Evolution vs. Creation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
123

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Evolutionists continue to have their hypothesis of marco-evolution tested and proven false, but instead of revising the basic hypothesis of marco-evolution they continue on with that same hypothesis and just come up with another theory.

I’m totally in the dark what it is you’re referring to about evolution having been proved false. As for macro evolution, what is that? Everything except bacteria? Don’t make me laugh.
[/quote]

I’m sure most of this forum is also in the dark about this, and yet they still believe in their god of evolution, why? Must have a lot of faith.

Let me explain.

The evolution Hypothesis = Man evolved from less complex organisms staring with single cell organisms.

Evolution theory = If man evolved from less complex organisms there would be some evidence of this process demonstrated by seeing each species in the chain from bottom to top showing a progression of less to more complex organisms.

Evolution theory proven false = There is no such evidence in nature or the fusel record of links between species (intermediate species, i.e “missing link”). All evidence demonstrates fully formed organisms.

The scientific method then dictates that since the theory that supports the hypothesis or assumption of evolution has been shown to be without evidence, the hypothesis that man evolved from less complex organisms must be revised.

And has this taken place? No!
THIS has never occurred and evolutionists just continue to march along following an assumption that has been proven wrong or without merit. If they were truly scientific they would not hold to a false hypothesis. But since they do, the “science” behind evolution is no more scientific or proven than creation. People just think it is more credible because it is taught in schools.

Macro-evolution = organisms changing from one species to another over time

Micro-evolution = changes (adaptations) within species over time

So here are the facts; there is plenty of scientific proof in nature and the fusel record of Micro-evolution, but there is NO eveidence for macro-evolution.

I’m sorry, I thought we were talking about science? All of what you have just stated is conjecture and assumption that is closer to reasons for religous faith than science.

Nice theory, but it lacks evidence in nature or the fusel record.

The macro-evolution hypothesis has not been validated either, and yet they continue with that idea, why?

I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t include a creative force in their hypothesis. I’m just saying they have no more evidence to support their theory than creationists do.

So stop saying that evolusion is more scientific than creation, because it currently is not. They are both the same. You just have more FAITH in one theory over the other. THAT my friend is religion!

124

[quote]Xvim wrote:
tuffloud wrote:
You have to ask yourself though:

Why does it say “In God we trust” on all our currency?

Why do we as Americans say “one nation, under God” in our pledge of alligence?

Because during the height of the Cold War fearful Americans needed some way to distinguish themselves from the ‘godless’ communists over thar in the Soviet Union. Both of those were added in an effort to rally the ‘troops’ against the enemy.

Evolution makes no claims about why evolution happens, merely that it does happen. Creationism and Evolution are not mutually exclusive unless you’re blinded by dogma. Teaching creationism as part of philosophy class or as part of some other social science is perfectly appropriate, teaching it in a science class is foolishness.
[/quote]

I think it is appropriate to teach the creationistic view in a science class. All you would have to do is explain the controversy. The ways parts of the bible are written are symbolic. With some imagination you can put the evolutional theory next to the creation theory and they resemble each other. I would also include any other possible explanation. That is what education is about.
I think it is more of a political statement to discredit either.

125

[quote]ConanSpeaks wrote:
I was in Russia last month and I was asking my tour guide, Igor, what it was like when the Soviet Union collapsed. He told me that people were very concerned because the state had always provided everything for them. After about a month though, people started to get cable TV from America. Igor said “suddenly everyone realize that we had been duped all these years. Russia did not have the best houses, cars, clothing, etc.” When people saw how others in the world lived their eyes were opened.

The point of my little story is that there are an awful lot of intelligent people on this thread who have not taken a fair and objective look at both sides of this argument. It seems that when someone states they are a creationist they are first called stupid, mindless, and brainwashed, then they are told that there is no God.

Certianly there must be a more intelligent way to prove your belief in evolution than simply denying the existance of God and claiming that having faith means having no mind of your own. Do the evolutionists not put faith in the scholars who claim to have solved the riddle of how life came to be? You did not do the research on the fossil record, you did not publish the research papers, you did nothing to validate the authenticity of the information presented to you. You merely believe it. You have faith that it is correct.

What is worse is that you refuse to accept information from the other side of the argument. Have you read any of the papers published by creationists? Wouldn’t looking at both sides of an argument provide a more objective viewpoint?

Here is an excerpt from a paper by Dr. John Ankerbery and Dr. John Weldon.

