Escalation in Israel

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
My relatives, at least as far as my family tree has been researched, lived in ohio, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. Some of them died in southern prisons after being wounded in battle. i, personally, have loved the south any time i have visited despite that fact. The history of southern racism does not affect me currently. If your family was murdered by the Bloods or Crips, would you offend yourself by using lowercase letters when referring to them? Are you of muslim or arab descent? Are you offended on behalf of the native americans for the name washington redskins? Are you nit-picking grammatical rules to hide feelings of anti-Semitism?
[/quote]

If you did that deliberately (not capitalising any proper noun but “Crips”, “Bloods” and “Semitism”), then that was pretty funny.[/quote]

I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, so I can’t help myself. Must have been the hot curry I ate last night.

82

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You guys sure know how to derail a thread.

I think it all comes down to superior firepower. Israel has tanks, planes, nukes, etc… Palestine has stones, small arms and rockets. If they are stupid enough to poke the bull, why the fuck is anyone surprised when they get the horns?

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us - I’ve made my point about that in another thread. But regarding THIS issue, I think Israel is well within it’s rights bomb the Palestinians back to the stone age. If a country is SUPPORTING the practice of firing rockets into another country, then they are an active partner in that attack. They should face the consequences. I think Israel should take this “opportunity” and crush their enemy. Seriously. At this point, it’s the only way there will ever be peace. If the Palestinians are too stupid to realize they are out gunned, then let evolution weed them out of existence. [/quote]

Why is it that the Israelis are hitting Hamas compounds NOW, though? If they knew these things were there, why weren’t they hitting them earlier? I’m genuinely curious about this. I turn on the news and see what are most likely American-made missiles or other materiel being used to destroy these Hamas strongholds, and I think to myself, “shit, if they knew they were there, what the fuck took them so long to bomb them into the Stone Age?”

I certainly don’t disagree that they have the right to defend themselves from rocket attacks.[/quote]

That’s a very easy question to answer: Because POLITICIANS run wars these days, not Kings. There is enough support for a full scale attack because of the kidnappings. Public opinion is the ultimate arbiter of the escalation. Right now they feel “justified” and the momentum is allowing for an escalation into the offensive. Let’s see if they have the balls to see it through (unlike US politicians who just leave the job half done).

I also don’t understand why people (not just singling you out) need to bring up the Manufacturer/Country of origin of the weapons being used by a third party. I mean, so what if Israel is using US manufactured weapons? Would it blow shit up any less if they were Russian manufactured weapons? Is the US somehow “responsible” for how Israel uses these weapons that they bought? Who gives a fuck where the weapons were made - WE aren’t the ones pulling the trigger, so why bring it up? There is no “shared responsibility” in how a customer uses a product that they bought. If the US somehow got out of the weapons selling business, I’m fully confident that Israel would find a place to get weapons, albeit they would probably pay more.

83

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, so I can’t help myself. Must have been the hot curry I ate last night.
[/quote]

Was it indian curry, thai curry or indonesian curry? I assume it couldn’t have been arabian curry.

84

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us… [/quote]

I know right? It’s like your wife talking back to you in front of your friends. Take her credit cards away for a few weeks and see how she likes that.[/quote]

And I’d give her a taste of the PIMP HAND while I was at it! LOL

85

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Incidentally, as a followup to my previous post about capitalisation and geography, from which geographical region did the Hebrews originally come? For that matter, what does “Hebrew” actually mean? I had assumed that because the word 'ivri was first used to refer to Abraham in Genesis 14:13, that his name itself provided the etymology of the word. But now I see that can’t be. Ab Raham means “Father of Many”, and as such, uses a completely different root word as does 'ivri. But there is Genesis 14:13, calling Abraham a Hebrew. And if Abraham was a Hebrew, wouldn’t all his descendants be? Including the descendants of Ishmael?

Isn’t a Hebrew, etymologically at least, any Semite (descendant of Shem) who is also a descendant of Eber (son of Shem)? Eber, by the way, is the first named character in the Bible (notice capitalisation) whose name does use the same root as 'ivri, which is of course ayin-beth-resh.

