Evolution vs. Creation

5.0 Observed Instances of Speciation
The following are several examples of observations of speciation.

5.1 Speciations Involving Polyploidy, Hybridization or Hybridization Followed by Polyploidization.

5.1.1 Plants
(See also the discussion in de Wet 1971).

5.1.1.1 Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas)
While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. O. lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with O. lamarckiana. He named this new species O. gigas.

5.1.1.2 Kew Primrose (Primula kewensis)
Digby (1912) crossed the primrose species Primula verticillata and P. floribunda to produce a sterile hybrid. Polyploidization occurred in a few of these plants to produce fertile offspring. The new species was named P. kewensis. Newton and Pellew (1929) note that spontaneous hybrids of P. verticillata and P. floribunda set tetraploid seed on at least three occasions. These happened in 1905, 1923 and 1926.

5.1.1.3 Tragopogon
Owenby (1950) demonstrated that two species in this genus were produced by polyploidization from hybrids. He showed that Tragopogon miscellus found in a colony in Moscow, Idaho was produced by hybridization of T. dubius and T. pratensis. He also showed that T. mirus found in a colony near Pullman, Washington was produced by hybridization of T. dubius and T. porrifolius. Evidence from chloroplast DNA suggests that T. mirus has originated independently by hybridization in eastern Washington and western Idaho at least three times (Soltis and Soltis 1989). The same study also shows multiple origins for T. micellus.

5.1.1.4 Raphanobrassica
The Russian cytologist Karpchenko (1927, 1928) crossed the radish, Raphanus sativus, with the cabbage, Brassica oleracea. Despite the fact that the plants were in different genera, he got a sterile hybrid. Some unreduced gametes were formed in the hybrids. This allowed for the production of seed. Plants grown from the seeds were interfertile with each other. They were not interfertile with either parental species. Unfortunately the new plant (genus Raphanobrassica) had the foliage of a radish and the root of a cabbage.

5.1.1.5 Hemp Nettle (Galeopsis tetrahit)
A species of hemp nettle, Galeopsis tetrahit, was hypothesized to be the result of a natural hybridization of two other species, G. pubescens and G. speciosa (Muntzing 1932). The two species were crossed. The hybrids matched G. tetrahit in both visible features and chromosome morphology.

5.1.1.6 Madia citrigracilis
Along similar lines, Clausen et al. (1945) hypothesized that Madia citrigracilis was a hexaploid hybrid of M. gracilis and M. citriodora As evidence they noted that the species have gametic chromosome numbers of n = 24, 16 and 8 respectively. Crossing M. gracilis and M. citriodora resulted in a highly sterile triploid with n = 24. The chromosomes formed almost no bivalents during meiosis. Artificially doubling the chromosome number using colchecine produced a hexaploid hybrid which closely resembled M. citrigracilis and was fertile.

5.1.1.7 Brassica
Frandsen (1943, 1947) was able to do this same sort of recreation of species in the genus Brassica (cabbage, etc.). His experiments showed that B. carinata (n = 17) may be recreated by hybridizing B. nigra (n = 8) and B. oleracea, B. juncea (n = 18) may be recreated by hybridizing B. nigra and B. campestris (n = 10), and B. napus (n = 19) may be recreated by hybridizing B. oleracea and B. campestris.

5.1.1.8 Maidenhair Fern (Adiantum pedatum)
Rabe and Haufler (1992) found a naturally occurring diploid sporophyte of maidenhair fern which produced unreduced (2N) spores. These spores resulted from a failure of the paired chromosomes to dissociate during the first division of meiosis. The spores germinated normally and grew into diploid gametophytes. These did not appear to produce antheridia. Nonetheless, a subsequent generation of tetraploid sporophytes was produced. When grown in the lab, the tetraploid sporophytes appear to be less vigorous than the normal diploid sporophytes. The 4N individuals were found near Baldwin City, Kansas.

5.1.1.9 Woodsia Fern (Woodsia abbeae)
Woodsia abbeae was described as a hybrid of W. cathcariana and W. ilvensis (Butters 1941). Plants of this hybrid normally produce abortive sporangia containing inviable spores. In 1944 Butters found a W. abbeae plant near Grand Portage, Minn. that had one fertile frond (Butters and Tryon 1948). The apical portion of this frond had fertile sporangia. Spores from this frond germinated and grew into prothallia. About six months after germination sporophytes were produced. They survived for about one year. Based on cytological evidence, Butters and Tryon concluded that the frond that produced the viable spores had gone tetraploid. They made no statement as to whether the sporophytes grown produced viable spores.

5.1.2 Animals
Speciation through hybridization and/or polyploidy has long been considered much less important in animals than in plants [[[refs.]]]. A number of reviews suggest that this view may be mistaken. (Lokki and Saura 1980; Bullini and Nascetti 1990; Vrijenhoek 1994). Bullini and Nasceti (1990) review chromosomal and genetic evidence that suggest that speciation through hybridization may occur in a number of insect species, including walking sticks, grasshoppers, blackflies and cucurlionid beetles. Lokki and Saura (1980) discuss the role of polyploidy in insect evolution. Vrijenhoek (1994) reviews the literature on parthenogenesis and hybridogenesis in fish. I will tackle this topic in greater depth in the next version of this document.