"…Virtually all the fundamentals of the orthodox evolutionary faith have show themselves to be either of extremely doubtful validity or simply contrary to fact… So basic are these erroneous (evolutionary) assumptions thta the whole theory is now largely maintained in spite of rather than because of the evidence… As a consequence, for the great majority of students and for that large ill-defined group, ‘the public,’ it has ceased to be a subject of debate. Because it is both incapable of proof and yet may not be questioned, it is virtually untouched by data which challenge it in any way. It has become in the strictest sense irrational… Information or concept which challenge the theory are almost never given a fair hearing…

In fact… 'Evolutionary philosophy has indeed become a state of mind, one might say a kind of mental prison rather than a scientific attitude…

If evolutionary theory was scientific, it should have been abondoned long ago. But because it is more philosophy than science, it is not susceptible to the self-correcting mechanisms that govern all other branches of scientific enquiry."

They echo what I stated earlier in this thread. Creationists in this thread are being called “brainwashed” because they have faith. But I say that the evolutionists are no less dogmatic than we are.

Both sides of this argument have valid points. Further both sides of this argument have put their faith in men who have written books or papers. How is faith in a God you claim you don’t know so different than putting faith in some evolutionary schorlar you don’t know?

Thare a great deal of strong opinions on this thread, but who really is qualified to state authoratatively that they have researched the issue of evolution thoroughly from both sides?

I can honestly tell you that before I began studying the Bible I believed very strongly in evolution. Mostly because it was indoctrinated in me in every grade school, high school, and college science course I had. Like my Russian friend Igor, it was all I had ever known. When I began to study the Bible, evolution was one of my biggest sticking points. I just couldn’t accept creationism. So I went to the library, went online, and I started to look at both sides of the argument.

When I really started looking into the issue I was shocked at how truly incomplete the theory of evolution is. I probably spent 9 months reading up on it before I decided that the theory of evolution raises far more questions than it answers.

Again, a personal decision but at least I can say I looked at the issue from both sides. Which is more than I can say for some of the ill-bred individuals who have chosen to grace this thread with insults rather than intelligent contributions.

[/quote]

Good post

126

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
For all of the god fanatics out there…

If god existed and was this almighty being why would he allow innocent people such as children live life of torment and pain? Why would he let children get molested. Why would he let random murder occur?

And dont give me that bullshit about “free will” and the “original” sin. If god is so shallow that he cannot differentiate between the “original sinners” and innocent and helpless children then he needs to fucking reevaluate his system because its fucked up.[/quote]

You sound more like you are bitter with God rather than you not believing in Him.

You ask the most frequently asked questions concerning God. If God is loving, why do evil people flourish and innocent people perish? Why does God not step in to help, deliver, and save? Millions of people died in World War II. Many innocent people are still dying all around the world today in war and in peace. Babies are born impaired. Children become crippled. Adults become paralyzed. Old people become invalids. There is senseless killing, lying, cheating, stealing, and robbing between and within nations and ethnic groups, in “bad neighborhoods” and “good neighborhoods,” and in families.

Who are the victims? Mostly the innocent–the children, the aged, and the nice people. Where is God? Is He not a loving God? Did He not create man? Why does He not help? Why does He let it happen? Isn’t He in control? We need to go back to the beginning to see why things are the way they are and if there is a solution to this problem that all humanity faces.

The Battle of Two Kingdoms

The Bible tells us that before man was created, Lucifer, the archangel who was the ruler over the earth, had rebelled against God and become God’s enemy, Satan. The earth had become the kingdom of Satan. Then there was a struggle between the two kingdoms–God’s and Satan’s.

Man is to Express God and Rule for God

Man was made by God in His image to express God and rule for God. To express God is to love as God loves, be righteous as God is righteous, and so on. God has many divine attributes, and man was created with the corresponding human virtues. Man is supposed to live a life that expresses God’s divine attributes through his human virtues. To rule for God is to be God’s deputy authority, king of the earth, to overthrow and replace Satan and to bring in God’s kingdom of love and righteousness.

Man was created perfectly. He would not get sick or die. God provided everything that man would need to live, to express God, and to rule for God. For man’s physical existence, God gave man air, water, food, and sunshine. To make the environment pleasant for man, God made trees, flowers, and grass. To make the earth a lively place, God made the animals. For man to fulfill his function–expressing God and ruling for God–God made a spirit within man and set man before the tree of life. The tree of life signifies God becoming life to man. If man would take God into his spirit by eating the tree of life, man would have God as life and be able to express God and to rule for God.

