Evolution vs. Creation

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
tuffloud wrote:
You get paid to play on the internet? I get paid to work and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Also, you have no idea of the conditions of my family leave and what I’m doing when I’m not posting.

With how much you’re posting on here I dont see how you can be doing anything else but googling a response to people’s posts.

Ahhh my brother, quantifying what you do as being more important than what I do for work. Again you’re looking down on others. Thats not very holy of you. I seriously dont remember the bible teaching people to be self-centered, egotistical, closed minded, narcistic individual like yourself. If you ask me, and I know you didnt, but you have an aweful lot to work on to be a well adjusted human being. Everything seems to be about you. I thought being as selfish and self-centered as you are would be against everything the bible stand for?

Here’s some advice, stop trying to spread religious propaganda and spend time with your family. I know if I was on family leave I would be spending every moment with my family not playing internet prophet. But you’re a self-centered selfish person and arent like that. Read the good book some more, you have a lot of work to do on yourself before you dare try to preach to anyone else when its obvious you aren’t following it correctly in the first place.[/quote]

You know, you are right in some of the things you are saying about me. Please forgive me. I forgive you for anything bad you have said about me. I shouldn’t be arguing with you on this level.

One thing is for certain though - everyone answers to God - you, me, everyone. I will pray for everyone who doesn’t see that God has a plan for you.

I’m done posting in this thread. God Bless everyone. I hope we can all remain friends on this internet site in the future.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
If any of you that are true Christians out there that have been regularly reading this thread, have I made you reject anything? Please post and let us know.
[/quote]

Yes, I am/was a devout Mormon, but after reading this thread, I’m seriously questioning my belief in God and Jesus. TSB :slight_smile:

The scientists made much more sense. Although I appreciate you keeping away from the Ad Hominem’s you ran into several logical fallacies; Fallacy From Ignorance, Appeal to Prejudicial Language, Appeal to Popularity, Appeal to Personal Experience, Appeal to Authority, Fallacy of Anonymous Authority, False Analogy, Slothful Induction, Fallacy of Exclusion, Post Hoc, Joint Effect, Complex Cause, Begging the Question, Irrelevant Conclusion, Straw Man, Fallacy of Equivocation, Division Error, Fallacy of Non-support, Fallacy of Untestability, and some Fallacies of Definition.

I might have missed some but the biggest one was Begging the Question. I’ll put the definition here for you.

Definition:
The truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises. Often, the conclusion is simply restated in the premises in a slightly different form. In more difficult cases, the premise is a consequence of the conclusion.

Examples:
(i) Since I’m not lying, it follows that I’m telling the truth.

(ii) We know that God exists, since the Bible says God exists. What the Bible says must be true, since God wrote it and God never lies. (Here, we must agree that God exists in order
to believe that God wrote the Bible.)

Proof:
Show that in order to believe that the premises are true we must already agree that the conclusion is true.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and you opted out of this thread graciously. However, it seems to me like you entered this thread not with the goals of determining which one was correct, but rather with your own deicision firmly made without any readiness to change your view based upon the argument that would follow.

That is called proselytizing. You had no desire to find out the truth, only to convince others of your ‘truth’.

While you are entitled to your opinions and your judgement of others, I think your start of this thread was in bad faith. It wasn’t really supposed to be an argument for the truth. However, maybe you’ve learned something from this “discussion”. I certainly have.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
JonP wrote:
tuffloud wrote:
A God less way of thinking:

It’s possible that if someone threw a grenade into a junk yard every second for and infinate amount of time, it’s possible that we would get a perfect working 747 with every little bolt aligned.

A person who does believe in God:

There is so much incredible design in our bodies and every aspect of this planet for it to just have happened by chaos. Chaos does not bring any intelligent design, let alone ours.

Horrible analogy. This assumes that human beings are “perfect” and that we were “meant” to be exactly how we are. Humans are not “the way”, but are just “a way” if you understand what I’m saying.

And that un-intelligent design link is actually a very good argument against intelligent design. I suggest you go back and click on it if you haven’t.

By stating “un-intelligent design”, are you admitting that we have a “designer” but he has made errors?

[/quote]

I take it by your response that you haven’t checked out the link. It’s general point is if this was all created by some “intelligent” being, then the “intelligent” being would actually be pretty stupid.

Please don’t take things out of context acting like what I said in my previous post was in any way shape or form an admission that there is a creator.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
One of the greatest miracles of the Bible is its unity. Look at the following amazing facts:

The 66 books of the Bible were written:

  1. On three continents.
  2. In three languages.
  3. By about 40 different people (kings, shepherds, scientists, attorneys, an army general, fishermen, priests, and a physician).
  4. Over a period of about 1,500 years.
  5. On the most controversial subjects.
  6. By people who, in most cases, had never met.
  7. By authors whose education and background varied greatly.

Yet, though it seems totally inconceivable,

  1. The 66 books maintain harmony with each other.
  2. Often new concepts on a subject are expressed, but these concepts do not undermine what other Bible writers say on the same subject.

Talk about astounding!
Ask people who have viewed an identical event to each give a report of what happened. They will differ widely and will virtually always contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers over a 1,500-year period, reads as if written by one great mind. And, indeed, it was: “Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21. The Holy Ghost “moved” them all. He is the real Bible Author. The four Gospels do sometimes differ in the way they report the same event, but they complement each other.

[/quote]

It’s only amazing if you fail to acknowledge that the Council of Nicea went through all of the religious texts they had at their disposal and tossed out the ones that didn’t fit their dogma. Then they went through each of the cannonized texts and made revisisions, additions and ommissions to make sure they didn’t overtly contradict one another… and that they still managed to fail in that task and there are numerous contradictions and flat out falsehoods rampant in the Bible, precisely because of the hodge podge a nature of it’s writing.

Well, now that this thread is pretty much over, I wanted to post an appropriate joke. Now, since I’m an engineer, it’s obviously funny to me, but hopefully some of you humanities people will appreciate it.

Three engineering students were gathered together discussing the possible designers of the human body.

One said, “It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints.”

Another said, “No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of electrical connections.”

The last said, “Actually it was a civil engineer. Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area?”

Tube
Steak
Boogie

[quote]goldin wrote:
Well, now that this thread is pretty much over…[/quote]

What I find impressive is that nobody made nazi comparisons. I wanted to call Godwin’s Law :frowning:

dont be complaining man, i called for poppers criterion of falsifiability but no one seemed to pay attention…

its just as good, though its obvious that creationism canot comply with it…

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
vroom wrote:
I wonder why God would go to all the trouble to create fossils showing evolution if there was no such thing as evolution…

Hahahahaha. That God, he’s such a joker! And if he’s that much of a joker, you’d better really be taking a close look at the passages in the bible, because there is no telling which ones are jokes and which ones aren’t.

Oh, but wait, if he’s not a joker, then evolutionary evidence wasn’t put up as a sham to hide creation, then what the hell is it doing there? Oh, maybe evolution should be looked into, since there is widespread evidence of it.

Retards.

vroom,

Have you studied the Bible? Have you read the entire Bible from front to back a few times to understand anything about it? Have you seeked the answers in it?

[/quote]

Tuffloud,

have you studied Dawkins and Goulds books? Have you read their entire books from front to back to understand anything about it? Have you seeked the answers in it?

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
juerocalvo wrote:
tuffloud wrote:
As for the statement that “chaos does not bring any intelligent design”-if you are saying that an ordered system can not arise from an unguided process, that is just false. There are endless examples of this in teh physical world.