What I find fascinating is that the meaning of words containing the ayin-beth-resh root all imply transience or passage.

Does this mean that Hebrews aren’t actually “from” anywhere, but have always been “just passing through”? Like a nomad?

What I also find fascinating is that the ayin-beth-resh root is pronounced 'ain-beh-ro in another Semitic language, also implies transience or passage, and is probably the root of the word “Arab”.

Wouldn’t that be something?

Anyway, hijack over. Carry on.

[/quote]

Abram and Sarah were from the Mesopotamian City of Ur. Sarah was also Abram’s half sister. Abram’s paternal ancestors were from Ur going back three generations(Terah, Nahor, Serug) then Reu and Peleg were Mesopotamian(no mention of where exactly as far as I know - Peleg was around the time of the Tower of Babel.) Then Eber, Shalah, Arphaxad and Shem. Hagar(Ishmael’s mother) was Egyptian. I would’ve thought you’d know this.

86

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, so I can’t help myself. Must have been the hot curry I ate last night.
[/quote]

Was it indian curry, thai curry or indonesian curry? I assume it couldn’t have been arabian curry.[/quote]

Lol. It was Sri Lankan actually. (My in-laws would be mad if I didn’t capitalize their nationality)

87

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Incidentally, as a followup to my previous post about capitalisation and geography, from which geographical region did the Hebrews originally come? For that matter, what does “Hebrew” actually mean? I had assumed that because the word 'ivri was first used to refer to Abraham in Genesis 14:13, that his name itself provided the etymology of the word. But now I see that can’t be. Ab Raham means “Father of Many”, and as such, uses a completely different root word as does 'ivri. But there is Genesis 14:13, calling Abraham a Hebrew. And if Abraham was a Hebrew, wouldn’t all his descendants be? Including the descendants of Ishmael?

Isn’t a Hebrew, etymologically at least, any Semite (descendant of Shem) who is also a descendant of Eber (son of Shem)? Eber, by the way, is the first named character in the Bible (notice capitalisation) whose name does use the same root as 'ivri, which is of course ayin-beth-resh.

What I find fascinating is that the meaning of words containing the ayin-beth-resh root all imply transience or passage.

Does this mean that Hebrews aren’t actually “from” anywhere, but have always been “just passing through”? Like a nomad?

What I also find fascinating is that the ayin-beth-resh root is pronounced 'ain-beh-ro in another Semitic language, also implies transience or passage, and is probably the root of the word “Arab”.

Wouldn’t that be something?

Anyway, hijack over. Carry on.

[/quote]

Abram and Sarah were from the Mesopotamian City of Ur. Sarah was also Abram’s half sister. Abram’s paternal ancestors were from Ur going back three generations(Terah, Nahor, Serug) then Reu and Peleg were Mesopotamian(no mention of where exactly as far as I know - Peleg was around the time of the Tower of Babel.) Then Eber, Shalah, Arphaxad and Shem. Hagar(Ishmael’s mother) was Egyptian. I would’ve thought you’d know this.
[/quote]

I did know this, which is why I said that I thought that the term “Hebrew” went back to Abraham. Come to find out that it goes back as far as Eber, and who knows where he was from?

The real question is, when Genesis 14:13 refers to Abram (as he was then called) as a Hebrew ('ivri), was the word referring to his genealogy (descendant of Eber), or the fact that had “passed over” from somewhere else.

And anyway, I only got onto this tangent because it occurred to me that we call Arabs “Arabs” nominally because they come from a place known for millennia as “Arabia”, but that there is no equivalently ancient land of “Hebrewvia” for the Hebrews to trace the etymological lineage of their name, and so geography doesn’t always work when deciding whether to capitalise a word or not.

But then I did a bit more thinking about the words Hebrew and Arab themselves, and realised that they are related etymologically as least as closely as the people to whom they refer are related biologically. Ergo, if one is to be capitalised, so is the other.