The Greatest Tragedy of the Universe

Although God’s intention would have been fulfilled if man ate from the tree of life, God still allowed man to choose between Him and Satan–signified by the tree of knowledge. Satan came in disguise, in trickery, and deceived man by making the tree of knowledge seem very pleasant. Man chose the tree of knowledge. Instead of God’s life, man received the satanic life into himself, resulting in sin, evil, and death.

The satanic life has been growing in man for the last six thousand years. Because man took in Satan’s life, man is under the control of the satanic nature inwardly as well as the authority of Satan outwardly. The Bible calls Satan “the god of this age.” Man is blinded by him. Man is lying in the hand of this evil one and is unconscious of what the evil one is doing to and in him. Satan’s desire is to ruin and kill man. The real and living God created man, but the god of this age got into man.

The universal tragedy is that the very man who was to be king living in God’s kingdom has become a slave dying in Satan’s kingdom. Satan is destroying the man God created, so that the condition today is not God’s original intention.

God’s Way of Saving Man from Suffering

God loved man and still wanted to save man from suffering back to Himself. However, even He had to acknowledge the authority which had been set up. It would have been unrighteous for God to remove this deputy authority without the proper procedure. Also, without the preparation of a proper replacement, there would be a big chaos. With this in view, He took some definite steps to bring about the defeat of Satan and to bring in His own kingdom.

First, He came to earth as a man named Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. He as a man set up a pattern for us, showing us how man may love one another and be righteous by God’s life. Although He acknowledged the authority of Satan over the earth and was subject to his ruling outwardly, He did not succumb to Satan’s temptations. He was the one-man kingdom of God. Satan had nothing in Him. Jesus did not have the satanic nature; therefore He was inwardly free from the tyranny of Satan. Yet He did not as a single man take back the earth. This job requires many of us to join Him.

For this He died to pay a ransom for all mankind in order to redeem them from God’s righteous judgment of sin and resurrected to be man’s life. Now the way has been reopened for man to take God in as life and express and rule for God, to become just like Him and together to defeat His enemy and bring in His kingdom.

All this happened two thousand years ago, yet most people have not heard about or received this good news. The world is still in chaos because so many are under Satan’s deception and control to resist God and live by the sinful nature.

The Way to Stop All Suffering

If you want to get out of this chaos, and save the world from Satan’s kingdom, you need to save yourself first by receiving God into you through calling on His name. Then He will start the process of salvation inside of you. At the same time, you need to spread the good news abroad to your acquaintances. When enough people on earth are filled up with the God of love and righteousness, the kingdom of God will be brought in. People will be living in peace, loving one another. There will be no more robbing nor senseless killing. All forms of evil will be removed from the earth. Would you like to see this in your lifetime? What should you do?

You may turn from Satan’s kingdom of darkness to God’s kingdom of light, from Satan’s authority of death to God’s authority of life. Say to God, “Lord Jesus, come into me. Deliver me from Satan’s kingdom into Your kingdom. Forgive me of all that I did under the tyranny of Satan. Save me now.” You will become a part of what God is doing in man to end all the suffering in the world and to bring His kingdom to the earth.

By the way, a lot of what evolutionists try to use against creationists is the idea that the Bible is all just a bunch of nonsense. They ask “how could something so old stay accurate”. My question for them is “have you even read the Bible”. There are many paralles in the Bible of things that have happened throughout history. Even today things are happening that the Bible contains. You have to “seek and you shall find”.

Also, people try to talk about how there are so many different variations of Christianity. Yes there are, but keep in mind that just because a church that decides to do something that has nothing to do with what the Bible teaches, doesn’t make them right. People should listen to the Bible, only the Bible. Just because a man (preacher, Pope, priest) says something, does not make them undeniably wrong. They are men, not God. The Bible has the answers, not them.

I would appreciate it if people would stop telling me how the Bible is wrong and actually prove it. Give me evidence that it’s wrong. Why are you saying that?

127

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Tank53 wrote:
If we go from your view on life, people are nothing more than a random collision of molecules that just happened to turn into something. People would just be an accident. A random event of life.

Thats EXACTLY my point. We are nothing but chance i.e. “random collision” that just happened to work out.

