For someone with no powerlifting aspirations who just wants to build leg strength, would deficit trap bar deadlifts be a decent substitute for traditional squats?
What are the weaknesses in this approach and what assistance work would be necessary to avoid imbalances?
Thank you.
My question is why wouldn’t you want to squat? Is there some reason you are trying to avoid it? Trap bar deadlifts are a good exercise but different mechanics than squat - they work similar musculature but aren’t the same. Maybe I can help more if I understand why squats are being avoided.
This is a million dollar question. Everyone I know who low bar squats heavy and with any frequency has some sort of bicep pain…no one that I know really understands what is going on there unfortunately. Have you seen a sport physiotherapist or sport massage therapist (who does things like taping and graston or ART) - can help a lot. I also find relief creating traction on the arm with a band tied around something - let the band pull your straight arm out from the socket and hold. Hanging from a pull up position can also help sometimes between sets. Traumeel cream (Traum-care is another name) between workouts and/or finalgon during workouts also can help. I wish I had more answers.
Glad to hear the squats are going well though!
I’ve never been able to get a good position for back squats because of poor posture (shoulders rounded forward). I have enough shoulder ROM to overhead press but can’t hold a bar behind my back. I tried to front squat a few times but never was able to get a good position on those either and didn’t have the wrist flexibility to hold the bar properly, so I’ve been doing trap bar DL’s as my main lowerbody movement until I fix my imbalances. However within the last few days I’ve found some videos on front squatting where the bar is held by gripping wrist straps so I will try that next week.
I’m going to go out on a limb and very cautiously offer a possible solution because it worked for me.
First, stop straight bar squatting for three months or so. I used the SSB. If that’s not an option, I think cross grip front squats might work. Drop any pull-ups as well. Do lots of light hammer curls. After that period, go back to straight bar squats, because your biceps should feel much better. Move your grip way, way out: to the sleeves. I like leaving the pinkie under the bar. Also, focus on pulling your elbows in to your sides and not under the bar, just pulling your shoulderblades in and down. Stop squeezing the bar too. Do this until you can really tighten up your upper back without squeezing the bar or bringing your grip in. Do hammer curls between your sets. After another three months or so you should be able to bring in your grip in a little and even squeeze the bar without pain for heavy sets. Leave pull-ups for another three months or so, and then gradually reintroduce them.
“I also find relief creating traction on the arm with a band tied around something - let the band pull your straight arm out from the socket and hold.”
I actually figured that out myself shortly after writing my last post. What I found to help is setting the bar on the hook at the highest notch on my power rack, putting on straps (because it feels like I’m able to relax my muscles more without really holding on) and just leaning back for about a minute or so. That plus releasing some muscles around my shoulder blades (I got the idea from looking at some trigger point charts) and making Motrin my favorite pre-workout has helped a lot. I should try the band, that might have a different effect.
It was making it hard to bench after squatting the first week and a bit but now it’s manageable, my bench is way ahead of my squat so I don’t mind putting that on the back burner while I get my squat closer to where it should be. It’s weird, at first the pain was only in my forearms but since I started stretching like that it has spread to the back of my shoulders and biceps, more things hurt but much less than before. Physio would probably be good but I’m on a tight budget.
I’m planning to do a meet in January so only squatting with the SSB isn’t really an option, and for some reason it hurts more with the SSB than low bar. I think that my problem is that I have too much tension in my upper back, and with the SSB it forces me to generate even more tension than with a straight bar if you know what I’m saying.
I had a similar problem over a year ago (from high frequency squatting as well) but it was different, it was more like an ache that started in my shoulder when I would start squatting and gradually get worse until my arms were numb with pain and I felt like I wanted to scream. I read some articles by Eric Cressey, he says that it has to do with weak rotator cuff muscles that don’t keep the humerus properly centered. The solution was to do lots of external rotation stuff like rows, chin ups, band pull aparts, etc., I had been doing very little pulling aside from deadlifts at that time. I also switched to SSB squats for about two weeks and that cleared things up, I think the current problem is at least partly due to my rotator cuff muscles being too tight because massaging them with a theracane helps a lot.
Interesting theory. I have been discussing a few ideas with one of my therapists with regards to limited external rotation and the connective tissue impacting the periosteal sheath of the humerus.
Work on increasing your external rotation (both with rot cuff strengthening and ALSO mobility work on the shoulder and thoracic spine to increase actual range) - see if this lowers the pressure on the biceps etc and keep me posted.
Let me know if anything else comes to light - Im interested.
What sort of mobility work do you recommend? As far as strengthening external rotation, I do chin ups/pull ups, barbell rows, band pull aparts, and face pulls (with bands since I train at home). Any other suggestions?