88

know I do not have first hand experience about Israel , but it is on my bucket list . I do not know what is going on there but there is no shortage of sources that lay blame squarely on Israel

http://www.stopdebezetting.com/artikelen/the-reality-of-palestinian-prisoners-lives-behind-israeli-bars.html

I could go on and on .

I can not speak for any one else but if you systematically fuck with me or my family or the people I care about you will get war . I am merely trying to judge is Israel doing the best they can to be compassionate occupiers or do they deserve what they get .

I did regurgitate that from an LSD trip Tim and I had but after I went out with Liddy and womanized :slight_smile:

89

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I’ll have one post on this.

First, contrast the kidnapping/murder of the 3 Yeshiva students (one of which is American) and the murder of the arab boy.

The arab officials celebrating the kidnapping, the muslim religious leaders celebrated the murders, the arab media celebrated teh kidnappings, the arab population celebrated the kidnappings, and they generally thought the murder of the 3 boys was great. They sheltered the killers. In short, it was not a "fringe’ part of the arabs. It was mainstream.

The murder of the arab boy, in contrast, was condemned for what it was — murder — by the Israeli government, religious leaders, media, and people. The Israeli police arrested the alleged murderers and they are sure to face justice.

The arabs don’t care, however.

In fact, one of the mothers of 3 Yeshiva boys tried to come by with flowers for the mother of the arab boy; she was turned away by rock throwers. The arab boy’s mother was on the BBC yesterday saying she “didn’t want flowers; she wanted dead Jews.”

So, yes, there is no moral equivalency here.

++++++++++

Regarding the lie that Israel does not want peace or a PA state. Well, a PA state has been offered hundreds of times. In fact, it started out that way — a PA state and a Jewish state.

The arabs flatly refused to permit a Jewish state to exist and continue to refuse today.

That is the sole serious issue; the rest could be handled by a couple of surveyors, some emails, a couple of real estate appraisals, and a little cash going both ways to private landowners. Texas and Oklahoma have more complicated land owning issues along the Red River.
[/quote]

Your refusal to capitalize Arabs or Muslims tells me all I need to know about your stance.[/quote]

Would you show respect to a group of people who murdered your family? Moron.
[/quote]

And yet, here he is wondering why Palestinians aren’t receptive towards Israelis showing up on their doorsteps with flowers. And it wasn’t ALL Arabs or Muslims who did this, but he’s lumped them all into the same category. That is the mindset in Israel. Moron.[/quote]

It has less to do with the actions of Israel and more to do with the fact that the Palestinians and the Arab world at large are not satisfied with anything less than the complete obliteration of Israel as a whole. Peace cannot be achieved because the Palestinian authorities refuse to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
They aren’t even required to like Israel, all they have to do is recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence against Israel. This has been this way always.
All the Palestinians have to do is to recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence and they will have their own nation, fully recognized by the international community and pledges to get their nation off the ground politically and economically.
Those pieces are already in place, all they have to do is recognize Israel and renounce violence, nothing more.
The hatred is so deep they would cut their nose to spite their face.

90

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I mean, so what if Israel is using US manufactured weapons? …If the US somehow got out of the weapons selling business, I’m fully confident that Israel would find a place to get weapons, albeit they would probably pay more.[/quote]

FWIW, I used a Israeli-made night vision scope and range finder many, many, times in both Crapganistan* and Iraq. The unit found many arab shitheads to kill with Israeli-made man-portable drones. And the US Airforce really uses their stuff.

Anyway, to your point regarding aid, Israel get less US aid than the Palestinians, Jordanians, and Egyptians. Yes, Israel is rude. But, well, they’re Jewish.

Now married to a Jewish lady, I can tell you their tongues are pretty sharp. Nothing personal is meant. Just a cultural thing, I think.

And, well, Obama is a complete dick and deserves to be talked down to like the dick he is.

Moreover, the “aid” to Israel is overwhelmingly military trade credits, and basically gets funneled not to Israel, but directly to US defense contractors. In short, it’s corporate welfare for US companies.

The rationale is that it keeps our manufacturing lines at the ready for times of increased demand. (The slow ramp up to WWII and Gulf War II left the USA spooked in that regard.)

