Escalation in Israel

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And if Abraham was a Hebrew, wouldn’t all his descendants be? Including the descendants of Ishmael?
[/quote]

No, because that blessing went with Issac.

Ishmael (who is the father of the Arabs aka Ishmaelites) got his own “blessing”

  1. " will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�¢??

  2. "He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone�¢??s hand against him,
    and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers."

[/quote]

So your contention is that part of the covenant between God and Abraham was that only Isaac’s line would be able to wear the coveted title of “Hebrew”?

102

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I wonder which side of the fence an Arab who has converted to Judaism would take.[/quote]

I’d imagine they would support Israel while supporting an end to expanding settlements. 25% of Israeli citizens are Arabs. Most prefer to live there as a citizen than any Arab country where they are viewed as being at the bottom of the Arab totem poll and generally not welcomed.

103

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And if Abraham was a Hebrew, wouldn’t all his descendants be? Including the descendants of Ishmael?
[/quote]

No, because that blessing went with Issac.

Ishmael (who is the father of the Arabs aka Ishmaelites) got his own “blessing”

  1. " will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�?�¢??

  2. "He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone�?�¢??s hand against him,
    and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers."

[/quote]

So your contention is that part of the covenant between God and Abraham was that only Isaac’s line would be able to wear the coveted title of “Hebrew”?[/quote]

Yes, but it’s not so much a “contention” as what happened, if one accept the Bible. Isaac was Abraham’s heir alone. Ishmael was not.

Has the word been (mis)used in other circumstances? Yes.

104

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us… [/quote]

I know right? It’s like your wife talking back to you in front of your friends. Take her credit cards away for a few weeks and see how she likes that.[/quote]

You make a good point here. The USA is somewhat wed to Israel, and that relationship isn’t going to change unless there is a massive shift in USA foreign policy, and not just in regards to Israel. There would need to be a complete ideological shift to isolationism, which would have dramatic effects on the entire world and should not be taken lightly.

Even if you don’t agree with Israel’s policies, the fact is that the USA cannot just cut and run from the relationship. There would be significant consequences to that, and it would go much farther than the savings from not providing Israel with aid.[/quote]

My post was just a joke. I don’t so much “support Israel” in the sense that most evangelicals and conservatives do. Rather, I support Jewish nationalism(at least in a secular sense) but consider what the state of Israel and Israelis do is their business. Regarding US aid - Israel has a GDP of around 250 billion and receives 2 billion US aid. I don’t imagine it makes a great difference. What I think is more important is sharing intelligence, technology and military and diplomatic cooperation.[/quote]

I agree and I know your post was a joke but it had some real merit. I’ve harped on this with multiple posts here. That there is a strategic importance in having a reliable partner in the ME.

Even if you don’t agree with certain Israeli policy or rhetoric, it’s foolish to believe that the relationship is strictly one-way. There is reciprocation from Israel that is vitally important to maintaining a presence in the ME.

We simply can’t get that level of cooperation from anyone else in the region, as those countries neither have the ability or will to fill the vacuum that would be created by disengaging with Israel.

105

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I wonder which side of the fence an Arab who has converted to Judaism would take.[/quote]

I’d imagine they would support Israel while supporting an end to expanding settlements. 25% of Israeli citizens are Arabs. Most prefer to live there as a citizen than any Arab country where they are viewed as being at the bottom of the Arab totem poll and generally not welcomed.[/quote]

I was speaking literally, about the fence shown in Pitt’s video.

The soldiers said that one side was for Arabs, the other for Jews. My question was, would the IDF soldiers let an Arab who was also a Jew (either by conversion or by birth, as many Sephardim are) pass on the “good” side of the fence?

And how would he prove his Jewishness? By wearing “Jewish clothing” as opposed to a jellabiya? By showing his brit milah (circumcision) certificate? Or would the soldiers just ask him to pronounce the word “shibboleth”?

106

1017×829 254 KB

It is strange the lack of coverage…

This is the headline story on CNN right now. This ‘article’ is amazingly retarded…

107

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I wonder which side of the fence an Arab who has converted to Judaism would take.[/quote]

I’d imagine they would support Israel while supporting an end to expanding settlements. 25% of Israeli citizens are Arabs. Most prefer to live there as a citizen than any Arab country where they are viewed as being at the bottom of the Arab totem poll and generally not welcomed.[/quote]

I was speaking literally, about the fence shown in Pitt’s video.