What examples do you have proving that DNA and cells can form out of an unguided process.

[/quote]

?h, me, you,

life in general? You still seem to operate under the misguided assumption that the theory of evolution states that a single cell just popped into existence, including DNA, organelles, etc.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:

You know, you are right in some of the things you are saying about me. Please forgive me. I forgive you for anything bad you have said about me. I shouldn’t be arguing with you on this level.

One thing is for certain though - everyone answers to God - you, me, everyone. I will pray for everyone who doesn’t see that God has a plan for you.

I’m done posting in this thread. God Bless everyone. I hope we can all remain friends on this internet site in the future.

[/quote]

wow so much to read,

but im still with Karl Marx and Darwin on this one

[quote]epote wrote:
What I find impressive is that nobody made nazi comparisons. I wanted to call Godwin’s Law :frowning:

dont be complaining man, i called for poppers criterion of falsifiability but no one seemed to pay attention…

its just as good, though its obvious that creationism canot comply with it…[/quote]

Epote,

I doubt you?ll get an answer. I?m also still waiting for an answer where the hell he gets his ideas about neodarwinism from. Not from neodarwinists themselves, he more or less bashes his misguided version of it.

That?s like me claiming: the bible demands we eat little children! It also says we have to sacrifice people to ensure economic success! Tuffloud, how can you possibly believe in something like that !?!

And if I hear that airplane analogy once again… Grrrr…

Alright, how about just one more post…

Does Science support the theory of evolution? A lot depends on interpretation and meaning given to the data. For example, two people can look at the fossil record with differing views. One can arrange the fossils in some sort of order from simple to complex organisms and suggest this shows evidence for evolution. However, the person has applied his own predetermined viewpoint to the data, progression of change from one type of organism to another. Another person may insist that the fossils show a different story as suggested in this web site.

However, based on hard evidence, there are scientists who think that science does not clearly support the theory of evolution. In his book Darwin’s Black Box, Prof. Michael Behe comments that there have always been since the time of Darwin, well informed and respected scientists who have found Darwinism to be inadequate.

What is belief in evolution based on? - Current beliefs in evolution are built up on data from a range of sources (Green, Stout and Taylor, 1990) such as fossil evidence, the order of fossils in the geological column, comparative anatomy, DNA relatedness, knowledge of mutations in DNA, adaptive radiation, comparative embryology and comparative biochemistry.

What are the main contentious points-

There is no explanation for the appearance of the first living cells (Abiogenesis).

Living systems are irreducibly complex.

There is a rapid appearance of life in the Cambrian rocks (Cambrian explosion).

There are gaps in the fossil records.

Living fossils show the stability of species over time.

Anatomical homology does not always relate to similar genes.

Mutations lead to loss of original function.

Mutations do not lead to larger and more complex genomes.

The evidence for early man is scant and inconclusive.

What would be the evidence if evolution were true?

If Abiogenesis occurred giving rise to the first self replicating cells from non-organic material, then it would not be unreasonable to suggest that scientists with present day knowledge could emulate the conditions necessary for this and produce (under presumed early earth conditions) the first self-replicating single cells from non-organic matter.

If these living single cells (which in the case of bacteria can divide as fast as every 20 minutes) then gave rise to more complex organisms it would not be unreasonable to be able to observe this to some extent, bearing in mind the rapid replication of such cells and the chance to study billions upon billions of them over many generations in a short space of time.

If the first easily visible creatures then gave rise to all other forms, one ought to be able to observe in the fossil records a fluid record of change over time, starting with the simplest of organisms in the lowest layers of the geological column. It would also seem unlikely that there would be records of creatures that seemed to have remained unchanged over time. Moreover, if the main mechanism for such changes was mutation there should be ample evidence that mutation in general led to beneficial changes in organisms.

What would be the evidence if creation were true? If Creation were true, it might be possible that the simplest organisms, thought to be the origin of all other life forms, turned out to be highly complex with no evidence of them forming by chance. In turn, it might be observed that these so-called “simple cells” were relatively stable and only gave rise to similar “simple cells”.

The fossil record should show the sudden appearance of creatures with no ancestors. Additionally, the fossil records should show a general stability within species.

Mistakes in copying DNA (mutations), rather than giving rise to improvements in species may give rise to loss of original intended function.

Contentions. Darwin said in his book on the Origin of Species that “a fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question”. Below are a few areas where there is some contention with the theory of evolution and where we shall look briefly at the other side of the question. It is accepted that the big bang is not part of the theory of evolution, but it is mentioned here and on this site as it forms part of current thoughts on our overall origins.

Big Bang - even if there was such a thing as the big bang, this does not begin to explain how the rich variety of life on earth came into being.

“There are an increasing number of observational facts which are difficult to reconcile in the Big-Bang hypothesis. The Big Bang establishment very seldom mentions these, and when non-believers try to draw attention to them, the powerful establishment refuses to discuss them in a fair way…”. Hannes Olof G?sta Alfven (Nobel prize for Physics in 1970). “Cosmology: Myth or Science?” in Journal of Astrophysics and Astronomy 5 (1970), p. 1203.

“The Big Bang represents the instantaneous suspension of physical laws, the sudden, abrupt flash of lawlessness that allowed something to come out of nothing. It represents a true miracle—transcending physical principles”. Paul Davies, The Edge of Infinity (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1981), p161.

“The Big Bang is only a myth that attempts to say how the universe came into being.” Hannes Alfvn (Nobel prize for Physics in 1970). The Big Bang Never Happened, Discover 9 (June 1988), p. 78.

Simple cells: In Darwin’s day and for some time after, people considered that living cells such as protozoa were very simple. Ernst Haeckel, Darwin’s popularizer in Germany, claimed that a cell was a 'simple lump of aluminous combination of carbon. Such cells and all cells are in fact incredibly complex and there is no scientific evidence that they can form by chance. Once formed, there is no evidence that so called simple cells become anything different. If bacteria are used as an example of “simple cells”, it is possible to study billions upon billions of them for many generations, because they are so small and can make copies of themselves as often as every 20 minutes. No studies to date have ever shown that bacteria even after thousands of generations, become anything but bacteria. Indeed, multiple passages of bacteria can lead to loss in properties not gaining of new ones. For example, the BCG vaccine is derived from the bacteria Mycobacterium bovis passaged many times forms. The passaged bacteria has lost it’s disease producing properties, although it is still able to stimulate the immune system.

“In tracking the emergence of the eukaryotic cell one enters a kind of wonderland where scientific pursuit leads almost to fantasy. Cell and molecular biologists must construct cellular worlds in their own imaginations. … Imagination, to some degree, is essential for grasping the key events in cellular history.” – B.D. Dyer and R.A. Obar, Tracing the History of Eukarytic Cells, Columbia University Press 1994, pp. 2 & 3.

“I would rather believe in fairy tales than in such wild speculation. I have said for years that speculations about the origin of life lead to no useful purpose as even the simplest living system is far too complex to be understood in terms of the extremely primitive chemistry scientists have used in their attempts to explain the unexplainable. God cannot be explained away by such naive thoughts.” Sir Ernest Chain, co-holder of 1945 Nobel prize for developing penicillin. as quoted by Ronald W. Clark, The Life of Ernst Chain (London: Weidenfield & Nicolson, 1985), pp. 147-148.