5.2 Speciations in Plant Species not Involving Hybridization or Polyploidy

5.2.1 Stephanomeira malheurensis
Gottlieb (1973) documented the speciation of Stephanomeira malheurensis. He found a single small population (< 250 plants) among a much larger population (> 25,000 plants) of S. exigua in Harney Co., Oregon. Both species are diploid and have the same number of chromosomes (N = 8). S. exigua is an obligate outcrosser exhibiting sporophytic self-incompatibility. S. malheurensis exhibits no self-incompatibility and self-pollinates. Though the two species look very similar, Gottlieb was able to document morphological differences in five characters plus chromosomal differences. F1 hybrids between the species produces only 50% of the seeds and 24% of the pollen that conspecific crosses produced. F2 hybrids showed various developmental abnormalities.

5.2.2 Maize (Zea mays)
Pasterniani (1969) produced almost complete reproductive isolation between two varieties of maize. The varieties were distinguishable by seed color, white versus yellow. Other genetic markers allowed him to identify hybrids. The two varieties were planted in a common field. Any plant’s nearest neighbors were always plants of the other strain. Selection was applied against hybridization by using only those ears of corn that showed a low degree of hybridization as the source of the next years seed. Only parental type kernels from these ears were planted. The strength of selection was increased each year. In the first year, only ears with less than 30% intercrossed seed were used. In the fifth year, only ears with less than 1% intercrossed seed were used. After five years the average percentage of intercrossed matings dropped from 35.8% to 4.9% in the white strain and from 46.7% to 3.4% in the yellow strain.

5.2.3 Speciation as a Result of Selection for Tolerance to a Toxin: Yellow Monkey Flower (Mimulus guttatus)
At reasonably low concentrations, copper is toxic to many plant species. Several plants have been seen to develop a tolerance to this metal (Macnair 1981). Macnair and Christie (1983) used this to examine the genetic basis of a postmating isolating mechanism in yellow monkey flower. When they crossed plants from the copper tolerant “Copperopolis” population with plants from the nontolerant “Cerig” population, they found that many of the hybrids were inviable. During early growth, just after the four leaf stage, the leaves of many of the hybrids turned yellow and became necrotic. Death followed this. This was seen only in hybrids between the two populations. Through mapping studies, the authors were able to show that the copper tolerance gene and the gene responsible for hybrid inviability were either the same gene or were very tightly linked. These results suggest that reproductive isolation may require changes in only a small number of genes.

5.3 The Fruit Fly Literature

5.3.1 Drosophila paulistorum
Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky (1971) reported a speciation event that occurred in a laboratory culture of Drosophila paulistorum sometime between 1958 and 1963. The culture was descended from a single inseminated female that was captured in the Llanos of Colombia. In 1958 this strain produced fertile hybrids when crossed with conspecifics of different strains from Orinocan. From 1963 onward crosses with Orinocan strains produced only sterile males. Initially no assortative mating or behavioral isolation was seen between the Llanos strain and the Orinocan strains. Later on Dobzhansky produced assortative mating (Dobzhansky 1972).

5.3.2 Disruptive Selection on Drosophila melanogaster
Thoday and Gibson (1962) established a population of Drosophila melanogaster from four gravid females. They applied selection on this population for flies with the highest and lowest numbers of sternoplural chaetae (hairs). In each generation, eight flies with high numbers of chaetae were allowed to interbreed and eight flies with low numbers of chaetae were allowed to interbreed. Periodically they performed mate choice experiments on the two lines. They found that they had produced a high degree of positive assortative mating between the two groups. In the decade or so following this, eighteen labs attempted unsuccessfully to reproduce these results. References are given in Thoday and Gibson 1970.

5.3.3 Selection on Courtship Behavior in Drosophila melanogaster
Crossley (1974) was able to produce changes in mating behavior in two mutant strains of D. melanogaster. Four treatments were used. In each treatment, 55 virgin males and 55 virgin females of both ebony body mutant flies and vestigial wing mutant flies (220 flies total) were put into a jar and allowed to mate for 20 hours. The females were collected and each was put into a separate vial. The phenotypes of the offspring were recorded. Wild type offspring were hybrids between the mutants. In two of the four treatments, mating was carried out in the light. In one of these treatments all hybrid offspring were destroyed. This was repeated for 40 generations. Mating was carried out in the dark in the other two treatments. Again, in one of these all hybrids were destroyed. This was repeated for 49 generations. Crossley ran mate choice tests and observed mating behavior. Positive assortative mating was found in the treatment which had mated in the light and had been subject to strong selection against hybridization. The basis of this was changes in the courtship behaviors of both sexes. Similar experiments, without observation of mating behavior, were performed by Knight, et al. (1956).

5.3.4 Sexual Isolation as a Byproduct of Adaptation to Environmental Conditions in Drosophila melanogaster
Kilias, et al. (1980) exposed D. melanogaster populations to different temperature and humidity regimes for several years. They performed mating tests to check for reproductive isolation. They found some sterility in crosses among populations raised under different conditions. They also showed some positive assortative mating. These things were not observed in populations which were separated but raised under the same conditions. They concluded that sexual isolation was produced as a byproduct of selection.

5.3.5 Sympatric Speciation in Drosophila melanogaster
In a series of papers (Rice 1985, Rice and Salt 1988 and Rice and Salt 1990) Rice and Salt presented experimental evidence for the possibility of sympatric speciation. They started from the premise that whenever organisms sort themselves into the environment first and then mate locally, individuals with the same habitat preferences will necessarily mate assortatively. They established a stock population of D. melanogaster with flies collected in an orchard near Davis, California. Pupae from the culture were placed into a habitat maze. Newly emerged flies had to negotiate the maze to find food. The maze simulated several environmental gradients simultaneously. The flies had to make three choices of which way to go. The first was between light and dark (phototaxis). The second was between up and down (geotaxis). The last was between the scent of acetaldehyde and the scent of ethanol (chemotaxis). This divided the flies among eight habitats. The flies were further divided by the time of day of emergence. In total the flies were divided among 24 spatio-temporal habitats.

