I am guessing why Sharon backed out was cost
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Palestine refuses. Now what?[/quote]
Well, Obama could unfriend them on Facebook, like he did to Putin.
Sends a message, that unfriending!
What a loser.[/quote]
Do you think Obama is a socialist or a muslim?
[/quote]
Socialist, Muslim, Homo Sexual, Nazi, Kenyan,
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
At present Israel wold have to move it’s borders to include Gaza
[/quote]
What purpose would that serve?[/quote]
you protect Gaza like it was Israel , don’t allow bad people in . They evidently did it before Sharon’s time
[/quote]
That is what they are doing now. They call it a blockade. You called it a prison.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Palestine refuses. Now what?[/quote]
Well, Obama could unfriend them on Facebook, like he did to Putin.
Sends a message, that unfriending!
What a loser.[/quote]
Do you think Obama is a socialist or a muslim?
[/quote]
I don’t care. He’s an idiot, regardless.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Palestine refuses. Now what?[/quote]
Well, Obama could unfriend them on Facebook, like he did to Putin.
Sends a message, that unfriending!
What a loser.[/quote]
Do you think Obama is a socialist or a muslim?
[/quote]
lmfao… Can’t wait to see where this irrelevant shit goes.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
From where Britain was 100 years ago, [/quote]
lol, yes.
“My country has been pretty swell in the short time frame I choose to pay attention to, so I’ll forget the totality of human history and even the same government sponsored violence I’m speaking out about.”
lol[/quote]
Again, British people don’t do the civilisational thing. Britain in 1850 is no more ‘my country’ than France was in 1066.
[/quote]
1850?!
You ever heard of a little place called “India, Mr. Hypocrite?”[/quote]
If your only argument is that because in the past Britain was bad, Israel is right to kill 1000 innocent civilians, then your argument is very poor.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
Were the Hutu’s and the Tutsi’s racist and in a racist conflict? Yes. Were they in fact exactly the same and equally human? Yes. Where did the diea of race come from? Belguim colonialists told them they were a different race and what race was.
[/quote]
Is it any wonder that people think cultural Marxists are batshit? The Africans were living peaceful lives until the evil white colonialists came and taught them to hate each other based race? WTF?[/quote]
So I cite a very specific example. Then you immediately start talking about every single African in the world as if they are all the same. The Hutu’s and the Tootsies animosity were solely the fault of the Belgium colonial administration. Not ‘the white man’. The Belguim colonial administration. Not difficult to understand.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
The Israeli law of return unequivocally cements race at the center of the narrative.
[/quote]
How so? The majority of Mizrahim are of Arab descent are they not?
[/quote]
Nope. Mizrahim are not Arabs who have converted to Judaism, which they would have to be to prove the point you are trying to make.
Race isn’t simply about skin colour.
[/quote]
Actually it’s more complex than that. I’d be interested in what Jewbacca or someone more knowledgeable than me has to say but my understanding is that Israelites and Arabs are very closely related. The biblical account is that they are both Shemites and both descended from Abraham. The DNA evidence confirms a very close relationship as well. Additionally, many Mizrahim are descendants of Arabs who converted to Judaism.[/quote]
Well yes, the only difference between Jews and Arabs in some Jewish religious texts is that one says Shibboleth and the other Sibboleth, which rather poignantly shows the utter banality and pointlessness of the current conflict, and how artificial the imposed differences are. [/quote]
And for the Israelis the conflict has nothing to do with race. Just as for the English(who are mostly of Anglo-Saxon(Germanic) ancestry) the Second World War had nothing to do with race.[/quote]
Well its a bit of a one sided analysis. The Second World War was a rejection of the German conception of race. It certainly wasn’t race neutral.
What actually makes someone a Jew is highly difficult to disentangle. Which is one of the things that makes debating Israel so difficult. [/quote]
Not really. What makes someone a Jew in the religious sense? Someone who is a descendent of the Israelites on the maternal line or a convert to Judaism. What makes someone Jewish in an ethnic sense? Someone who is descended from the Israelites.
[/quote]
Ethnicity is essentially the same as race. You can have Israeli citizenship on the basis of being Israeli by ethnicity. Thus Israel does have a racial element!
[/quote]
That’s because people have attempted to exterminate Jews based on race and Israel is a safe haven for people subject to such attempts.
[/quote]
So Israel is racial and racist (any Jew in the world has more right over the land than the people who have always lived on it, the Palestinians). Glad we have established that.