Finally,some of the “aid” is really rent for spectacularly huge supply depots we put in the middle of Israel, which is something I think people don’t appreciate. I’ve seen them and used many a round from them.

Israel is the USA’s only really trustworthy forward operating base in the middle east.

Double bonus is that all these supplies are surrounded by arguably the best air force in the region (even over ours, in that area) and lots of armor and troops (and nukes), so the supplies won’t get into the wrong hands.

The strategic importance of that FOB can’t be understated.

  • Was that sufficiently disrespectful to the Rag-Headed Pedophile Moon Worshipers? I intended it to be. I can forget to capitalize “Rag-Headed Pedophile Moon Worshipers” if that makes it more offensive.
91

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You guys sure know how to derail a thread.

I think it all comes down to superior firepower. Israel has tanks, planes, nukes, etc… Palestine has stones, small arms and rockets. If they are stupid enough to poke the bull, why the fuck is anyone surprised when they get the horns?

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us - I’ve made my point about that in another thread. But regarding THIS issue, I think Israel is well within it’s rights bomb the Palestinians back to the stone age. If a country is SUPPORTING the practice of firing rockets into another country, then they are an active partner in that attack. They should face the consequences. I think Israel should take this “opportunity” and crush their enemy. Seriously. At this point, it’s the only way there will ever be peace. If the Palestinians are too stupid to realize they are out gunned, then let evolution weed them out of existence. [/quote]

I agree with your logic and points, but it is strictly hypothetical. Israel may or may not want to do that, but it can’t because the international backlash would be severe, the boycott movement would gain significant ground, and antisemitism would increase around the world, particularly in Europe where antisemitism is already high. I suspect Hamas knows this already.

So it contributes to this crisis which is seemingly unsolvable. The Israeli’s can’t take decisive action because it would hurt Israeli’s standing with the rest of the world and almost assuredly lead to increasing hate crimes around the world. The Palestinians can’t take decisive action because they don’t have the organization or resources to do so. And too many Palestinians in leadership roles either do not want Israel to exist, or do not want it to exist as it is currently defined, which is a Jewish state (i.e.; they want the right of return for everyone claiming Palestinian identity). The Israelis obviously want Israel to exist, and they also want it to exist as a Jewish state.

Conclusion: This will more than likely still be a problem when we are all dead.

I feel for the Palestinians, I really do. But their current stance is not constructive. The Arabs had their chances in the past and they failed. Whether or not modern Israel should have been created is another topic. The facts are that there were several wars between Israel and various Arab forces and Israel won every time. At this time in history, Israel is here to stay and this should be accepted for any solution to be viable. I know I’m not willing to concede the USA to American Indians and leave, and I don’t expect the Israeli’s leave their country either.

92

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And if Abraham was a Hebrew, wouldn’t all his descendants be? Including the descendants of Ishmael?
[/quote]

No, because that blessing went with Issac.

Ishmael (who is the father of the Arabs aka Ishmaelites) got his own “blessing”

  1. " will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.â??

  2. “He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyoneâ??s hand against him,
    and he will live in hostility
    toward[b] all his brothers.”

93

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us… [/quote]

I know right? It’s like your wife talking back to you in front of your friends. Take her credit cards away for a few weeks and see how she likes that.[/quote]

You make a good point here. The USA is somewhat wed to Israel, and that relationship isn’t going to change unless there is a massive shift in USA foreign policy, and not just in regards to Israel. There would need to be a complete ideological shift to isolationism, which would have dramatic effects on the entire world and should not be taken lightly.

Even if you don’t agree with Israel’s policies, the fact is that the USA cannot just cut and run from the relationship. There would be significant consequences to that, and it would go much farther than the savings from not providing Israel with aid.

94

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us… [/quote]

I know right? It’s like your wife talking back to you in front of your friends. Take her credit cards away for a few weeks and see how she likes that.[/quote]

You make a good point here. The USA is somewhat wed to Israel, and that relationship isn’t going to change unless there is a massive shift in USA foreign policy, and not just in regards to Israel. There would need to be a complete ideological shift to isolationism, which would have dramatic effects on the entire world and should not be taken lightly.