I think my thoracic mobility is actually pretty good but I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to work on it, my shoulders are definitely tight but nothing crazy. I used to grip the bar closer for low bar squats, like index finger on the rings, but when I first started getting shoulder pain I was advised to move my grip out. Adjusting my grip made no difference with regards to pain but it just felt more comfortable and I can still keep my upper back tight so I kept it like that, now I squat with my thumbs on the rings. I could go a bit closer, but I have definitely lost some ROM compared to before. I also don’t do much stretching, probably stretching and releasing my pecs (maybe lats too) would help.
In one article that I read a while back Eric Cressey said that some people are predisposed to these kinds of shoulder issues, part of it has to do with the shape of the scapula. I guess I need to hurry up and get my squat to 700 so that I have an excuse to only train it once a week!
You can add some light snatch with a dowling or a bar (at the most) to open things up - sit 5-10 seconds in the overhead position. Add a few sets at the beginning of your warm up (5 on 5).
If you do want to experiment further with external rotation add some actual mobility work beyond active stuff…pec, pec MINOR, lats, serratus anterior, biceps long head, scapular slide over thoracic cage…you can easily look up how to do self release with a ball or bar on these areas, or see someone who does soft tissue work and can really rip those up. Any specific questions about them as you find tecniques, feel free to ask and I’ll try to help.
Eric Cressey has some interesting ideas - no way to know where you fit until you’ve tried a lot of rehab and mobility work.
Lol yes get it up so we can decrease your frequency!
When you say " sit 5-10 seconds in the overhead position" do you mean at the bottom position of the snatch?
Yeah, I have already started doing a bit of self release stuff with a theracane since my last post. It seems that my pec minor and lats are really tight, after releasing my pec minor and stretching the pecs a bit I already got a noticeable improvement in ROM. On Wednesday I was doing high bar squats but I played around with low bar position during my warm up, there is significantly less tension on the front of my shoulders already. Since then pain/discomfort is down by about 95% but this week is a deload so I’m working with 90% of last week’s intensity and 50% of the volume, hopefully it continues this way through next week.
I’m just joking about wanting to decrease squat frequency, if I didn’t enjoy it I would play croquet instead or maybe join a Zumba class.
Just another question about training frequency: do you think that high frequency is good for hypertrophy phases as well? I hear some people saying that higher frequency is better for hypertophy, but the Norwegian PL team switches to low frequency for hypertrophy instead of training 5-6x/week full body like they normally do.
Also, what about high frequency benching? I’m currently benching 5 days a week, I have had good results benching 3x but that was with an upper/lower split. I need fairly high volume for my bench to go up and my workouts would just be too long with squatting on top of that if I didn’t split it into 5 days. I actually think that 3 days a week works better, but then again bench isn’t really the main focus at the moment.
Ok, so the snatches are definitely a good warmup, I just need to work on my technique/balance because I’m leaning forward so I don’t fall backwards. If Klokov was there he would have punched me in the face!
For the myofascial release stuff what I have been doing is digging into the muscle with my theracane and looking for any spots that hurt. When I find something I maintain pressure until the pain fades away, sometimes the whole muscle starts twitching and then relaxes. I also have lacrosse balls but I prefer the theracane for most stuff, lacrosse balls are good for muscles like piriformis though because you really have to dig deep to get them. Does my method sound appropriate or would you recommend more of an active release type of thing?
I can’t really figure out how to release the long head of the biceps, I don’t feel any trigger points and I looked up some videos but nothing seems to work. Any suggestions on how to deal with it?
Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “scapular slide over thoracic cage”, I can’t find anything by that name but there are many similar exercises. If you could just give a basic description that would help.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to help me out! Much appreciated.
That all sounds great about the release work you’re doing so far.
Biceps can be a tricky one - work on the actual biceps themselves with a ball and then to stretch the long head, do it exactly like you’d stretch your pec, but turn your hand over so the thumb faces the floor…it wont feel as much of a stretch as some other muscles - try not to “cheat” and get movement from somewhere else to seek the “stretch feeling”…the best form I know is put your whole chest and arm on a wall and then keep your whole arm attached to the wall as you peel your chest away.
Scapular slide I’m just referring to anything that moves your shoulderblade over top of your ribcage - some light weight pull aparts where you really focus on sliding your shoulder blades together as much as you can and then go the opposite direction - hands in front of you and slide your blades as far around to the armpits as you can. Go back and forth. Your shoulder blade is an important component of the shoulder girdle and the more and better it slides, the easier time you will have getting those shoulders back in place.
Yes thats good about how you’re releasing things - usually the muscle twitching is a good sign - it’s called a twitch response. Just ensure that the pain is fading as you hold - if it stays steady or increases, you may be on a nerve rather than adhesion - reposition.