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
(any Jew in the world has more right over the land than the people who have always lived on it, the Palestinians). [/quote]
I would laugh at this, but we’ve already established you ignore history you dont’ like, just like Pitt ignores facts he doesn’t.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
You can have Israeli citizenship on the basis of being Israeli by ethnicity.
[/quote]
Proof? You’ll have to show me some evidence of this, because if you are a Jew (having an orthodox conversion) you are granted citizenship. But, I don’t think they have any possibility of figuring out if you came from Israelite heritage. [/quote]
Well you are a Jew if you can prove that your mother was a Jew, or her Grandma, or her mother. You do not have to be a practicing religious Jew to take Israeli citizenship. The criteria for the law of return was based on the Nazi race laws - not the Jewish religious texts.
Look it up yourself!
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Where are they going to launch missiles from , not Gaza[/quote]
Well that is quite the plan, takeover gaza and delcare it part of Israel then Israel can just fight with itself since killing people in your own country is more acceptable.
When people use the term cultural marxist, which is not a thing, you know they might have some questionable positions.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Very curious that “every person who saw picture in Britain” thought of the Irish when they looked at London being hit by missiles, since the last time London was hit by missiles was when the Nazis randomly dropped missiles all over civilians in London — in the exact same terror manner the arabs are dropping missiles all over Israel.[/quote]
Nope. People thought of Ireland because the conflict was an asymmetrical one with the ‘terrorist group’ having legitimate demands.
A state on the pre-1967 borders has not been offered. In any case, it is Palestinian land that Israel is occupying.
Nope, because the majority of your people (Israel being a self defined Jewish state in which every and any Jew can live) do not live in Israel and do not want to. And many of the ones in Israel keep their second passport close.
Take away the law of return, and make Israeli citizens give up their second passports, and I’ll be more open to consider Israel as a nation and as representing a ‘people’.
Whatever Hamas says simply seeing the numbers dead on both sides, Israel’s illegal settlement building and its constant failure to uphold international law, it is clear that it is Israel intent on genocide, not Hamas.
[quote]What’s the offer: “OK, Hamas, here’s the deal. You wait 7 years before you attack and then you only get to kill 1/2 the Jews and you let
1/2 the Jews scatter to other countries?”[/quote]
Withdraw to the pre-1967 borders for both Israel and Palestine, and let the UN oversee the defense and borders of Palestine for the next 10 years with full autonomy given to the Palestinian government in every other respect. After 10 years, there won’t be any Hamas.
[quote]No one blinked when London attacked the genocidal nutbags in Germany in a far more vicious manner than Israel does Hamas.
To hold Israel to different standard is absurd.[/quote]
Given that Israel was imposed by the UN onto the Palestinian people by the barrel of a gun, the first fault lies with Israel. It was Israel doing the displacing and the attacking. The idea that Israel’s illegal occupation of much of Palestine is equivocal to Britain standing up to Nazi Germany in bizarre and wrong.
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
The Israeli law of return unequivocally cements race at the center of the narrative.
[/quote]
How so? The majority of Mizrahim are of Arab descent are they not?
[/quote]
Nope. Mizrahim are not Arabs who have converted to Judaism, which they would have to be to prove the point you are trying to make.
Race isn’t simply about skin colour.
[/quote]
Actually it’s more complex than that. I’d be interested in what Jewbacca or someone more knowledgeable than me has to say but my understanding is that Israelites and Arabs are very closely related. The biblical account is that they are both Shemites and both descended from Abraham. The DNA evidence confirms a very close relationship as well. Additionally, many Mizrahim are descendants of Arabs who converted to Judaism.[/quote]
Well yes, the only difference between Jews and Arabs in some Jewish religious texts is that one says Shibboleth and the other Sibboleth, which rather poignantly shows the utter banality and pointlessness of the current conflict, and how artificial the imposed differences are. [/quote]
And for the Israelis the conflict has nothing to do with race. Just as for the English(who are mostly of Anglo-Saxon(Germanic) ancestry) the Second World War had nothing to do with race.[/quote]
Well its a bit of a one sided analysis. The Second World War was a rejection of the German conception of race. It certainly wasn’t race neutral.
What actually makes someone a Jew is highly difficult to disentangle. Which is one of the things that makes debating Israel so difficult. [/quote]
Not really. What makes someone a Jew in the religious sense? Someone who is a descendent of the Israelites on the maternal line or a convert to Judaism. What makes someone Jewish in an ethnic sense? Someone who is descended from the Israelites.
[/quote]
Ethnicity is essentially the same as race. You can have Israeli citizenship on the basis of being Israeli by ethnicity. Thus Israel does have a racial element!