Even if you don’t agree with Israel’s policies, the fact is that the USA cannot just cut and run from the relationship. There would be significant consequences to that, and it would go much farther than the savings from not providing Israel with aid.[/quote]

It could change if the majority of Americans thought Israel was the problem

95

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us… [/quote]

I know right? It’s like your wife talking back to you in front of your friends. Take her credit cards away for a few weeks and see how she likes that.[/quote]

You make a good point here. The USA is somewhat wed to Israel, and that relationship isn’t going to change unless there is a massive shift in USA foreign policy, and not just in regards to Israel. There would need to be a complete ideological shift to isolationism, which would have dramatic effects on the entire world and should not be taken lightly.

Even if you don’t agree with Israel’s policies, the fact is that the USA cannot just cut and run from the relationship. There would be significant consequences to that, and it would go much farther than the savings from not providing Israel with aid.[/quote]

My post was just a joke. I don’t so much “support Israel” in the sense that most evangelicals and conservatives do. Rather, I support Jewish nationalism(at least in a secular sense) but consider what the state of Israel and Israelis do is their business. Regarding US aid - Israel has a GDP of around 250 billion and receives 2 billion US aid. I don’t imagine it makes a great difference. What I think is more important is sharing intelligence, technology and military and diplomatic cooperation.

96

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It could change if the majority of Americans thought Israel was the problem
[/quote]
Do you ever notice how no one even bothers replying to you anymore

97

this is for Jews only :slight_smile: funny shit

98

I wonder which side of the fence an Arab who has converted to Judaism would take.

99

How do the Palestinians conduct commerce through these check points ? It really has to stymie their economy . No wonder they are so poor

100

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I am no big fan of the US “blindly” supporting Israel financially when they are publicly disrespectful to us… [/quote]

I know right? It’s like your wife talking back to you in front of your friends. Take her credit cards away for a few weeks and see how she likes that.[/quote]

You make a good point here. The USA is somewhat wed to Israel, and that relationship isn’t going to change unless there is a massive shift in USA foreign policy, and not just in regards to Israel. There would need to be a complete ideological shift to isolationism, which would have dramatic effects on the entire world and should not be taken lightly.

Even if you don’t agree with Israel’s policies, the fact is that the USA cannot just cut and run from the relationship. There would be significant consequences to that, and it would go much farther than the savings from not providing Israel with aid.[/quote]

It could change if the majority of Americans thought Israel was the problem
[/quote]

Potentially. There’s still the issue of how the world would perceive us if we abandoned Israel and the consequences of doing so. We would not be viewed as a trustworthy partner anymore, an issue we’re already facing. There is also the issue of the importance of having a reliable partner in the Middle East. To abandon Israel is to abandon the Middle East, which is too important and strategic of a region for the world superpower to not have any influence. We need ME allies so we can protect natural resources the world economy depends on and so we can monitor what terrorists are doing. The USA isn’t likely to find the same cooperation and reliability we get from Israel compared to other ME countries classified as allies.

In addition, the US was important in establishing Israel in the first place, so there is an obligation to support it. My first post on page 1 went into more detail on this topic about why the US supports Israel so much.

I also don’t think it’s likely for the majority of Americans to ever view Israel as the problem. There would have to be something severe and I doubt Israel would ever take it that far because they know their actions impact the rest of world Jewry. And if they were going to take action severe enough to sway popular American opinion, it would have already happened.

In Europe, there is a lot of antisemitism. It’s fundamentally different here. There are more people passionate about Israel than people passionate about Palestine. I think most of the beef against Israel coming from Americans has to do with a desire to not meddle in the Middle East and giving billions of dollars worth of aid every year. I don’t think it has to do with a love for Palestine. On the other hand, there are Americans who truly love Israel. Public opinion may superficially appear to be swaying, but looking at rhetoric coming from politicians it’s clear that a fundamental shift in US policy isn’t on the horizon.

I’m not trying to defend either side in any of the posts I’ve made in this thread. Just trying to lay out the reality of the situation, and why certain things are.