They next cultured two strains of flies that had chosen opposite habitats. One strain emerged early, flew upward and was attracted to dark and acetaldehyde. The other emerged late, flew downward and was attracted to light and ethanol. Pupae from these two strains were placed together in the maze. They were allowed to mate at the food site and were collected. Eye color differences between the strains allowed Rice and Salt to distinguish between the two strains. A selective penalty was imposed on flies that switched habitats. Females that switched habitats were destroyed. None of their gametes passed into the next generation. Males that switched habitats received no penalty. After 25 generations of this mating tests showed reproductive isolation between the two strains. Habitat specialization was also produced.

They next repeated the experiment without the penalty against habitat switching. The result was the same – reproductive isolation was produced. They argued that a switching penalty is not necessary to produce reproductive isolation. Their results, they stated, show the possibility of sympatric speciation.

5.3.6 Isolation Produced as an Incidental Effect of Selection on several Drosophila species
In a series of experiments, del Solar (1966) derived positively and negatively geotactic and phototactic strains of D. pseudoobscura from the same population by running the flies through mazes. Flies from different strains were then introduced into mating chambers (10 males and 10 females from each strain). Matings were recorded. Statistically significant positive assortative mating was found.

In a separate series of experiments Dodd (1989) raised eight populations derived from a single population of D. Pseudoobscura on stressful media. Four populations were raised on a starch based medium, the other four were raised on a maltose based medium. The fly populations in both treatments took several months to get established, implying that they were under strong selection. Dodd found some evidence of genetic divergence between flies in the two treatments. He performed mate choice tests among experimental populations. He found statistically significant assortative mating between populations raised on different media, but no assortative mating among populations raised within the same medium regime. He argued that since there was no direct selection for reproductive isolation, the behavioral isolation results from a pleiotropic by-product to adaptation to the two media. Schluter and Nagel (1995) have argued that these results provide experimental support for the hypothesis of parallel speciation.

Less dramatic results were obtained by growing D. willistoni on media of different pH levels (de Oliveira and Cordeiro 1980). Mate choice tests after 26, 32, 52 and 69 generations of growth showed statistically significant assortative mating between some populations grown in different pH treatments. This ethological isolation did not always persist over time. They also found that some crosses made after 106 and 122 generations showed significant hybrid inferiority, but only when grown in acid medium.

5.3.7 Selection for Reinforcement in Drosophila melanogaster
Some proposed models of speciation rely on a process called reinforcement to complete the speciation process. Reinforcement occurs when to partially isolated allopatric populations come into contact. Lower relative fitness of hybrids between the two populations results in increased selection for isolating mechanisms. I should note that a recent review (Rice and Hostert 1993) argues that there is little experimental evidence to support reinforcement models. Two experiments in which the authors argue that their results provide support are discussed below.

Ehrman (1971) established strains of wild-type and mutant (black body) D. melanogaster. These flies were derived from compound autosome strains such that heterotypic matings would produce no progeny. The two strains were reared together in common fly cages. After two years, the isolation index generated from mate choice experiments had increased from 0.04 to 0.43, indicating the appearance of considerable assortative mating. After four years this index had risen to 0.64 (Ehrman 1973).

Along the same lines, Koopman (1950) was able to increase the degree of reproductive isolation between two partially isolated species, D. pseudoobscura and D. persimilis.

5.3.8 Tests of the Founder-flush Speciation Hypothesis Using Drosophila
The founder-flush (a.k.a. flush-crash) hypothesis posits that genetic drift and founder effects play a major role in speciation (Powell 1978). During a founder-flush cycle a new habitat is colonized by a small number of individuals (e.g. one inseminated female). The population rapidly expands (the flush phase). This is followed by the population crashing. During this crash period the population experiences strong genetic drift. The population undergoes another rapid expansion followed by another crash. This cycle repeats several times. Reproductive isolation is produced as a byproduct of genetic drift.

Dodd and Powell (1985) tested this hypothesis using D. pseudoobscura. A large, heterogeneous population was allowed to grow rapidly in a very large population cage. Twelve experimental populations were derived from this population from single pair matings. These populations were allowed to flush. Fourteen months later, mating tests were performed among the twelve populations. No postmating isolation was seen. One cross showed strong behavioral isolation. The populations underwent three more flush-crash cycles. Forty-four months after the start of the experiment (and fifteen months after the last flush) the populations were again tested. Once again, no postmating isolation was seen. Three populations showed behavioral isolation in the form of positive assortative mating. Later tests between 1980 and 1984 showed that the isolation persisted, though it was weaker in some cases.

Galina, et al. (1993) performed similar experiments with D. pseudoobscura. Mating tests between populations that underwent flush-crash cycles and their ancestral populations showed 8 cases of positive assortative mating out of 118 crosses. They also showed 5 cases of negative assortative mating (i.e. the flies preferred to mate with flies of the other strain). Tests among the founder-flush populations showed 36 cases of positive assortative mating out of 370 crosses. These tests also found 4 cases of negative assortative mating. Most of these mating preferences did not persist over time. Galina, et al. concluded that the founder-flush protocol yields reproductive isolation only as a rare and erratic event.

Ahearn (1980) applied the founder-flush protocol to D. silvestris. Flies from a line of this species underwent several flush-crash cycles. They were tested in mate choice experiments against flies from a continuously large population. Female flies from both strains preferred to mate with males from the large population. Females from the large population would not mate with males from the founder flush population. An asymmetric reproductive isolation was produced.