Wouldnt the fact that every living thing is made up of the same 4 neucleotides spark a “hmmmm” from the religious community?[/quote]

This is problably because we were all created to live in the confines of this planet. Why WOULD everything be completely different?

128

[quote]ramses wrote:
Don’t waste your time with creationists.

All their claims are easily shown wrong, but they won’t listen.
[/quote]

Which claims? This sounds like you are describing an atheist.

Which “proof” have you given me? You have given me nothing more than ideas. I never said “fossils are rocks made by the cristian god to test your faith in him”. What in the world are you talking about?

No, it’s impossible to reason with an atheist. I have looked at both sides and was raised in the school systems to believe in evolution. I came to my conclusion out of logic.

You definetly won’t be “stepping in” on my kids. Also, explain to me how evolution is real. Not how a species can adapt to its own enviornment, but how they can change from one species to another. The burden of “proof” is on you.

129

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
Also, explain to me how evolution is real. Not how a species can adapt to its own enviornment, but how they can change from one species to another. The burden of “proof” is on you.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I mean. I don’t have to prove anything because it has already been done by many others, and the evidence is there for anyone to see (assuming they want to see).

No amount of detail and evidence will ever satisfy a creationist. No proof will ever be good enough for a creationist. Science can’t just compete with magical thinking.

On a side note, not all people supporting evolution are atheist. The catholic church accepts evolution, and many other religions. But I guess that is irrelevant, because for most creationists the catholic church is evil just like all other pagan religions.

130

How about God used evolution as a creation process? Creationists seem to bury their head in the Bible yet they don’t look at the actual creation.

In this thread I see lots of “Micro vs. Macro evolution”.

Why do you accept the mechanisms that give micro evolution and not the same mechanisms that give macroevolution?

131

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
I never said “fossils are rocks made by the cristian god to test your faith in him”. What in the world are you talking about?[/quote]

I don’t know if you did. I just mention that because I have seen important creationists explaining fossils with that argument. Other creationists say that fossils are the remains of failed creation experiments (How can creationists say that? Wasn’t the cristian god supposed to be perfect?).

Again, science can’t beat magical thinking. That is why I’m not debating any point presented in this thread (even if they are not as crazy as the previous fossil explanation).

132

[quote]ramses wrote:
This is exactly what I mean. I don’t have to prove anything because it has already been done by many others, and the evidence is there for anyone to see (assuming they want to see).
[/quote]

Where has anyone proven that a human being has “evolved” from a primate or lesser form? Where? Where are all of these others that have proven this?

Where is all of this detail and evidence you speak of? Why is it so hard for you to give me proof yet you speak of it as if it is pouring out of your mouth?

[quote]
On a side note, not all people supporting evolution are atheist. The catholic church accepts evolution, and many other religions. But I guess that is irrelevant, because for most creationists the catholic church is evil just like all other pagan religions.[/quote]

I am not a Catholic. Just what exactly is it that they accept? Also, why are you putting words into my mouth? Pagan religions? Did I mention any of that?

133

Good post brother man! This is not a battle of religion, but a battle of truth verse falsity! Neither side can claim to KNOW the ultimate truth, only believe it. Remember you have to apply faith at some point in time, either nothingness just turned into something, or God, existing outside our time/space universe, way more complicated creature than we can understand, willed our existence into being. Either way it sounds absurd to us!

But here’s something for evolutionists to think about. Figure out how many times it takes to shuffle a deck of 52 cards so that you hit the same exact order of cards twice. It would take 2.55765396 x 10^60 YEARS if you reshuffled the card deck every ONE SECOND. And that is having a controlled machine shuffle these cards every second, that doesn’t even exist. Now knowing that DNA is a perfect arrangement of molecules in strands of millions of amino acids, figure out how long it will take for that to randomly come together. That my friend, is eternity.

When is the last time a tornado spun through a junk yard and created a perfectly operating 747? Think it could happen given millions of years? If a tornado hit the same junk yard constantly? You think those little rivets could perfectly align in all the right places, the wires would fit together and circuit boards would be created? Well I hope you are reasonable to think that is absurd. Now have you ever taken a biology class and discovered how systematically perfect the human body operates? I do not see how anybody who takes a biology class can second guess there was some intelligent being behind the process.

Since when has randomness caused order? Or disorder cause unity?

My friend, intelligent design is the only intelligent answer. Don’t believe in the Bible, don’t be a Christian, I don’t care, but please, be rational and accept intelligent design.