“The development of the metabolic system, which, as the primordial soup thinned, must have “learned” to mobilize chemical potential and to synthesize the cellular components, poses Herculean problems. So also does the emergence of the selectively permeable membrane without which there can be no viable cell. But the major problem is the origin of the genetic code and of its translation mechanism. Indeed, instead of a problem it ought rather to be called a riddle. The code is meaningless unless translated. The modern cell’s translating machinery consists of at least fifty macromolecular components which are themselves coded in DNA: the code cannot be translated otherwise than by products of translation. It is the modern expression of omne vivum ex ovo [everything that lives, (comes) from an egg]. When and how did this circle become closed? It is exceedingly difficult to imagine.” Jacques Monod (Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1965, biochemist, Director, Pasteur Institute, France. “Chance and Necessity: An Essay on the Natural Philosophy of Modern Biology”, [1971], Transl. Wainhouse A., Penguin Books: London, 1997, reprint, pp.142-143. Emphasis in original).

Adaptation, mutation and selection- Adaptation, mutation and selection does not explain the rich variety of life on Earth. Even standard school text books state that mutations are rare and that most mutations are harmful not beneficial (Alderson and Rowland, 1995). By studying fossil records one can observe the stability of species over time, rather than them changing into other forms. Certain environments may select for a particular type of organism, but this is only selecting what is already there. If a particular organism out-competes others, this can lead to loss of species (the opposite of evolution).

“I just cannot believe that everything developed by random mutations…”. (Dr Dennis Gabor, winner of 1971 Noble peace prize in Science).

Professor Pierre-Paul Grasse, past president of the French Acadamy of sciences has said:- “No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution”. (Grasse, P. P., 1977).

“To postulate that the development and survival of the fittest is entirely a consequence of chance mutations seems to me a hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts. These classical evolutionary theories are a gross over-simplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and it amazes me that they are swallowed so uncritically and so readily, by so many scientist without a murmur of protest”. Sir Ernest Chain, co-holder of 1945 Nobel prize for developing penicillin.

“Most biological reactions are chain reactions. To interact in a chain, these precisely built molecules must fit together most precisely, as the cog wheels of a Swiss watch do. But if this is so, then how can such a system develop at all? For if any one of the specific cog wheels in these chains is changed, then the whole system must simply become inoperative. Saying it can be improved by random mutation of one link, is like saying you could improve a Swiss watch by dropping it and thus bending one of its wheels or axes. To get a better watch, all the wheels must be changed simultaneously to make a good fit again.” Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi von Nagyrapolt (Nobel prize for Medicine in 1937). “Drive in Living Matter to Perfect Itself,” Synthesis I, Vol. 1, No. 1, p. 18 (1977) [winner of two Nobel Prizes for scientific research and Director of Research at the Institute for Muscle Research in Massachusetts].

“May not a future generation well ask how any Scientist, in full possession of his faculties and with adequate knowledge of information theory, could execute the feat of cognitive acrobatics necessary to sincerely believe that a (supremely complex) machine of information, storage and retrieval servicing millions of cells, diagnosing defects and then repairing them in a teleonomic Von Newman machine manner, arose in randomness - the antipole of information”. (Dr A. E. Wilder-Smith, deliverer of the Huxley Memorial lecture at the Oxford Union, Oxford University, 1986).

Fossil evidence- The fossil evidence shows three major characteristics that contradict the theory of evolution. Firstly, there is an absence of intermediate forms. Secondly, there are a vast number of plant, insect, fish and mammal fossils that are identical to organisms that are alive today and are described as living fossils. Thirdly, the sudden appearance in Cambrian rock of fully formed complex creatures with no evidence of earlier forms. “Virtually all of the major divisions of life (the phyla) are found in the Cambrian, the rock system which evolutionists maintain is more than 500 million years old”.

Thus, fossils show the great stability with which organisms can reproduce themselves rather than their ability to change into other forms. The fact that many species in the fossil records are not alive today does not support evolution. Species have become extinct and are continuing to do so at an alarming rate. The world-wide gene pool is diminishing, not growing. This is the opposite of what the theory of evolution proposes for life on earth.

Why then is not every geological formation full of such intermediate links. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic change, and this is the most obvious and serious objection that can be urged against the theory". (Darwin, Origin Of The Species).

Evolutionist David Raup, Curator of Geology at Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History said:- “The evidence we find in the geological record is not nearly as compatible with Darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be …We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than in Darwin’s time … so Darwin’s problem has not been alleviated”. (Raup, Field museum of Natural History Bulletin).

“With few exceptions, radically new kinds of organisms appear for the first time in the fossil record already fully evolved, with most of their characteristic features present”. Dr T S Kemp, Curator of Zoological collections, Oxford University (Kemp, 1999. Fossils and evolution, p. 253).

Steven Stanley, an affirmed evolutionist, was objective enough to point out:- ?The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that a gradualistic model can be valid.? Steven M. Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process. San Francisco: W. M. Freeman & Co., 1979, p. 39.

“Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations. Fossil evidence of chimpanzee evolution is absent altogether”. (Henry Gee, Nature vol. 412 p. 131, 2001).

Speaking of the Cambrian fauna, there are many that still survive, all looking much like they did over 500 million years ago. The prominent British evolutionists, Richard Dawkins, has made the following comment: “And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists”. Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (New York: W.W. Norton Co., 1987).

George Gaylord Simpson, another leading evolutionist, sees this characteristic in practically the whole range of taxonomic categories:- "…Every palaeontologist knows that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all categories above the level of family appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.? George Gaylord Simpson (evolutionist), The Major Features of Evolution, New York, Columbia University Press, 1953 p. 360.

Comparative anatomy and biochemistry- One of the major problems of using comparative anatomy or biochemistry as evidence for evolution is that they can equally well be used as evidence for intelligent design. For example, the similarities in cars manufactured across the world is not evidence that they self assembled themselves (accepted that this is impossible as they are not living) from a lump of metal once and have evolved new features in time - rather, it is evidence of intelligent design behind making cars.

On a different note, haemoglobin, the molecule that carries oxygen around the body in red blood cells is found in all vertebrates, but also exists in earthworms, starfish, molluscs, in some insects and plants and even in certain bacteria (Blanchard, 2002). However, when scientists examined the haemoglobin of crocodiles, vipers and chicken, they found that crocodiles were more closely related to chickens based on similarity in haemoglobin than to their fellow reptiles (Blanchard, 2002). Other similar examples exist. On this basis, the whole idea of protein relatedness resulting from evolution falls down.

DNA relatedness- As with comparative anatomy and biochemistry, DNA relatedness can equally well be used as evidence for intelligent design as it can be for evolution.

Our bodies comprise millions of individual cells and each of these cells carry out complex biochemical reactions to perform the tasks relevant for that cell. At an external level we look very different from say a mouse or a banana. However, humans share the same environment as both the mouse and the banana and, like the mouse and the banana, we require oxygen, some common nutrients, minerals and water for our survival, repair and growth. Thus, there will be some commonality in the biochemical processes that go on within the cell of a human or a mouse or a banana. In the same way, there will be some commonality in gene sequences between species, thus DNA relatedness.

DNA codes for proteins so similarity in proteins (or otherwise) can also be related to similarity (or otherwise) in DNA sequence. Haemoglobin, the molecule that carries oxygen around the body in red blood cells is found in all vertebrates, but also exists in earthworms, starfish, molluscs, in some insects and plants and even in certain bacteria (Blanchard, 2002). However, when scientists examined the haemoglobin of crocodiles, vipers and chicken, they found that crocodiles were more closely related to chickens based on similarity in haemoglobin than to their fellow reptiles (Blanchard, 2002). Other similar examples exist. On this basis the whole idea of DNA (or protein) relatedness resulting from evolution falls down.