In a three year experiment, Ringo, et al. (1985) compared the effects of a founder-flush protocol to the effects of selection on various traits. A large population of D. simulans was created from flies from 69 wild caught stocks from several locations. Founder-flush lines and selection lines were derived from this population. The founder-flush lines went through six flush-crash cycles. The selection lines experienced equal intensities of selection for various traits. Mating test were performed between strains within a treatment and between treatment strains and the source population. Crosses were also checked for postmating isolation. In the selection lines, 10 out of 216 crosses showed positive assortative mating (2 crosses showed negative assortative mating). They also found that 25 out of 216 crosses showed postmating isolation. Of these, 9 cases involved crosses with the source population. In the founder-flush lines 12 out of 216 crosses showed positive assortative mating (3 crosses showed negative assortative mating). Postmating isolation was found in 15 out of 216 crosses, 11 involving the source population. They concluded that only weak isolation was found and that there was little difference between the effects of natural selection and the effects of genetic drift.

A final test of the founder-flush hypothesis will be described with the housefly cases below.

5.4 Housefly Speciation Experiments

5.4.1 A Test of the Founder-flush Hypothesis Using Houseflies
Meffert and Bryant (1991) used houseflies to test whether bottlenecks in populations can cause permanent alterations in courtship behavior that lead to premating isolation. They collected over 100 flies of each sex from a landfill near Alvin, Texas. These were used to initiate an ancestral population. From this ancestral population they established six lines. Two of these lines were started with one pair of flies, two lines were started with four pairs of flies and two lines were started with sixteen pairs of flies. These populations were flushed to about 2,000 flies each. They then went through five bottlenecks followed by flushes. This took 35 generations. Mate choice tests were performed. One case of positive assortative mating was found. One case of negative assortative mating was also found.

5.4.2 Selection for Geotaxis with and without Gene Flow
Soans, et al. (1974) used houseflies to test Pimentel’s model of speciation. This model posits that speciation requires two steps. The first is the formation of races in subpopulations. This is followed by the establishment of reproductive isolation. Houseflies were subjected to intense divergent selection on the basis of positive and negative geotaxis. In some treatments no gene flow was allowed, while in others there was 30% gene flow. Selection was imposed by placing 1000 flies into the center of a 108 cm vertical tube. The first 50 flies that reached the top and the first 50 flies that reached the bottom were used to found positively and negatively geotactic populations. Four populations were established:

Population A + geotaxis, no gene flow
Population B - geotaxis, no gene flow
Population C + geotaxis, 30% gene flow
Population D - geotaxis, 30% gene flow

Selection was repeated within these populations each generations. After 38 generations the time to collect 50 flies had dropped from 6 hours to 2 hours in Pop A, from 4 hours to 4 minutes in Pop B, from 6 hours to 2 hours in Pop C and from 4 hours to 45 minutes in Pop D. Mate choice tests were performed. Positive assortative mating was found in all crosses. They concluded that reproductive isolation occurred under both allopatric and sympatric conditions when very strong selection was present.

Hurd and Eisenberg (1975) performed a similar experiment on houseflies using 50% gene flow and got the same results.

5.5 Speciation Through Host Race Differentiation
Recently there has been a lot of interest in whether the differentiation of an herbivorous or parasitic species into races living on different hosts can lead to sympatric speciation. It has been argued that in animals that mate on (or in) their preferred hosts, positive assortative mating is an inevitable byproduct of habitat selection (Rice 1985; Barton, et al. 1988). This would suggest that differentiated host races may represent incipient species.

5.5.1 Apple Maggot Fly (Rhagoletis pomonella)
Rhagoletis pomonella is a fly that is native to North America. Its normal host is the hawthorn tree. Sometime during the nineteenth century it began to infest apple trees. Since then it has begun to infest cherries, roses, pears and possibly other members of the rosaceae. Quite a bit of work has been done on the differences between flies infesting hawthorn and flies infesting apple. There appear to be differences in host preferences among populations. Offspring of females collected from on of these two hosts are more likely to select that host for oviposition (Prokopy et al. 1988). Genetic differences between flies on these two hosts have been found at 6 out of 13 allozyme loci (Feder et al. 1988, see also McPheron et al. 1988). Laboratory studies have shown an asynchrony in emergence time of adults between these two host races (Smith 1988). Flies from apple trees take about 40 days to mature, whereas flies from hawthorn trees take 54-60 days to mature. This makes sense when we consider that hawthorn fruit tends to mature later in the season that apples. Hybridization studies show that host preferences are inherited, but give no evidence of barriers to mating. This is a very exciting case. It may represent the early stages of a sympatric speciation event (considering the dispersal of R. pomonella to other plants it may even represent the beginning of an adaptive radiation). It is important to note that some of the leading researchers on this question are urging caution in interpreting it. Feder and Bush (1989) stated:

“Hawthorn and apple “host races” of R. pomonella may therefore represent incipient species. However, it remains to be seen whether host-associated traits can evolve into effective enough barriers to gene flow to result eventually in the complete reproductive isolation of R. pomonella populations.”