Yes to your question about overhead holds - hold at the top. Ideally even hold and slowly pull back further as you hold to really push the ranges. You can even play around with wrist positioning as you hold to gain a bit of a stretch. Experiment.
I love Zumba - I’m considering that next.
My thoughts aren’t that far off from the squat - the more weight you use, the harder and more intense your training is, the less frequency you can use.
For hypertrophy you can go both ways. Pure hypertrophy - if I need to focus on one muscle I’d probably go 2-3 times per week (muscle, not movement) with 3 different focuses (if you use bench as the main movement to improve chest - first day I would do a heavy day - I would do only 8-10 heavy bench sets in the 1-8 rep range, then 2 days later do lower intensity and high volume - 3-4 super sets, 1 isolation and 1 compound - mostly cables and machines in the 10-15 rep range with relatively short rest intervals. 2 days after that I will do a mix of heavy compound (a different compound than I did the first day - incline bench for example) with some body building work with different angles (including special techniques like tempo manip and peak contraction focus - tons of options).
If you are talking about improving a movement (aka bench in the off season) you can train daily but you need to pick a lift - you can’t do everything daily. If squat is your main focus I would only bench 2-3 days per week - one time heavy plus accessories, one time main accessory day (when youre not doing your main competition bench but are going heavier on your accessory bench), and one time body building stuff
Things are looking good right now, heavy squatting and benching (90%+) this morning with zero pain. Last week was a deload so it might be too early to say that things are sorted out, but I will keep up the mobility work and let you know at the end of the week.
For real though, you have earned my respect as a coach. In January I signed up for this experiment with RTS called “Project Momentum” which was a 4 day/week high frequency program with all comp. lifts or variations every day. I dropped out after 3 weeks because the volume was just too much, my back and abs were giving out when I was squatting and I thought I was going to get hurt. Anyway, as you can imagine there were a number of overuse injuries that developed over the course of the 9 week program, and one of the most common ones was shoulder/arm issues from squatting (I still followed what was going on through the facebook group). None of the RTS coaches had any advice that was half as useful as what you have given me in this forum.
My issue is that I’m not able to get the necessary bench volume done in 3 days with my current setup because of time constraints, my workouts would take over 3 hours like that. Do you think it’s better to just do less benching and keep it to 3x/week or continue with what I’m doing?
I got real sick for a week before this training cycle, I lost 5-6lbs. and all my lifts were down. Squat and DL are now beyond where they were before, bench is almost there but I think that the shoulder/arm issue is part of the reason things weren’t going so well. Also, I’m actually dropping the light squatting on Tuesday and prioritizing deadlift on that day (following your earlier recommendations), I plan on doing some singles at 90%+ followed by a bit of volume work and some rack pulls then benching. Not sure if that changes your recommendations but the other option is to cut bench volume and I don’t see that working out for me. I don’t feel that the frequent benching is affecting my ability to recover from squatting/deadlifting, I have a pretty good idea of how much volume I can handle at different levels of intensity.
In your opinion, is total volume (over the course of a microcycle or mesocycle) more important than volume per session?
@Amit_Sapir My current squat is pretty weak considering im 6’2 225 and have long legs. Current max is about 315 and ive been following the 5/3/1 program for about 2 months now. I squat about twice a week. My goal is to squat 405 and then eventually 500. What should I train in my programming; go heavier more often, more volume? I’ve done Smolov about a year ago and got significant gains but did not keep them. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
Ok, so here’s the update:
ZERO forearm pain while squatting and benching. On Tuesday I did deadlift, rack pulls, floor press, and chin-ups. I had some sort of pain in my forearms during deadlifts but nothing to complain about, but it felt different from before. I put on straps to do rack pulls (I pull hook grip, need to save my thumbs) and pain went away. No problem on floor press, pain came back on chin ups so I figured it had something to do with gripping the bar. Released some forearm muscles with a lacrosse ball, problem solved.
Now, I have been having some minor pain in the rear of my left shoulder, but the weird thing is that it first hurt on Monday morning when I woke up after two days off of training. I released the rear deltoid and teres minor first thing in the morning, had no pain from squatting on Monday. There seemed to be a bit of discomfort yesterday and today when I was squatting but I would give it a 2 on a scale of 1-10. Completely goes away when I start warming up for bench. Anyway, it’s very minor and I can work with it, hopefully if I keep releasing and stretching things it will go away. Those snatch holds are a very good warm up, thanks for that tip.
One question: how often should I be releasing all those muscles you listed? The first time there were tons of trigger points, less the next couple times, and now it mostly seems OK. Should I do it just a couple times a week plus daily stretching?
I’m really glad to hear it!