Early man- The evidence for apes becoming man is scant and inconclusive, the experts often disagree with each other. The great degree of similarity between the skeleton of an ape and a human make the limited number of bones from supposed intermediate forms difficult to assess. DNA relatedness may point to similarity of design rather than chance mutations from a simple cell and “Mitochondrial Eve” has been shown to fit a creationist’s model.

“The real question is whether we have enough imagination to reconstruct their lives [the lives of early humans].” – Robert Blumenschine, paleo-anthropologist of Rutgers University in a 1989 U.S. News and World Report cover story.

“The vast majority of artist’s conceptions are based more on imagination than on evidence…Artists must create something between an ape and a human being; the older the specimen is said to be, the more ape-like they make it.” - “Anthro Art”, Science Digest April 1981 pg 41.

“No-one can be sure just what any extinct hominoid looked like.” Donald C Johnson and Maitland A Edey, Lucy: The beginnings of Humankind (1981) p 286.

“The main problem in reconstructing the origins of man is lack of fossil evidence: all there is could be displayed on a dinner table.” - New Scientist 20 May 1982 pg 491.

“Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations. Fossil evidence of chimpanzee evolution is absent altogether”. (Henry Gee, Nature vol. 412 p. 131, 2001).

“If pressed about man’s ancestry, I would have to unequivocally say that all we have is a huge question mark. To date, there has been nothing found to truthfully purport as a transitional specie to man, including Lucy, since 1470 was as old and probably older. If further pressed, I would have to state that there is more evidence to suggest an abrupt arrival of man rather than a gradual process of evolving”. Richard Leakey, world’s foremost paleo-anthropologist, in a PBS documentary, 1990.

“Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations. Fossil evidence of chimpanzee evolution is absent altogether”. (Henry Gee, Nature 2001). It should be noted that Henry Gee is not a Creationist, and does not believe that this lack of fossil evidence points to creation.

Old Earth- The theory of evolution requires the Earth to be millions or billions of years old. However, the dating techniques used to date the Earth rely on assumptions. There is other evidence to suggest that the Earth is much younger than billions of years old.

Geological column- Is the geological column rock-solid evidence for evolution? Dr Gary Parker in his book “Creation facts of Life” suggests that the different strata of the geological column represent different ecological niches that were washed into sediments during a global flood. In his book he says:- “Thus, a walk through the Grand Canyon, then, is not like a walk through evolutionary time; instead it’s like a walk from the bottom of the ocean, across the tidal zone, over the shore, across the lowlands and into the upland regions”.

“Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy”. Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2,

“The only certainty in this data-poor, imagination-rich, endlessly fascinating field is that there are plenty of surprises left to come”. Michael Lemonick, “How Man Began”, Time, March 14, 1994.

God, Intelligent design and Creation-

“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.” Albert Einstein (Nobel prize for Physics in 1921). Calaprice, Alice: The Quotable Einstein (Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 1996).

“Although a biologist, I must confess I do not understand how life came about… I consider that life only starts at the level of a functional cell. The most primitive cells may require at least several hundred different specific biological macro-molecules. How such already quite complex structures may have come together, remains a mystery to me. The possibility of the existence of a Creator, of God, represents to me a satisfactory solution to this problem.” Werner Arber (Nobel for Medicine in 1978) a quote from Henry Margenau & Ray Abraham Varghese, eds., “Cosmos, Bios, Theos: Scientists Reflect on Science, God and the Origin of the Universe, Life and Homo Sapiens” /LaSalle, IL, USA: Open Court, 1992, p. 142.

“The more we know about the cosmos and evolutionary biology, the more they seem inexplicable without some aspect of [intelligent] design,” Townes asserts. “And for me that inspires faith.” Charles Hard Townes (Nobel prize for Physics in 1964). Greg Easterbrook “Of lasers and prayer” w Science, Vol. 277, 15 August 1997.

“I do not want to believe in God. Therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation leading to evolution.” George Wald (Nobel prize for Medicine in 1967). George Wald, “Frontiers of Modern Biology on Theories of Origin of Life” (New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1972), p. 187.

“When it comes to the origin of life on this earth, there are only two possibilities: Creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years ago, but that leads us only to one other conclusion: that of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance.” George Wald (Nobel prize for Medicine in 1967).

“An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that, in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle.” Francis Crick, [Crick received a Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA.] Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature (1981), p. 88.

“I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science.” Rocket scientist Wernher von Braun as quoted by James Perloff, Tornado in a Junkyard (Arlington, Massachusetts: Refuge Books, 1999), p. 253.

“The irony is devastating. The main purpose of Darwinism was to drive every last trace of an incredible God from biology. But the theory replaces God with an even more incredible deity - omnipotent chance.” T. Rosazak, “Unfinished Animal”, 1975, p. 101-102.

The famous Harvard palaeontologist George Gayford Simpson summarized the result of evolution as “man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind”. This phrase neatly sums up the process of evolution as taught in most Schools and Universities across the World.

Although Darwin is generally thought of as the originator of a theory of evolution that has become the backbone of today’s theory, many such theories existed before Darwin’s time (Green, Stout and Taylor, 1990). In fact, Thales of Miletus (640 to 546 B.C) over 2000 years ago proposed that water developed into other elements and these elements developed into plants, then into simple animals and finally into more complex animals like man (Thompson, 1981).

Since that time evolutionary concepts were handed down through Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristostotle (Sunderland, 1998). Darwin’s grandfather Erasmus Darwin assembled a surprisingly modern list of arguments in favour of evolution, although Charles Darwin does not give his grandfather recognition in his own work (Sunderland, 1998).

Current beliefs in evolution are built up on data from a range of sources (Green, Stout and Taylor, 1990) such as comparative embryology or embryonic recapitulation, fossil evidence, the order of fossils in the geological column, homology in anatomical structures, proteins and DNA sequences, knowledge of mutations in DNA etc.

However, those who believe in Creation may argue that some of these factors merely point to intelligent design and comparative embryology or embryonic recapitulation has been widely discredited.

Current theory of evolution. The following account of evolution is taken from the book ?Dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals? by Dr Michael Benton.

According to the Theory of evolution, life begins in the early seas also know as the primordial broth. This spontaneous appearance of complex living cells is also know as Abiogenesis.

About 3,500 million years ago single celled organisms (e.g. bacteria) were though to have arisen, although there is no sound scientific explanation of how this could have happened. These first bacteria these must have given rise to the first protozoa.
Scientists consider the moment at which multi-celled animals (or metazoa), evolved from the protozoan (e.g. organism such as amoebae) to be one of the turning points in the history of life on Earth, and to have occurred about 700 million years ago.

About 700 million years ago the first jellyfish and worms developed.

About 570 million years ago the first fishes, the trilobites developed followed by the first nautiloids and corals 65 million years later.
The first land plants were thought to have developed about 438 million years ago.

About 408 million years ago the first amphibians, insects and spiders were thought to have developed.
The amphibians were thought to develop into the reptiles about 360 million years ago.
From the reptiles apparently the first mammals and dinosaurs developed about 245 million years ago.
Birds were also thought to have developed from reptiles about 208 million years ago.

About 144 million years ago it is thought that the reptiles died out and the first modern snakes and mammals apparently made their appearance.

About 66 million years ago, mammals apparently spread rapidly and the first owls, shrews and hedgehogs developed.

About 58 million years ago the first dogs, cats, rabbits, elephants and horse apparently followed by the first deer, monkeys, pigs and rhinoceros about 37 million years ago.

About 24 million years ago many new mammals apparently appeared, including mice, rats and apes.