5.5.2 Gall Former Fly (Eurosta solidaginis)
Eurosta solidaginis is a gall forming fly that is associated with goldenrod plants. It has two hosts: over most of its range it lays its eggs in Solidago altissima, but in some areas it uses S. gigantea as its host. Recent electrophoretic work has shown that the genetic distances among flies from different sympatric hosts species are greater than the distances among flies on the same host in different geographic areas (Waring et al. 1990). This same study also found reduced variability in flies on S. gigantea. This suggests that some E. solidaginis have recently shifted hosts to this species. A recent study has compared reproductive behavior of the flies associated with the two hosts (Craig et al. 1993). They found that flies associated with S. gigantea emerge earlier in the season than flies associated with S. altissima. In host choice experiments, each fly strain ovipunctured its own host much more frequently than the other host. Craig et al. (1993) also performed several mating experiments. When no host was present and females mated with males from either strain, if males from only one strain were present. When males of both strains were present, statistically significant positive assortative mating was seen. In the presence of a host, assortative mating was also seen. When both hosts and flies from both populations were present, females waited on the buds of the host that they are normally associated with. The males fly to the host to mate. Like the Rhagoletis case above, this may represent the beginning of a sympatric speciation.

5.6 Flour Beetles (Tribolium castaneum)
Halliburton and Gall (1981) established a population of flour beetles collected in Davis, California. In each generation they selected the 8 lightest and the 8 heaviest pupae of each sex. When these 32 beetles had emerged, they were placed together and allowed to mate for 24 hours. Eggs were collected for 48 hours. The pupae that developed from these eggs were weighed at 19 days. This was repeated for 15 generations. The results of mate choice tests between heavy and light beetles was compared to tests among control lines derived from randomly chosen pupae. Positive assortative mating on the basis of size was found in 2 out of 4 experimental lines.

5.7 Speciation in a Lab Rat Worm, Nereis acuminata
In 1964 five or six individuals of the polychaete worm, Nereis acuminata, were collected in Long Beach Harbor, California. These were allowed to grow into a population of thousands of individuals. Four pairs from this population were transferred to the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. For over 20 years these worms were used as test organisms in environmental toxicology. From 1986 to 1991 the Long Beach area was searched for populations of the worm. Two populations, P1 and P2, were found. Weinberg, et al. (1992) performed tests on these two populations and the Woods Hole population (WH) for both postmating and premating isolation. To test for postmating isolation, they looked at whether broods from crosses were successfully reared. The results below give the percentage of successful rearings for each group of crosses.

WH ? WH - 75%
P1 ? P1 - 95%
P2 ? P2 - 80%
P1 ? P2 - 77%
WH ? P1 - 0%
WH ? P2 - 0%

They also found statistically significant premating isolation between the WH population and the field populations. Finally, the Woods Hole population showed slightly different karyotypes from the field populations.

5.8 Speciation Through Cytoplasmic Incompatability Resulting from the Presence of a Parasite or Symbiont
In some species the presence of intracellular bacterial parasites (or symbionts) is associated with postmating isolation. This results from a cytoplasmic incompatability between gametes from strains that have the parasite (or symbiont) and stains that don’t. An example of this is seen in the mosquito Culex pipiens (Yen and Barr 1971). Compared to within strain matings, matings between strains from different geographic regions may may have any of three results: These matings may produce a normal number of offspring, they may produce a reduced number of offspring or they may produce no offspring. Reciprocal crosses may give the same or different results. In an incompatible cross, the egg and sperm nuclei fail to unite during fertilization. The egg dies during embryogenesis. In some of these strains, Yen and Barr (1971) found substantial numbers of Rickettsia-like microbes in adults, eggs and embryos. Compatibility of mosquito strains seems to be correlated with the strain of the microbe present. Mosquitoes that carry different strains of the microbe exhibit cytoplasmic incompatibility; those that carry the same strain of microbe are interfertile.

Similar phenomena have been seen in a number of other insects. Microoganisms are seen in the eggs of both Nasonia vitripennis and N. giraulti. These two species do not normally hybridize. Following treatment with antibiotics, hybrids occur between them (Breeuwer and Werren 1990). In this case, the symbiont is associated with improper condensation of host chromosomes.

For more examples and a critical review of this topic, see Thompson 1987.

5.9 A Couple of Ambiguous Cases
So far the BSC has applied to all of the experiments discussed. The following are a couple of major morphological changes produced in asexual species. Do these represent speciation events? The answer depends on how species is defined.

5.9.1 Coloniality in Chlorella vulgaris
Boraas (1983) reported the induction of multicellularity in a strain of Chlorella pyrenoidosa (since reclassified as C. vulgaris) by predation. He was growing the unicellular green alga in the first stage of a two stage continuous culture system as for food for a flagellate predator, Ochromonas sp., that was growing in the second stage. Due to the failure of a pump, flagellates washed back into the first stage. Within five days a colonial form of the Chlorella appeared. It rapidly came to dominate the culture. The colony size ranged from 4 cells to 32 cells. Eventually it stabilized at 8 cells. This colonial form has persisted in culture for about a decade. The new form has been keyed out using a number of algal taxonomic keys. They key out now as being in the genus Coelosphaerium, which is in a different family from Chlorella.

5.9.2 Morphological Changes in Bacteria
Shikano, et al. (1990) reported that an unidentified bacterium underwent a major morphological change when grown in the presence of a ciliate predator. This bacterium’s normal morphology is a short (1.5 um) rod. After 8 - 10 weeks of growing with the predator it assumed the form of long (20 um) cells. These cells have no cross walls. Filaments of this type have also been produced under circumstances similar to Boraas’ induction of multicellularity in Chlorella. Microscopic examination of these filaments is described in Gillott et al. (1993). Multicellularity has also been produced in unicellular bacterial by predation (Nakajima and Kurihara 1994). In this study, growth in the presence of protozoal grazers resulted in the production of chains of bacterial cells.

6.0 References
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Craig, T. P., J. K. Itami, W. G. Abrahamson and J. D. Horner. 1993. Behavioral evidence for host-race fromation in Eurosta solidaginis. Evolution. 47:1696-1710.