The soldiers said that one side was for Arabs, the other for Jews. My question was, would the IDF soldiers let an Arab who was also a Jew (either by conversion or by birth, as many Sephardim are) pass on the “good” side of the fence?

And how would he prove his Jewishness? By wearing “Jewish clothing” as opposed to a jellabiya? By showing his brit milah (circumcision) certificate? Or would the soldiers just ask him to pronounce the word “shibboleth”?[/quote]

Oh, sorry about that. I just read your post and not what it was responding to. I think they would be granted access. Conversion to Judaism is no joke. Aren’t Jews registered somewhere?

Israel isn’t all white European Jews. There are a lot with the traditional Semitic look, and don’t all that different from Arabs (especially those from the Levant). So I don’t think the IDF could even credibly discern who is and isn’t a Jew by looks alone.

108

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And if Abraham was a Hebrew, wouldn’t all his descendants be? Including the descendants of Ishmael?
[/quote]

No, because that blessing went with Issac.

Ishmael (who is the father of the Arabs aka Ishmaelites) got his own “blessing”

  1. " will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�??�??�??�??�?�¢??

  2. "He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone�??�??�??�??�?�¢??s hand against him,
    and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers."

[/quote]

So your contention is that part of the covenant between God and Abraham was that only Isaac’s line would be able to wear the coveted title of “Hebrew”?[/quote]

Yes, but it’s not so much a “contention” as what happened, if one accept the Bible. Isaac was Abraham’s heir alone. Ishmael was not.

Has the word been (mis)used in other circumstances? Yes.
[/quote]

Well, we all make contentions here. We are, after all, talking about a nation whose name means “contends with God”. There is nothing about this subject that is not contentious.

Jews of a legalist bent might point to Genesis Paragraph 17 Clause 21 as proof that Isaac was the rightful inheritor to Abraham’s legacy, which was, inter alia, the entirety of the land of Canaan, in perpetuity, as specified in Genesis Paragraph 17, Clause 8.

Arabs are probably contesting the will, on the grounds that the first-born son (who was also the first to undergo circumcision, which serves as evidence of the covenant, as specified in Genesis Paragraph 17 Clause 11) should be the rightful heir. Many further claim that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac, who was the one bound and nearly sacrificed, only to be saved at the last second by the angel and a ram, but the Qur’an is vague on this point, not identifying the sacrificial child by name (Surah 37:99-106).

In any case, the Arabs are doubtless wary of a nation descended from (and named after) a man whose first claim to fame was, after all, cheating his older brother out of his inheritance (Genesis 25 and 27).

EDIT: Which is all beside the point. All I was talking about was “Hebrewness”. Was Hebrewness conferred upon Isaac at birth, or upon circumcision, or did he inherit it after Abraham’s death, or what?

I mean, I know Jewishness is passed through the mother’s line. Perhaps–since there was no Jewishness in those days–Hebrewness works the same way, and Isaac inherited his Hebrewness from Sarah.

109

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I wonder which side of the fence an Arab who has converted to Judaism would take.[/quote]

I’d imagine they would support Israel while supporting an end to expanding settlements. 25% of Israeli citizens are Arabs. Most prefer to live there as a citizen than any Arab country where they are viewed as being at the bottom of the Arab totem poll and generally not welcomed.[/quote]

I was speaking literally, about the fence shown in Pitt’s video.

The soldiers said that one side was for Arabs, the other for Jews. My question was, would the IDF soldiers let an Arab who was also a Jew (either by conversion or by birth, as many Sephardim are) pass on the “good” side of the fence?

And how would he prove his Jewishness? By wearing “Jewish clothing” as opposed to a jellabiya? By showing his brit milah (circumcision) certificate? Or would the soldiers just ask him to pronounce the word “shibboleth”?[/quote]

Oh, sorry about that. I just read your post and not what it was responding to. I think they would be granted access. Conversion to Judaism is no joke. Aren’t Jews registered somewhere?