About 5 million years ago Australopithecus apparently appeared with the first cattle and sheep. Finally we get the appearance of modern man.

This ongoing process, according to the theory of evolution, has led to all life as we know it on our planet, including species that are now extinct, and this view is supported by the interpretation commonly given to the fossils in the geological column.

This whole process according to the theory of evolution has involved the selection of favourable characteristics (natural selection) and mutation is generally considered the way in which new gene sequences give rise to new characteristics.

Darwin’s theory of natural selection. Darwin and Wallace proposed that natural selection was the mechanism that new species arise from pre-existing species (Green, Stout and Taylor, 1990). This hypothesis / theory is based on three observations and two deductions which may be summarised as follows:-

The remainder of this page is taken with kind permission from the Biblical Creation Society website and an article entitled “Darwinism and Neodarwinism in evolutionary change”, by David J. Tyler and Arthur J. Jones (1992).

Observation 1: Offspring outnumber parents. Sometimes this is marginally the case - as when a pair of birds raise just one chick per year - but after three years, the observation becomes true. Many more animals produce large numbers of offspring - consider, for example, the number of caterpillars coming from a cabbage white butterfly, or reflect on the population of tadpoles appearing in the local pond.

Observation 2: Species numbers remain approximately constant. There are good years and bad years for all the animals we know - but we are not being overrun by robins or cabbage white butterflies or frogs. These observations lead to an:

Deduction: Observations 1 and 2 suggest that there is a struggle for survival. Some offspring die without descendants of their own. There are losers in the game of life.

Observation 3: Individuals differ in small ways, and many of these differences are inherited from parents. The observation applies to people, as we can confirm by looking at parents and children known to us. In fact, it applies to all organisms - wherever we can look closely enough.

Conclusion: Those individuals whose variations adapt them to their environment will be the most likely to survive and reproduce. This conclusion is commonly described as the principle of natural selection.

Evolution or Ecology- The above proposal of natural selection is non-controversial and not particularly complex to understand. Only after this point in the argument comes a divergence of view: some think that the above analysis is a theory of origins, whereas others consider it a theory of ecology. Darwinists take the former view, asserting that we have here a sufficient explanation of the origin of all biological species. Non-Darwinists, including creationists, are not convinced. They argue that crucial evidences relevant to any theory of origins are totally lacking.

The points made so far can all be illustrated by reference to one of the classic examples of natural selection: the Peppered Moth. Like all moths, this particular species lays numerous eggs which develop into large numbers of caterpillars (observation 1). Over the years, the Peppered Moth has maintained its population level reasonably well (observation 2) which implies that predation and death are important factors affecting overall numbers. The Moth has a variable appearance and exists in three forms: dark-coloured, light and speckled. These differences are inherited from parents (observation 3). The conclusion, that `those individuals whose variations adapt them to their environment will be the most likely to survive and reproduce’ , has been tested by observations of predation. In environments where dark surfaces predominated, the light-coloured moths were found more easily by birds and eaten. In such cases, the population came to be dominated by the dark form. This was natural selection in action. Conversely, in environments where there was a dominance of light surfaces, the light form was more numerous. Changes in the environment over time, due to the effects of industrial pollution, resulted in changes in the relative numbers of light and dark forms.

The conclusion is interpreted in different ways: Darwinists hail the Peppered Moth as an important example of evolution by natural selection; non-Darwinists accept that natural selection of an inherited characteristic is occurring, but resist the thought that this has any bearing on the origin or ancestry of the Peppered Moth. The non-Darwinian argues that adaptation potential is a necessary component of any theory of ecology, where populations respond in some way to their environment. Why is this part of a theory of ecology? It is related to the fact that the environment continually changes. If organisms are to be robust, with some powers of endurance through the generations, there must be some `oscillation potential’ . This is exactly what we see in the Peppered Moth (Tyler D. and Jones A., 1992).

Theory of ecology into theory of origins- What more is needed to make a theory of ecology into a theory of origins? Three assumptions are required, and it is vitally important for science that the assumptions be recognised and subjected to investigation.

Assumption 1
Appropriate variations constantly arise, introducing fresh information to the genetic composition of organisms. Observable variations which do not affect genetic information are not appropriate for evolutionary theory.

Assumption 2
There is no limit to the succession of variations that can occur, so that major evolutionary transformations are possible.

Assumption 3
Natural selection is the mechanism for preserving novel adaptive variations. Predation removes information represented by prey; extinction erases genetic information permanently; and reproduction transmits information to the next generation. The assumption is that selective forces act to preserve new information in survivors.

Assumptions 1 and 2 relate to the character of the variations that occur, allowing the possibility for new information to be introduced to an organism, and assumption 3 is concerned with the preservation of that new information.

These assumptions are necessary to convert the non-Darwinian theory of ecology into a Darwinian theory of origins. Consequently, only evidence for these assumptions can count as evidence for evolution. This requirement for proof is one that must be addressed by Darwinists if they are to persist in describing their theory as a scientific approach to the study of origins. (Tyler D. and Jones A., 1992).

Darwinism in crisis. Darwinism went through a crisis in the early part of the Twentieth Century, because the science of genetics was developing, and it appeared to explain away most, if not all, of Darwin’s evidences of variation. Observed variations due to artificial selection, such as in dogs or pigeons, are irrelevant to evolutionary change, as no new information is introduced and the range of variation is limited. The three assumptions appeared to be groundless. Some biologists abandoned Darwinism and embarked on a quest for alternative explanations (Tyler D. and Jones A., 1992).

Neo Darwinism- In the 1930s, leading geneticists found a way of preserving the theory of evolution by natural selection. They discovered that a variety of errors occurred in the copying of genetic information during reproduction. These errors are known as mutations. The 3 assumptions were revived: the blending of Darwinism with genetics became known as neo-Darwinism. It is our task to enquire whether these assumptions can now be regarded as proved (Tyler D. and Jones A., 1992)…

Enormous effort has been devoted to researching this area, partly to elucidate the mechanisms of evolution, and partly to explore the potential for speeding up evolutionary change to breed plants and animals with characteristics suitable for commercial exploitation. As a result, we know a great deal about different types of mutation, and the changes they bring to organisms.

Very little attention has been given to the three Darwinistic assumptions! In most cases, they have been assumed as part of the framework of knowledge of the researcher. Consequently, very little testing of the theory has taken place. Although this may seem surprising to those outside science, it is actually a very common phenomenon. Much scientific research takes place in the context of particular presuppositions, and it is rare for the foundations to be tested in formal ways.

Nevertheless, it is possible to make some assessment of the assumptions of Darwinism and neo-Darwinism. The key word in Assumption 1 is appropriate' . The implication is that some mutations will be beneficial to the organism. Unfortunately for the theory, this is not confirmed. The list of harmful mutations is long; the list of beneficial mutations is short - and questionable! In human beings, known mutations are all harmful. One case - that of sickle cell anaemia - provides some protection against malaria. However, apart from that one asset, the condition is not recommended. Sickle cell anaemia represents an assault on the way blood cells work. There is one beneficial effect, but this is counteracted by harm done to the human physiology system. A vivid demonstration of this claim has come from observations of humans (with sickle cell anaemia) operating under extreme conditions, where some have been known to collapse and die. All examples of supposedly beneficial mutations’ fit the general pattern: the trend is downward. Organisms experience the process of death by instalment' . Our conclusion is this: the first Darwinistic assumption is retained, not by scientific evidence, but by appealing to chance over extended periods of time - given long enough, favourable mutations must occur’ .