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This is just my point, scientists are just human beings. Science has served humanity well. Through it we have discovered countless natural laws of the universe and use that knowledge to make our lives easier in every area of our existence. But to limit a theist’s proofs to the confines of what the atheist determines is one sided. To a Christian, there are experiences that science and logic cannot explain and these experiences are real.

The atheist needs to recognize that we have experiences that are life changing. No mere psychological set of theories explains the changes in our lives. Can science nail down all that exists in mind, body, and soul? No. Can it quantify the beauty of a sunset, the sight of your newborn baby, or the love of a man and a woman? Science and logic have served us well, but they are not the ultimate truth to all things.

Of course, that does not mean we ignore science. In fact, we use it in our proofs for God. But to limit the playing field to your set of rules is an unfair way to start. It is mostly an attempt to initiate control and keep command of the conversation by setting the ground rules according to your criteria.

See, this is an argument I understand. However you are NOT treated unfairly. I really don?t think so. If you want to present an argument, a theory, whatever, AND if you want to call it scientific or bring it up in a science class it has to stick to the rules of science. And yes, when it comes to science the groung rules are pretty much set. But these groundrules are the same for every debate not only the ones that are sensitive to some christians.

And to prove you wrong? Yeah, right. If that was even remotely possible we wouldn?t have a problem.

Is that the best argument you can come up with? Come on, at least try to show something that signifies human evolution.[/quote]

That is actually a killer-argument. Really! Your theory cannot be proven wrong? Whamm, I sumoed your theory right off the scientific floor. I rule. (sorry, I?m pretty addicted to the maddox website right now).

And this is something you also have to get into your head. I know I may sound patronizing and condescending but you have to get your head around this. The reason why it is so important that theories are falsifiable is because science cannot prove anything. The only thing it can do, is to rule out theories that are wrong.

And here is why your theory is such a problem. By making it impossible to prove it wrong, you are sabotaging one of the most important parts of the scientific method. In this case it is actually you that sets the groundrules in a way that makes sure you cannot lose.

Dawkins agrees with you on the bone thing. He thinks it is very problematic to deduce body mass from one bone, because individuals of a certain species differ (your deVito/O?Neal argument). He still believes in evolution though.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
To the few on the thread who have not resorted to attacking Tuffold personally, I salute you. You are true T-Men! To those who have only jumped in for the sole purpose of attacking this man personally; I’m sure you wouldn’t do it if you could honestly see how closed minded and cowardly it looks.

[/quote]

When you look, there were amazingly few personal attacks. Attacks on belief systems (or what were charcterized as belief systems: Science is actually a dis-belief system) were plentiful, but what would you expect?

When you come to argue a scientific point on the basis of your religious faith, all the while insisting loudly that everyone else should keep an open mind, you deserve whatever abuse gets heaped on your head, and that goes double for your belief system.

endgamer,

no you don?t deserve everything. Someone actually critized Tuffloud because he enjoyed looking at female derrieres though he is religious.

That is clearly wrong.

Some things are holy.

Seriously.

The shape of the trained female gluteus maximus is one of them and if it was built by Him or by evolution is completely irrelevant when it comes to the sheer mesmerizing beauty of it.

Everyone who thinks differently is completely wrong because I am right 99,8 % of the time. I can prove that scientifically.

[quote]orion wrote:
no you don?t deserve everything. Someone actually critized Tuffloud because he enjoyed looking at female derrieres though he is religious.[/quote]

tush-e!

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
To the few on the thread who have not resorted to attacking Tuffold personally, I salute you. You are true T-Men! To those who have only jumped in for the sole purpose of attacking this man personally; I’m sure you wouldn’t do it if you could honestly see how closed minded and cowardly it looks.

When you look, there were amazingly few personal attacks. Attacks on belief systems (or what were charcterized as belief systems: Science is actually a dis-belief system) were plentiful, but what would you expect?

When you come to argue a scientific point on the basis of your religious faith, all the while insisting loudly that everyone else should keep an open mind, you deserve whatever abuse gets heaped on your head, and that goes double for your belief system.[/quote]

endgamer,

It was not just my faith in God that I based everything on. It was also incredible lack of evidence and possibility that your belief system holds. But most people are simply blinded by todays liberal society and can’t see through the deception.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Bacteria that are naturally resistant to antibiotics survive. This is becoming a big problem as antibiotics are becoming less effective.

So yes, “evolution” is still happening.[/quote]

This is entirely untrue. Bacteria that are naturally resistant to antibiotics are still simply bacteria, nothing more. Did the bacteria evolve into something other than bacteria? No, absolutely not.

This is just my point. Everyone likes to throw the “evolve” word around. These bacteria simply adapted to their enviornment. Period. You can bread billions of bacteria over and over and over again and all you get is bacteria, nothing more.

I’ve been hitting the weights really hard and doing a lot of work on my yard. I’ve developed some huge callous on my hands. I guess you could also say that I have “evolved”. Give me a break!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Bacteria that are naturally resistant to antibiotics survive. This is becoming a big problem as antibiotics are becoming less effective.

So yes, “evolution” is still happening.[/quote]

This is entirely untrue. Bacteria that are naturally resistant to antibiotics are still simply bacteria, nothing more. Did the bacteria evolve into something other than bacteria? No, absolutely not.

This is just my point. Everyone likes to throw the “evolve” word around. These bacteria simply adapted to their enviornment. Period. You can bread billions of bacteria over and over and over again and all you get is bacteria, nothing more.

I’ve been hitting the weights really hard and doing a lot of work on my yard. I’ve developed some huge callous on my hands. I guess you could also say that I have “evolved”. Give me a break!