Israel isn’t all white European Jews. There are a lot with the traditional Semitic look, and don’t all that different from Arabs (especially those from the Levant). So I don’t think the IDF could even credibly discern who is and isn’t a Jew by looks alone. [/quote]

Right. That’s what I meant by “Sephardim”. I think the video isn’t telling the whole story by any means, but it gives the impression that the soldiers are stopping anyone who doesn’t “look” Jewish and making them use the “other” side of the fence.

110

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I wonder which side of the fence an Arab who has converted to Judaism would take.[/quote]

I’d imagine they would support Israel while supporting an end to expanding settlements. 25% of Israeli citizens are Arabs. Most prefer to live there as a citizen than any Arab country where they are viewed as being at the bottom of the Arab totem poll and generally not welcomed.[/quote]

I was speaking literally, about the fence shown in Pitt’s video.

The soldiers said that one side was for Arabs, the other for Jews. My question was, would the IDF soldiers let an Arab who was also a Jew (either by conversion or by birth, as many Sephardim are) pass on the “good” side of the fence?

And how would he prove his Jewishness? By wearing “Jewish clothing” as opposed to a jellabiya? By showing his brit milah (circumcision) certificate? Or would the soldiers just ask him to pronounce the word “shibboleth”?[/quote]

Oh, sorry about that. I just read your post and not what it was responding to. I think they would be granted access. Conversion to Judaism is no joke. Aren’t Jews registered somewhere?

Israel isn’t all white European Jews. There are a lot with the traditional Semitic look, and don’t all that different from Arabs (especially those from the Levant). So I don’t think the IDF could even credibly discern who is and isn’t a Jew by looks alone. [/quote]

Right. That’s what I meant by “Sephardim”. I think the video isn’t telling the whole story by any means, but it gives the impression that the soldiers are stopping anyone who doesn’t “look” Jewish and making them use the “other” side of the fence.
[/quote]

Man, I know I’d be real pissed if I was a Jew and wasn’t allowed back in my country because I was too swarthy and not Euro looking enough. I don’t know how you’d prove it then unless there was a registry somewhere. And if you weren’t on that registry, maybe you would have to prove it through lineage or conversion documents.

Also, aside from the Sephardis, there are the Mizrahim Jews who are the Jews that never left the ME and definitely do not look European. And then the Iranian Jews, who look no different than Persian Iranians. Plenty of these people currently in Israel. I wonder if they are treated the same as the Ashkenazis.

It would be cool if Jewbacca could comment on that, even though it’s a tangent to the topic.

111

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

I wonder if they are treated the same as the Ashkenazis.

[/quote]

Oh, certainly the swarthy, Arabic- or Farsi- speaking Jews are treated no differently in Israel than their light-skinned European brothers.

Why would they be?

112

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

I wonder if they are treated the same as the Ashkenazis.

[/quote]

Oh, certainly the swarthy, Arabic- or Farsi- speaking Jews are treated no differently in Israel than their light-skinned European brothers.

Why would they be?[/quote]

I have no real context for what’s going inside Israel regarding the different Jewish groups. I do know that Iranian Jews and Ashkenazis in Beverly Hills do not get a long with each other that well.

113

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Jewbacca should do the same, preferably in the same post that he answers why he refused to capitalize “Muslim”.[/quote]
Maybe he doesn’t recognize it as a legitimate religion. Maybe it makes him feel good. Who knows? Why keep bringing it up? I guess there is a larger point you are trying to make regarding this about the attitudes of Israelis as a whole.

Otherwise you may as well just make a new thread on policing people on the internet who may hypothetically offend a group of people that isn’t even represented in the audience.[/quote]

My point is this, and I’ve already made it: Jewbacca argues that it’s the Palestinians who don’t want a state since they have rejected every Israeli proposal to create one. If Jewbacca’s blatant disrespect of all Arabs and Muslims by passively-aggressively denigrating them is indicative of Israeli attitudes in general (and I suspect that it is) then I don’t blame Palestinians for refusing to accept a state under Israeli terms. I wouldn’t expect blacks to accept civil rights legislature from a group who refers to them as “niggers”.

Like I said earlier, don’t sell me the hooker with the heart of gold. That is essentially what Jewbacca is doing, and he compounds things further by claiming to be a devout worshipper of God/Yahweh on the one hand while arguing about moral equivalency on the other.[/quote]

And yet blacks overwhelmingly support the political party that fought to keep them enslaved and then segregated.
[/quote]

Are you kidding?