The second assumption: that `there is no limit to the succession of variations that can occur’, is similarly safeguarded only by an appeal to theory and long periods of time. No scientific investigation has ever confirmed the assumption, and all the substantial evidence suggests the contrary. One reason is that all organs of animals and plants are extraordinarily complex, and are composed of many interrelated elements. Whether we think of the eye, the ear, the nose, or any part of the body - a few mutations can be allowed, but too many leads to the complete loss of function. The mysterious complexity of living things is an indicator that unlimited variation is not possible.

We come to assumption 3: `natural selection is the mechanism for preserving novel adaptive variations’ . There is no doubt that natural selection can be understood as a force in ecology: moulding organisms according to their innate potential for variation. It can lead to the emergence of new species. The problem for neo-Darwinists is that not a single case can be identified where new genetic information has been demonstrably preserved by natural selection. All the examples are of oscillation, with no loss or gain of information.

You may have been impressed by seeing computer models of evolutionary variations - but they are all committed to these assumptions. It is relatively easy to create a theoretical world which evolves according to the rules and assumptions of neo-Darwinism. The key question is: does this theoretical world adequately represent the real world? The only way to find out is to subject the theory to scientific investigation - and the evidence shows grave mismatches between this theory and reality. (Tyler D. and Jones A., 1992).

Conclusions. So where does this discussion leave us? The dominant explanation of origins rests, not on a scientific foundation, but on philosophical and metaphysical presuppositions. What about the scientific evidences? Those that relate to the observed variations in living things are consistent with the teaching of the Bible: that God created all the different kinds of living thing, and that they reproduce after their own kind. A good foundation for the science of biology is to be found here. The concept of a created kind maintains the existence of discontinuities between the life-forms that emerged from the hand of God, and at the same time allows for limited variation. The concept of a created kind leads to the recognition of intelligent design in the way organisms are made. A creationist biology will develop tools - which are sadly lacking from the repertoire of contemporary biologists - that assist in these studies of discontinuity and design. (Tyler D. and Jones A., 1992).

God Bless

The Boston Globe, May 30, 2000, Tuesday, Pg. E1
A LITTLE FISH CHALLENGES A GIANT OF SCIENCE

By Fred Heeren, GLOBE CORRESPONDENT

CHENGJIANG, China The fish-like creature was hardly more than an inch long, but its discovery in the rocks of southern China was a big deal. The 530million year old fossil, dubbed Haikouella, had the barest beginning of a spinal cord, making it the oldest animal ever found whose body shape resembled modern vertebrates.

In the Nature article announcing his latest findings, JunYuan Chen and his colleagues reported dryly that the ancient fish “will add to the debate on the evolutionary transition from invertebrate to vertebrate.” But the new fossils have become nothing less than a challenge to the theory of evolution in the hands of Chen, a professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology. Chen argued that the emergence of such a sophisticated creature at so early a date shows that modern life forms burst on the scene suddenly, rather than through any gradual process.

According to Chen, the conventional forces of evolution can’t account for the speed, the breadth, and onetime nature of “the Cambrian explosion,” a geologic moment more than 500 million years ago when virtually all the major animal groups first appear in the fossil record.

Rather than Charles Darwin’s familiar notion of survival of the fittest, Chen said he believes scientists should focus on the possibility that a unique harmony between forms of life allowed complex organisms to emerge. If all we have to depend upon is chance and competition, the conventional forces of evolution, Chen said, “then complex, highly evolved life, such as the human, has no reason to appear.”

The debate over Haikouella casts Western scientists in the unlikely role of defending themselves against charges of ideological blindness from scientists in Communist China. Chinese officials argue that the theory of evolution is so politically charged in the West that researchers are reluctant to admit shortcomings for fear of giving comfort to those who believe in a biblical creation.

“Evolution is facing an extremely harsh challenge,” declared the Communist Party’s Guang Ming Daily last December in describing the fossils in southern China. “In the beginning, Darwinian evolution was a scientific theory. . . . In fact, evolution eventually changed into a religion.” Taunts from the Communist Party wouldn’t carry much sting, however, if some Western scientists weren’t also concerned about weaknesses in socalled neoDarwinism, the dominant view of evolution over the last 50 years.

“NeoDarwinism is dead,” said Eric Davidson, a geneticist and textbook writer at the California Institute of Technology. He joined a recent gathering of 60 scientists from around the world near Chengjiang, where Chen had found his first impressions of Haikouella five years ago.

But most Westerners at Chen’s conference came to praise Darwin, not to bury him. The idea that neoDarwinism is missing something fundamental about evolution is as scandalous to Americans as it is basic to the Chinese.

Despite their misgivings about Chen’s “harmony” proposal a mysterious mix of scientific caution, Chinese philosophy, and a decidedly nonWestern lack of concern for Darwinian orthodoxy Western scientists have no choice but to go to China to learn about the emergence of animal body plans, including that of humans.

Virtually all of today’s living phyla or major animal groups make their first impressions in the geologic period known as the Cambrian. And Chengjiang, in the southern province of Yunnan, contains the oldest and best preserved Cambrian fossils in the world. JunYuan Chen has coauthored half of all the papers on the Chengjiang fauna.

Chen’s discovery of the earliest creature with a primitive nervous system, called a chordate, is, for him, but one more piece in a puzzle that looks less and less like the conventional picture of evolution through natural selection.

For Western paleontologists, Haikouella looks like a breakthrough for understanding the origin of the human lineage.

“It proves that the direct ancestor of mankind already existed in the time of the Cambrian explosion,” said German paleontologist Michael Steiner.

“Sort of instinctively, I felt I should go and pay homage to this animal,” said another scientist at the conference, Nicholas Holland, an authority on primitive chordates at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego. “It’s the earliest known chordate ancestor. This is going to be page one, two, three and four of vertebrate texts.”

Chen enjoys seeing his fossils get the attention. But to him, the big story is not that he has discovered our earliest traceable ancestor but that the Cambrian explosion of new body plans is proving to be real, not an illusion produced by an incomplete fossil record.

Because new animal groups did not continue to appear after the Cambrian explosion 530 million years ago, he believes that a unique kind of evolution was going on in Cambrian seas. And, because his years of examining rocks from before the Cambrian period has not turned up viable ancestors for the Cambrian animal groups, he concludes that their evolution must have happened quickly, within a mere 2 or 3 million years.

According to Chen, the two main forces of evolution espoused by neoDarwinism, natural selection (“survival of the fittest”) and random genetic mutation, cannot account for the sudden emergence of so many new genetic forms.

“Harmony can be a driving force [of evolution], too,” Chen proposed at the Chengjiang conference.

As if to underscore the abruptness of Haikouella’s place in the fossil record, Chen pointed out the features that make Haikouella look so much more advanced than expected for an early Cambrian animal.

Biologists had been expecting to see something that would look like a primitive ancestor to the middle Cambrian animal called Pikaia, formerly promoted as the world’s earliest chordate. Rather than finding evidence that Pikaia had a lesscomplex ancestor, Chen instead found a chordate that already displayed many vertebrate characteristics 15 million years earlier.

And some of the 305 fossil specimens Chen’s team has recovered are so well preserved that paleontologists practically swoon over them.

“They’re almost like a photograph of the anatomy of the animals,” said French paleontologist Philippe Janvier.

But all this newfound clarity only adds to the larger problem, framed succinctly by Holland of Scripps Institution: “Where the hell are you going to get an animal like that?” In his view, Haikouella’s high level of development makes it more difficult to explain the evolutionary steps that produced it.

