith in evolution as I am passionate of my faith in God and His word.
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
There have been “missing links” found? Where? Please tell me, I would love to know!
Once again, an evolutionist putting words into my mouth. When did I say that I “didn’t believe in fossils”? Your lack of fossils is your burden of proof. Do you know why? Because there are no fossils that prove that human beings have evolved from primates.
You evolutionists just keep dodging the question over and over and over again -
WHERE IS THE “MISSING LINK”?
[/quote]
If it had been found, it wouldn’t be called the MISSING link, now would it?
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
juerocalvo wrote:
There are actually many examples of speciation that have been observed. Click this link for several of them.
There are also many kinds of dogs, many kinds of cats, many kinds of primates, many kinds of humans! This does not in any way mean that human beings evolved from primates. Period. Why are there black people, white people, asian people, big people, tall people, small people?
Yet no person here can answer my question:
WHERE IS THE “MISSING LINK”?
[/quote]
Did you read the link? You asked for any evidence of the formation of new species. There were a whole bunch of them there, and all of those fit the scientific definition of species.
If you want some fossil evidence for human evolution look here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html#tchadensis
Here is an overview of basic hominid species that goes thorugh the evolutionary timeline:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html
Here is a listing of transitional fossils in general (covering all types of vertebrate animals)
You continue to claim that there is no evidence for evolution, but even a cursory examination (those pages are rather lengthy) you will see that evidence for evolution is abundant.
[quote]Carmack/Blaze wrote:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html[/quote]
These skulls prove absolutely nothing!
Like I have said. Why are there billions of human beings in all shapes and sizes?
Do you suppose that the skeletons of Shaquille Oneill and Danny DeVito are going to be similar? Do you think the shape of their skulls are the same? No!
Does this mean that Danny DeVito is a primate and Shaquille Oneill is the “evolved” human being?
Nope, they are both human beings extremely different from one another.
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
The fact that we have declined structurally is an unexpected but fascinating discovery that is in complete harmony with the creation view of mankind. When mankind was created our stock was perfect from a genetic point of view. After all, on the day God made us He said, “it was very good.” However, because of the fall of man and the dramatic post-flood environmental changes we have accumulated thousands of years of “informational errors” in our gene pool. The result is that we possess more diseased, are more frail, we are smaller in size and we die at a much younger age. All of this is the expected result of genetic decay.
[/quote]
Then the creator did not make a very good error checking system for our DNA. Bad design. I reject the “caused by the fall of man” arguement, since the fall was preventable, yet was not. Set up.
[quote]It is also likely that the first men and women used their entire brains, not a mere 15 percent like us. Evolutionary theory certainly cannot explain why a brain evolved that is only 10-15 percent functional.
[/quote]
That is an urban legend. If all we needed was 10-15% of our brain, Schaivo would have been up and about.
[quote]tuffloud wrote:
I have faith in God and the Bible. If the Bible itself isn’t proof enough for you, I don’t know what is.
[/quote]
So are you saying that your theory is that the creation anof life occurred EXACTLY as stated in the bible? For starters. which version of the bible are we going to literally interpret?
[quote]
You on the other hand have faith in your empty religion and it is called “evolution”. You are passionate in your faith in evolution as I am passionate of my faith in God and His word.[/quote]
Evolution is not a religion, and I accept evolution not out of faith because of the overwhelming evidence supporting it. What precludes somebody from being a christian and accepting evolution? I don’t think that John Paul II was an atheist…