134

[quote]ramses wrote:
Other creationists say that fossils are the remains of failed creation experiments (How can creationists say that? Wasn’t the cristian god supposed to be perfect?).)[/quote]

I have never heard nor read that from any person who follows the Bible. You need to stop categorizing “religious people” into one category. The Bible has the answers. Not these “religious people” you keep refering to. Also, you using the term “cristian god” shows in itself that you are NOT willing to even hear the side of the Bible. I have studied both sides and like I said, I was raised into believing that we evolved from primates. I have searched for the answers. Have you done the same?

[quote]
Again, science can’t beat magical thinking. That is why I’m not debating any point presented in this thread (even if they are not as crazy as the previous fossil explanation).[/quote]

Again, primates turning into human beings (magic) can’t beat the Bible and God’s Creation.

135

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
Where has anyone proven that a human being has “evolved” from a primate or lesser form? Where? Where are all of these others that have proven this?

Where is all of this detail and evidence you speak of? Why is it so hard for you to give me proof yet you speak of it as if it is pouring out of your mouth?
[/quote]

Exactly. You don’t know where it is. When people show evidence to a creationist, they ignore it or come up with a crazy argument to dismiss it.

There is more than a century of published research supporting evolution. If you have not been able to find yourself a path to that knowledge base, there is nothing I can do to help.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
I am not a Catholic. Just what exactly is it that they accept? Also, why are you putting words into my mouth? Pagan religions? Did I mention any of that?
[/quote]

Catholics fully accept evolution. Long story short: evolution as science explains it, is just another creation of the cristian god.

As for words in your mouth, all I’m doing is quoting common creationist ideas.

136

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
ramses wrote:
Other creationists say that fossils are the remains of failed creation experiments (How can creationists say that? Wasn’t the cristian god supposed to be perfect?).)

I have never heard nor read that from any person who follows the Bible. You need to stop categorizing “religious people” into one category.
[/quote]

Read again. I’m talking about creationists. I’m saying that those arguments are exposed by important creationists. Furthermore, those arguments are also endorsed by creationist organizations. Haven’t you ever seen a creationist “scientist” giving a speech in a university or talking on the news?

137

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Xvim wrote:
Teaching creationism as part of philosophy class or as part of some other social science is perfectly appropriate, teaching it in a science class is foolishness.

There ya go. Thanks Xvim, that pretty much summed it up nicely.

[/quote]

Agreed 100%. My degree is in Biology. My license requires that I have certain classes in biology, chemistry et al. Biology teachers are not trained to teach philosophy or religion. And I’ve heard probably 5 MAJOR permutations of creationism/intelligent design. Which one should be taught at the expense of the other?

NO ONE who began from an atheistic/objective perspective would arrive at the biblical model of creation independently just by observing creation. Yes, you can justify about anything in the bible if you are creative enough, but it is not “self evident.”

Genesis is a poem. It may be “truth” but if it is fact, then we have no capacity for informed reason whatsoever.

138

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
So stop saying that evolusion is more scientific than creation, because it currently is not. They are both the same. You just have more FAITH in one theory over the other. THAT my friend is religion!

[/quote]

You can’t even spell “fossil”, why should I bandy conclusions with you? I don’t care who told you this garbage, they basically lied. There is beaucoup evidence. Perhaps you hadn’t yet read my later post.

139

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think it is appropriate to teach the creationistic view in a science class. All you would have to do is explain the controversy. The ways parts of the bible are written are symbolic. With some imagination you can put the evolutional theory next to the creation theory and they resemble each other. I would also include any other possible explanation. That is what education is about.
I think it is more of a political statement to discredit either.

[/quote]

You can stop worrying. Creationism, aka Intelligent Design is already discredited. No, it doesn’t belong in science class. It doesn’t even belong in school, short of civics class and American History maybe. Or Sunday school. What’s the matter with treating it in Sunday school?

This subject of how do living things work is not something for ‘fair and balanced’. Science is the result of a process of investigation. It’s not something anyone gets to vote on.

140

ramses,

You just can’t answer the question can you? Where is the evidence that human beings have evolved from primates? Where is your “missing link”? There should be thousands of these skeletons. Where are they?

141

flea333,

Very nice post! Can all of the opposing side please read his post and think about it?

142

[quote]flea333 wrote:
Since when has randomness caused order? Or disorder cause unity? [/quote]

Happens all the time. Check out the early work on “self organizing systems”.