The place to find earlier steps, of course, should be the Precambrian rocks that are more than 543 million years old. Darwin wrote that, if his theory is true, then the world must have been swarming with the ancestors of the Cambrian critters during long ages before them. He expected future generations to find them.

Today, paleontologists still lack viable ancestors for the Cambrian’s 40 or more animal phyla. Most researchers explain this by assuming that Precambrian animals were simply too small or too soft to leave a fossil record, or that conditions were unfavorable to fossilization.

But, for the last three years, Chen’s discoveries at Precambrian fossil sites with Taiwanese biologist ChiaWei Li have magnified this mystery. While sifting through the debris of a phosphate mining site, Chen and Li eventually discovered the earliest clear fossils of multicellular animals. They found sponges and tiny sponge embryos by the thousands but nothing resembling the fishlike Haikouella or forerunners of other Cambrian creatures, such as trilobites.

When word of the discovery got out, Chen and Li suddenly found themselves in the international spotlight. But when the hoopla was over and their discovery established, they wondered what evolutionary problems they had actually solved.

In fact, the pair had failed to find any recognizable body plans showing steps along the way toward the complex Cambrian animals, with their legs, antennae, eyes and other features.

What they had actually proved was that phosphate is fully capable of preserving whatever animals may have lived there in Precambrian times. Because they found sponges and sponge embryos in abundance, researchers are no longer so confident that Precambrian animals were too soft or too small to be preserved.

“I think this is a major mystery in paleontology,” Chen said. “Before the Cambrian, we should see a number of steps differentiation of cells, differentiation of tissue, of dorsal and ventral, right and left. But we don’t have strong evidence for any of these.”

Taiwanese biologist Li was also direct: “No evolution theory can explain these kinds of phenomena.”

In Chen’s view, his evidence supports a history of life that runs opposite to the standard evolutionary tree diagrams, a progression he calls topdown evolution.

In the most published diagram in the history of evolutionary biology, Darwin illustrated what became the standard view of how new taxa, or animal categories, evolve. Beginning with small variations, evolving animals diverge farther from the original ancestor, eventually becoming new species, then new genera, new families, and the divergence continues until the highest taxa are reached, which are separated from one another by the greatest differences.

But the fossil record shows that story is not true, according to Chen. The differences appear dramatically in the early days, instead of coming at the top. Chen suggested that biologists need to seek new mechanisms to explain these evolutionary leaps.

Wherever the first chordates came from, Nicholas Holland of Scripps agreed that science should now take seriously the possibility that evolution can occur in relatively quick jumps.

That still leaves a great divide between Chen, Li and the Chinese media on one side and the mainstream Western view, in which scientists are reluctant to admit that the Cambrian explosion poses a difficult challenge.

But conferences such as the one in Chengjiang may be changing some views. One of the symposium organizers, paleontologist David Bottjer of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, said he disagrees with the idea of rapid evolution, but he conceded, “The Cambrian Explosion is going to tell us something different about evolution, in the sense that it’s not the same story that we have always been taught.”

Zz Top - Tube Snake Boogie Lyrics

I got a girl she lives cross town,
She?s the one that really gets down.
When she boogie,
She do the tube snake boogie.
Well now boogie little baby,
Boogie woogie all night long.

I got a girl she lives on the block,
She kinda funky with her pink and black socks.
She likes to boogie,
She do the tube snake boogie.
Well now boogie woogie baby,
Boogie woogie all night long.

I got a girl, she lives on the hill.
She won?t do it but her sister will,
When she boogie,
She do the tube snake boogie.
Well now boogie little baby,
Boogie woogie all night long.
Blow your top blow your top blow your top.

[quote]rancho wrote:
Wherever the first chordates came from, Nicholas Holland of Scripps agreed that science should now take seriously the possibility that evolution can occur in relatively quick jumps.
[/quote]

Science does, it’s called punctuated equilibrium. I would say this article is out of date.

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
Can we expect scientific statements made in the Bible to be accurate?

The Bible says, “Thy word is true from the beginning.” Psalm 119:160. “The Spirit . . . will guide you into all truth.” John 16:13.

Answer: Yes, the Bible is true. The Holy Spirit, who guided the Bible writers, always speaks the truth. Here are a few Bible statements that have been confirmed by science:

A. “He . . . hangeth the earth upon nothing.” Job 26:7. This scientific fact is from Job, the Bible’s oldest book.
B. “He . . . sitteth upon the circle of the earth.” Isaiah 40:22. The Bible said the earth is round centuries before man found out.
C. “To make the weight for the winds.” Job 28:25. Long before scientists knew, God said air has weight.
D. “By Him [Jesus] all things consist.” Colossians 1:17. The word “consist” here literally means “hold together” or “cohere.” Many Bible translations put it “hold together.” This is the answer to the nuclear physicists’ worrisome question about the atom. The real mystery of the atom does not involve its benumbing mega-power, but rather, “Why doesn’t the atom fly apart?” Scientific knowledge says it should, but it doesn’t. Some scientists are wondering what puzzling power, completely unknown to them, is holding it together. The Bible says that mysterious power is the Creator, God Himself.
[/quote]

Wow, okay. The Bible can’t figure out that a bat is not a bird, snakes don’t eat dust and that insects have six legs, yet you say it makes accurate scientific statements?

Then you claim that people back then were too stupid to understand the concept of reflection (the moon), yet particle physics was thrown in for the hell of it?

Just spent an HOUR reading posts ugh.

Anyway a major point with the creationists seem to be their inability to accept DNA being passed down from generation to generation can change over time.

You want evidence of a creature turning into another creature. Well it simply doesn’t work that way.

When a creature is in an environment there will be variation between members of thr species. You’re different from your neighbours and people in other countries for example. If an environmental factor become advantageous, for example an animal with more fur to survive the cold. The selection pressure will be pushing towards an animal with more fur. The individuals with more fur as a random variation will tend to survive better. As DNA is passed on from generation to generation, their offspring will tend to have more fur than offspring of a less furry individual. So in this manner, over MILLIONS of generation the creature slowly evolves until eventually it is so different from the original as to be a whole new species.

When you look at it on as large a timescale as life on Earth, it is easy to see how all animals who seem perfectly adapted for their own little niches in their environments, got that way. There was no intelligent force (mother nature) adapting them like magic, it was simply a selection pressure extending through millions of generations that allowed only the fittest and most suited creatures to survive. It may not be a theory that is provable to the extent it can be called fact, but then again almost nothing we know can. Everything is still pretty much ‘just a theory’ as the creationists love to say. The facts that we have however prove beyond reasonable doubt that evolution is true, though we cannot explain every single minute aspect of it.

Evolution can be clearly seen in the modern world. Bacteria replicate at such a rate that we can see mini-evolution due to the sheer number of generations which exist in a short space of time. Bacteria that resist antibiotics, survive better than their counterparts, so only they survive to pass on their genes. Eventually all the bacteria are resistant becuase those that weren’t were wiped out. This simple example shows evolution in action, it doesn’t prove how we came from single celled organisms exactly but it proves the mechanism which tufflouds is so fond of, does exist.

The burden of proof is not on us, the burden of proof must always lie on both sides of the fence and whilst science is pushing towards greater knowledge and understanding of our universe, religious closed minded people like yourself are still stuck, trying to go backwards. “You can’t explain it therefore God must have done it” logic just doesn’t wash with me.

[quote]epote wrote:
let me pull out a good 'ol Popper from the philosophy bag of all things spectacular:

tuffloud: what would it take for creationism to be proven wrong?[/quote]

Even if God came down from heaven to him and said that evolution was true, he would think it was the Devil trying to trick him!