[/quote]
That’s because people have attempted to exterminate Jews based on race and Israel is a safe haven for people subject to such attempts.
[/quote]
So Israel is racial and racist (any Jew in the world has more right over the land than the people who have always lived on it, the Palestinians). Glad we have established that. [/quote]
Sorry, when did we establish that Palestinians “always lived on it?” I must have missed that part. Are the Palestinians Mycenaean Greeks(Philistines) or Canaanites or something? Where are we going with this?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You can be an Irish citizen on the basis of having an IRISH ancestor… SO WHAT? You can be a Bolivian citizen if you can prove that you have Bolivian ancestry…
This is not a “novel” concept here.[/quote]
If a grandparent left Bolivia or Ireland (but no generation earlier), you cold claim Bolivian citizenship.
However you can claim an Israeli citizenship by being a Jew, the racial presumption is that if you are a Jew you are descended from the people who lived on the land 2000 years ago. So you can go to Israel, live on illegal settlements and have more rights than the Palestinians that the land has been taken from simply by being Jewish. Even if your last ancestor on the land was 2000 years ago.
The distinction is pretty obvious.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Sorry, when did we establish that Palestinians “always lived on it?” I must have missed that part. Are the Palestinians Mycenaean Greeks(Philistines) or Canaanites or something? Where are we going with this?[/quote]
Stop with this ancient history tribal BS. Its all invented. Its all out of a tedious Holy Book - like reading the Koran for historical accuracy.
The people who were displaced by Israel were the people who had always lived there it was their land taken from them by the colonial administration. It is not difficult to understand.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
(any Jew in the world has more right over the land than the people who have always lived on it, the Palestinians). [/quote]
I would laugh at this, but we’ve already established you ignore history you dont’ like, just like Pitt ignores facts he doesn’t. [/quote]
So you are denying that there was anyone living in the area that is now Israel before 1947 that wasn’t Jewish. Or perhaps there was, but you are a racist who doesn’t believe they are human, so they don’t count?
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
As I have already pointed out. Israel did not choose to displace them originally. The international community had moved to set up two separate states, Palestine and Israel with Jerusalem being shared and neutral. The Arabs refused and the surrounding nations, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt attacked. This led to a civil war between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Palestine was soundly defeated. If they didn’t want to suffer the effects of war, maybe they shouldn’t have started one.
[/quote]
The Palestinians did not start a war. The states around Israel and Palestine attacked Israel, and so Israel took the opportunity to displace millions of Palestinians and occupy their land. The Palestinian people did nothing wrong.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
There have always been Jews living in that part of the world, as has been mentioned many times, the immigration of many more Jews to what was then a British territory was facilitated by Jews purchasing, not stealing land. Once they got their conflict between Jews who had legally purchased land, and Arabs who had always lived there broke out. This is the aforementioned civil war. Did this lead to many Arabs getting displaced or then being forced to live under Israeli rule? Yes. Was it their own fault for starting the way? Yes.
Secondly, to say that any type of peace can be reached with Palestine that doesn’t involve removing the country of Israel from existence and giving it to the Palestinians show a fundamental lack of knowledge of the situation.
[/quote]
If the American government sold California to Russia and the Californian people resisted and tried to stop Russians occupying their land, would the Russian settlers be entitled to displace all the Californians and kill as many of them as possible?
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
What you are claiming holds absoloutley no basis in reality, to deny the forced removal really is like denying the plight of the Native Americans and denying the Armenian genocide.
[/quote]
Your own wikipedia account does not support your post. Two points:
-
We’re not talking about the bulk of what is Israel and, most importantly, Tel-Aviv. That was all just bought.
-
The Ben Gurion government begged the 700,000 Arabs in question to stay and become part of Israel, but they refused, and left AT THE BEHEST OF INVADING ARAB ARMIES OF JORDAN, EGYPT, ETC. and because they refused to live under Jewish rule. (Most local Arabs stayed and are normal citizens of Israel, just like anyone else.) [/quote]
So the choice was get the fuck out or become part of our settler state? And this is not violent or oppressive?
[/quote]
No, Israel said they could have their own Arab state, right next to Israel. They did not have to leave and did not have to become part of Israel. The Arabs in question refused to permit Israel to exist along side their state. Most stayed. Those Arabs that stayed are the smart ones, given they have the highest incomes and education level in all the the Middle East.
Israel didn’t have a moral right to a state anyway - it was given to them by colonialists. That is the founding and inalienable historic injustice.