The point was that there is a new species of basteria. There is bacteria around now that simply did not exist a hundred years ago, how is that an invalid point just because it is ‘still’ bacteria.

Your argument about the second law of thermodynamics shows a complete lack of knowledge in physics.

You just don’t understand the theory’s you argue against at all. You keep talking about these random proteins changing etc. Thats not how it works, I posted what I thought was a perfectly simple explaination of what happens that I thought you might understand but you obviously didn’t read it. Go back about 4 pages, its there.

Environments result in certain physical properties of an animal being advantageous. There is therefore selection pressures towards those properties. Thats it, it is simple. There is no magical proteins changing, simply a very slow change of the DNA code due to individual characteristics being more of an advantage and individuals lacking the advantage surviving at a lower rate.

“These bacteria simply adapted to their enviornment.”

Nice quote from a creationist.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:

Since you can’t seem to get off that quote. I will ask the same question again.

What has turned up in the last 15 years that completely proves this guy’s statement wrong? Specifically.

Also, either stop saying this quote is out of context and incorrect or proove what you claim.

You really don’t get it at all do you?

Really… you don’t seem to understand most of this discussion. I’ve already explained the problems with your attempt to make an argument by using selective, general quoting instead of citations of evidence.

I am sure that if you look on your creationist web page you can find Charles Darwin’s quote about the complexity of the eye. That quote doesn’t mean that Darwin rejected evolution or supported creationism. Are you going use that one too?

He said what he said, get over it. You can’t go back in time and change that, nor can you now.

[/quote]

The point is that your selective quotations do not have any significance in the argument, because they are taken out of context and do not reflect the true ideas or conclusions of teh author. The fact that I pointed out that you cited a bunch of out of context or plain erroneous quotations in your original post further proves my point.

A quote taken out of context that does not accurately reflect the views of the author is meaningless. In your original post you used a bunch of quotations to try and imply that evolution is thought of as a “theory in crisis” by the scientific community. Several of the quotations were out of context, and if you use the link I posted above you can see the original context of the quotations in question.

There were so many misquotes in that one post of yours taht I do not think I have the space to post the context of each one. Just use the link that I showed you, you will see that I am not making this up. If these people do not believe in evolution, why are they still evolutionists?

[quote]

The Darwin topic of the complexity of the eye is another great topic.[/quote]

It is actually one of the most egregious examples of quoting out of context ever used by creationists. It just further shows the fallacy of your argument.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Bacteria that are naturally resistant to antibiotics survive. This is becoming a big problem as antibiotics are becoming less effective.

So yes, “evolution” is still happening.

This is entirely untrue. Bacteria that are naturally resistant to antibiotics are still simply bacteria, nothing more. Did the bacteria evolve into something other than bacteria? No, absolutely not.

This is just my point. Everyone likes to throw the “evolve” word around. These bacteria simply adapted to their enviornment. Period. You can bread billions of bacteria over and over and over again and all you get is bacteria, nothing more.

[/quote]

Several people have posted examples of new species that have evolved. Are you just going to continue to deny these occurences?

Another terrible analogy. Evolution deals with genetic traits that are passed down through reproduction. How is a callous on your hand a genetic trait? Are you confusing Darwinian and Lamarckian evolution?

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
juerocalvo wrote:
On what tuffloud wrote:

That little calculation is meaningless, because evolution does NOT claim that proteins, amino acids, bacteria or anything else spontaneously emerged from randomness. Modern theories of abiogenesis state that the evolution from simple peptides to bacteria occurred in small gradual changes. Your calculation with the train cars is based upon a random, independent event. Evolution follows the laws of chemistry and physics, things don’t just randomly and spontaneously appear.

more on abiogenesis:

Did you catch the explanation for the Miller-Urey experiment 6 posts up?

[/quote]

How does the fact that this experiment is not an exact replication of the original evolution of amino acids in any way constitute a disproof of evolution? I will note one interesting thing though… if you used your little mathematical model that compares evolution to a completely random process, it would come uop with a ridiculously low probability for the results, and show the flaws of your model.

[quote]

All recognized life forms are produced by preexisting organisms known as biogenesis, and the scientific community can not demonstrate abiogenesis under any conceivable conditions.

Despite the absence of proof, abiogenesis has become accepted by nearly all practicing scientists. The theory remains virtually unchanged since its inception in the 1920s, and assumes that life originated at some point in earth’s past under conditions no longer present. The tenet of evolution can be summed-up by the phrase “abiogenesis at first biogenesis ever since”.

It is taught today as a certainty although the exact mechanisms remain theoretical. Discussions in evolutionary biology textbooks go to great lengths to demonstrate how abiogenesis could have occurred under multiple primordial scenarios.[/quote]

So your entire argument is that since abiogenesis has not been completely and exactly duplicated in a lab, evolution is false. That makes no sense. Evolutionary biology, like any other science, has not explained everything completely. Incompleteness in one aspect in no way disproves evolution as a whole. By your little paradigm physics, chemistry, or any other science should not be taught because of a lack of completeness.

No scientist derives their evidence for ecolution based upon a model of abiogenesis. In fact, evolution is based upon completely dfferent evidence. The only thing that is taught as a certainty is evolution in general-scientists are still advancing theories on specific aspects of evolution, including abogenesis.

Tuffloud: Define creationism, and give details of your theory. Explain the differences between your theory and that of “evolutionists”. Show evidence that supports your theory. Explain how your theory can be tested, and explain what evidence could disprove your theory.