Well common sense can be wrong. Bust a dish on the floor and look at the result. You have many irregular shaped pieces scattered in a unique pattern all across the room (don’t forget the itty bitty pieces). Their exact shapes and spatial realtions to each other are very complex, as defined by the amount of information needed to describe the system compared to the amount of information actually in the system. Yet it came about randomly. Now just carefully set a dish down on the floor. The system is very simple now, easy to describe. It was the “designed” system, not the complex one.

Here’s another example. Say you’re strolling down the road (tra la la la la) and you pick up two objects. One is a rock, oddly shaped, mottled color, nonuniform material and density, a normal rock. To describe it precisely and accurately would take a lot of information. The other object is a ball bearing. It can be described as a steel sphere, .34" in diameter. With that information, it can be reproduced exactly. Now, which is the result of nature and which the result of intelligent design?

Well, if you write something stupid on a test, what do you expect? If your views say that blacks are arrested more often for drugs because they do more drugs, that would be wrong, they do less drugs than whites. If you put that on a test, you get points off, because it is incorrect. Why is this a surprise? In Physics class, a student stated that he did not believe the greenhouse effect was true. After chuckling, the professor said that if anyone could show the physics involved in it was wrong, he would give them an A in the class, no more tests or anything. No one did.

Ummm, where is this?

[quote]So using the placebo effect again as an example, science doesn’t understand the biochemical, neurological, or endocrine processes that produce the outcome, and yet, they use that as the basis to determine if a certain medication is effective or not. So essentially, they use a process that they don’t understand as a baseline to study certain medications. That is so unscientific I can’t even stand it. The result is that yearly thousands of people die from FDA approved, physician prescribed, pharmacists reviewed, and properly administered prescription medications. That is what occurs when you base science on a series of assumptions instead of proven facts.
[/quote]

Actually that occurs because of FDA/Pharmaceutical company canoodling. We don’t completely understand quantum physics, yet it works. Science does not prove things as facts, it can only disprove. The prove something universally true, you would have to perform experiments in every possible situation, which would take an awfully long time.

Smart-ass on That’s better than killing or torturing people who don’t agree with a paradigm! Smart ass off

[quote]Talk about astounding!
Ask people who have viewed an identical event to each give a report of what happened. They will differ widely and will virtually always contradict each other in some way. Yet the Bible, penned by 40 writers over a 1,500-year period, reads as if written by one great mind. And, indeed, it was: “Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21. The Holy Ghost “moved” them all. He is the real Bible Author. The four Gospels do sometimes differ in the way they report the same event, but they complement each other.
[/quote]

They complement each other? Are you sure? Was there one angel at Jesus’s tomb or two? And did only Magdalene come to the tomb? Or did Mary come as well? Or did Salome come also? Matthew says there were nine beatitudes at the Sermon on the Mount. Luke says there were five. Was Judas hanged or did he die by “falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.” When Jesus died, did he say “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” , “Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit.” or “It is finished.”? Was Jesus robe red or purple at his trial?

[quote]
Why should 80% of the people that believe in God in this country have completly change for the rest? You need to do a little research on what this country was founded on in the first place. [/quote]

Well, if 80% of the people in this country believed the earth were flat, should we change for them? Idiotic statements are still idiotic no matter how many agree with them.

If were going to teach a religious theory (and intelligent design and creationism are religious) in science, why not let health class and chemisty be taught in church? That’s fair, right? Or why not extend the intelligent designer “theory” to everything?

Intelligent Pathology: You’re sick because God is punishing you, or there’s a demon making you sick, pick one.

Intelligent Gravity: You fall back to the Earth, because the Earth is your home and God wants you to stay there.

Intelligent Language: Tower of Babel, 'nuff said

Intelligent Mathematics: 2+2=4 because God said so.

Intelligent Sociology: Bad things happen around the world because God is constantly testing people, or he has a sense of humor, or maybe he just works in mysterious ways.

Same for the Koran

Then why do we need to take into account the fact that people spoke differently back then, which allows you to try and wiggle out of errors in the Bible? If it’s 100% up to date, there should be no errors and it should be written in modern English.

Now for those who keep saying “You don’t have a fossil for it, so evolution is false, blah blah, etc.” we haven’t found everything yet. Okay, assuming the crust is 6 miles thick on average, and that the Earth is a perfect sphere (volume of a oblate spheroid would be a pain in the ass) that gives scientists a grand total of 591,629,871.1 cubic miles of dirt and stone to look through. So pardon them if there was something they may have missed!

Although I put no belief in it I recognize that the Bible is a spiritual book for many people. Why do Christians want to be something else? You wouldn’t consult the Bible for financial advice (Jesus said not to save your money Mat 6:19-20), why look at it for the study of biology? If you want to know how to go to heaven, check the Bible. If you want to know how the heavens go, check an astrophysicist.

Using the Bible for scientific purposes is like using a ball peen hammer to perform brain surgery.

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
rancho wrote:
Wherever the first chordates came from, Nicholas Holland of Scripps agreed that science should now take seriously the possibility that evolution can occur in relatively quick jumps.

Science does, it’s called punctuated equilibrium. I would say this article is out of date.

[/quote]

Jeffrey S. Levinton a Neo- Darwinist of the State University of New York at Stony Brook is one of the strongest critics of punctuated equilibrium. He says Eldredge and Gould remind him of a Scandinavian aphorism: “People come crashing through open doors.” How, for example, can the theory be tested when the formation of species cannot be clearly recognized in the fossil record? Levinton concludes, “The totality of the evidence makes it a theory not worth following up.” Antoni Hoffman of the Institute of Paleobiology in Warsaw, who has written a book aimed at refuting punctuated equflibrium. Accuses proponents of the theory of creating a moving target.

According to Hoffman’s analysis, some versions of the theory claim merely that evolution varies in speed-which is undisputedly Later versions claim that gradual change is nonexistent or negligible; that, Hoffman maintains, is "blatantly false.’ In 1987 Peter R. Sheldon then at Trinity College in Dublin, seemed to score a direct hit against punctuated equilibrium when he reported finding that eight types of trilobite had each evolved gradually over a three-million year interval during the Ordovician period, more than 440 million years ago.

The finding prompted John Maynard Smith of the University of Sussex to comment, “We can forget about new paradigms and the death of neo-Darwinism.” However, the arguments persist and each side continues to collect evidence. For example, Adrian M. Lister of the University of Cambridge reported in Nature recently that red deer on the island of Jersey underwent a six-fold reduction in their body weight in less than 6,000 years, suggesting that rapid evolution can indeed occur under some conditions.

Gould thinks Sheldon’s interpretation of the trilobite record is weak, yet he maintains that paleontologists can discern the formation of new species in the fossil record through comparisons with living species. He admits that the evidence is not yet in and suggests that the technical difficulty of finding adequate data, in the form of well-preserved fossils from undisturbed sedimentary beds, has made for slow progress. While conceding that rapid change is not universal, Gould declares that he and Eldredge will be proved right if rapid species formation and stasis do turn out to dominate in the fossil record

[quote]tuffloud wrote:
vroom wrote:
tuff,

All you are doing is unfuriating people and getting them to reject all that you stand for.

You realize that right?

Why don’t you try having a discussion about something instead of preaching to those that don’t want to be preached to.

Chump.

If any of you that are true Christians out there that have been regularly reading this thread, have I made you reject anything? Please post and let us know.

[/quote]

No but I believe you can not win this.