114

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.[/quote]

Would you show respect to a group of people who murdered your family? Moron.
[/quote]

And yet, here he is wondering why Palestinians aren’t receptive towards Israelis showing up on their doorsteps with flowers. And it wasn’t ALL Arabs or Muslims who did this, but he’s lumped them all into the same category. That is the mindset in Israel. Moron.[/quote]

It has less to do with the actions of Israel and more to do with the fact that the Palestinians and the Arab world at large are not satisfied with anything less than the complete obliteration of Israel as a whole. Peace cannot be achieved because the Palestinian authorities refuse to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
They aren’t even required to like Israel, all they have to do is recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence against Israel. This has been this way always.
All the Palestinians have to do is to recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence and they will have their own nation, fully recognized by the international community and pledges to get their nation off the ground politically and economically.
Those pieces are already in place, all they have to do is recognize Israel and renounce violence, nothing more.
The hatred is so deep they would cut their nose to spite their face.
[/quote]

I used to have a car with two bullet holes in the rear passenger door. That’s what happens to whites who drive through certain black areas of Oakland in a '78 Seville.

The Israeli response would be to blow up the entire housing project that the shots came from and then justify the collateral damage by saying that pretty much all blacks in that area hate all whites, so fuck it. Blow 'em all up.

115

Seems there are no good side in this conflict.

116

[quote]espenl wrote:
Seems there are no good side in this conflict.[/quote]

Then you haven’t read the thread.

There is one side that overwhelmingly wants peace, but will defend itself, and the other side that overwhelmingly demands genocide of the other side.

If you think there is “no good side to that,” then I guess there was no good side to fighting the Nazis, either.

117

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Jewbacca should do the same, preferably in the same post that he answers why he refused to capitalize “Muslim”.[/quote]
Maybe he doesn’t recognize it as a legitimate religion. Maybe it makes him feel good. Who knows? Why keep bringing it up? I guess there is a larger point you are trying to make regarding this about the attitudes of Israelis as a whole.

Otherwise you may as well just make a new thread on policing people on the internet who may hypothetically offend a group of people that isn’t even represented in the audience.[/quote]

My point is this, and I’ve already made it: Jewbacca argues that it’s the Palestinians who don’t want a state since they have rejected every Israeli proposal to create one. If Jewbacca’s blatant disrespect of all Arabs and Muslims by passively-aggressively denigrating them is indicative of Israeli attitudes in general (and I suspect that it is) then I don’t blame Palestinians for refusing to accept a state under Israeli terms. I wouldn’t expect blacks to accept civil rights legislature from a group who refers to them as “niggers”.

Like I said earlier, don’t sell me the hooker with the heart of gold. That is essentially what Jewbacca is doing, and he compounds things further by claiming to be a devout worshipper of God/Yahweh on the one hand while arguing about moral equivalency on the other.[/quote]

And yet blacks overwhelmingly support the political party that fought to keep them enslaved and then segregated.
[/quote]

Are you kidding?[/quote]

37% of House Dems voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act as well as 31% of Senate Dems. Over 80% of Republicans voted for it in both houses. A Republican President freed the slaves even if that wasn’t his primary goal. Democrats support abortion which has led to an abortion rate among blacks that is 4x higher than whites. Democrats created the Jim Crow laws. Guess what party Bull Connor belonged to…yep the Democrat party as well as being a member of the KKK. Ever heard of Robert Byrd? The Dem Senator who died in 2010 who was a past member of the KKK. Check out the voting record of the Democrats on civil rights issues for the 80 years prior to 1964.

118

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

I wonder if they are treated the same as the Ashkenazis.

[/quote]

Oh, certainly the swarthy, Arabic- or Farsi- speaking Jews are treated no differently in Israel than their light-skinned European brothers.

Why would they be?[/quote]

What about black Jews? Flown in from Ethiopia in Project Solomon in '91?

119

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
…
The Israeli response would be to blow up the entire housing project that the shots came from and then justify the collateral damage by saying that pretty much all blacks in that area hate all whites, so fuck it. Blow 'em all up. [/quote]

You must have in mind a specific example of such behavior. Please cite it.

120

No, you averaged 1.55 billion in aid to Egypt.

Feel satisfied with that bargain?