The horse no longer lives. We’ve beaten it to death. You’re dealing someone who is an attention whore in the most extreme sense. Just let him live in his own psychotic world if it makes him feel better. Its impossible to talk to someone who twists stuff around and completely disregards other things. Its painfully obvious how blind and brain washed he is. This thread has evolved enough and now its time to let it die…

I want to make it clear: for me, this is not a theistic/atheistic issue. Creation “science” is misunderstanding built on misunderstanding. It’s sole purpose is to try to “wash away” the very powerful evidence of evolution because some biblical literalists know that that destroys a literal Genesis, and that destroys the only source of truth for them because they have no tradition.

A VERY small minority of groups which call themselves Christian are biblical literlists (with regard to the first few chapters of Genesis) and the term didn’t even exist until the 1900s.

I believe that God does work through evolution, but the complexity of the eye, or the “random chance” of arriving at life are terrible examples.

Here’s one that does interest me though.

Flys (protostomates) and rats (deuterostomates) not have any homologous structures. They have backwards embreyonic development. the head of a fly has no genetic homology to the head of a mouse, yet when the gene for eyes is removed from a flye and placed in a mouse zygote which has no natural eye gene, the mouse developes normal mouse eyes.

By gene mapping its been suggested that even the gene for eyespots in flatworms contains ALL of the necessary genetic information to make a human eye in a similar situation, even though the human eye is not considered to by evolutionarily connected to the flatworm eyespot, and is thousands of times more complex. In other words, the gene for our complex eye was present half a billion years ago in flatworms even though it contains thousands of times more info than needed.

[quote]orion wrote:
but he insists that his arguments are scientific. Creationists even want it taught in science classes.[/quote]

To a devoutly religious person, the notion that there is a God is so obviously correct, he is simply unable to comprehend why you don’t believe it. It’s like saying you don’t believe people have feet; it seems completely insane.

So from their perspective, children should be taught that people have feet, and the evolution camp is loudly arguing that no such ludicrous stupidity should be taught in schools.

Wouldn’t you think it was insane and dangerous for a group of influential people to demand that our children NOT be taught something that is obviously true?

I actually agree with the scientific camp on this one, though: you can’t teach creation in schools, because there is no single authoritative version of creation. Even if we could all agree on one translation of the account in Genesis, different faiths respond to questions about it differently. (There are also two accounts of creation in Genesis, and different faiths reconcile their inconsistencies differently.)

I believe the Jewish tradition is the right one. You send your children to one school where they learn maths and history, and another (yeshivah) where they learn faith and tradition. Since only Jewish children attend yeshivah, the Jewish version can be given to the entire class without offending anyone. So I think christian children should learn these things in sunday school at their church, although I would encourage at least one or two additional days of faith-based education during the week.

I would also go so far as to propose that secular groups should teach evolutionary theories about origins separately from public schooling. The question of where life originated is a complex one, fraught with peril, and I don’t believe it’s appropriate for public schools. Same for sex: parents should teach sexual matters to their children, and schools should stay out of it. While this does mean that certain parents will not teach their children, or will teach their children improperly, it also means the school doesn’t teach my children something stupid like “abstinence is good” or “monogamy is natural” or “you’re too young”.

CD, you’re exactly right, and this is what frustrates me about North America: religion =Christianity (seemingly even to atheists). [Although you mentioned Judaism, it seems to evoke a “close enough” attitude (not by anyone in particular)]

Here’s a good way to explain the ease of disbelief to Christians: demonstrate that, despite being faith-based (just like their own religion), there are hundreds of Gods that they don’t believe in. It’s just that easy.

Cheers

[quote]CDarklock wrote:

To a devoutly religious person, the notion that there is a God is so obviously correct, he is simply unable to comprehend why you don’t believe it. It’s like saying you don’t believe people have feet; it seems completely insane. [/quote]

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
You guys just keep bringing up God. Why? I have given information that is “scientific” despite what all the “no it all” evolutionists want you to believe.[/quote]

As I’ve just said, you’re basing your claim on a premise which is not mutually established. The scientific notion is that God’s existence is not and cannot be established. Given that maybe there is a God and maybe there is not a God, evolution is more likely than creation because it MIGHT be true in either instance – while creation can only be true if there is a God.

Essentially, no matter how scientific your argument is (and to be honest, I haven’t really looked at it), the scientific camp is never going to accept the initial premise that there definitely is a God. Thus, your logic proceeds from an unestablished assumption, and cannot be accepted. Those are the rules. You can’t win.

Of course, they’re WRONG, so neither can they. But that’s not much comfort.

Neither does hell. Hell is a Zoroastrian concept shoehorned into christianity by Paul for no good purpose, and Jesus did not say a single word about it. Neither did any of the previous prophets.

I think the notion that sin gets punished by eternal damnation is far more harmful than the notion that men might have evolved from monkeys. It’s the product of a sick mind, and it tends to twist perfectly healthy minds into similar and occasionally far worse varieties of sickness.

Handle the beam, not the mote.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
It was not just my faith in God that I based everything on. It was also incredible lack of evidence and possibility that your belief system holds…

[/quote]

But the two are exactly the same thing, given your faith in the literal truth of the Bible. No amount of evidence could ever seem sufficient to you, since you readily discount any that leads to a conclusion your faith finds unacceptable.

You have no desire to seek the truth, because you have no need to seek the truth. You believe you know the truth already. Fine enough. I have no quarrel really.

But when you then characterize science as a belief system, that is offensive; when you present yourself as seeking the truth, that is offensive; and when you criticize others for being close-minded, that is very offensive.

And when you discount the notion that someone can be a Christian yet subscribe to evolution as being the more likely explanation of the facts than Genesis, I personally find you are being very, very offensive.