[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Posted this in the wrong thread. This is about an 11 minute primer on the situation. Watch it and amaze your friends
[/quote]
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Where do you propose this Palestinian state be constructed so that it will satisfy the Palestinians and stop the fighting?[/quote]
right where it is , Israel is already occupying it , it would be kinder rather than turn it into a prison , turn it into a functioning city .
I do not see any other option , If Israel continues present policies , they will either have to destroy all of it’s potential enemies or make peace . Because the way things are going Israel will have some misfortune at some point and it could be all over for them .
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
The comparison just does not fit, one is a tiny resistance force, their land was taken and the natives forced out to make way for a jewish state… to do things like force palestinians off their land and kill lots of them. …
When you force millions off land. . .[/quote]
You are operating with bad facts.
You need to read this thread carefully. Palestinians were not forced from their land and it was not stolen and millions have not been killed by Israel.
The three biggest points:
The land that is Israel was largely purchased from one private citizen to another. In particular, look at the testimony of the Grand Mufti on this very thread.
The West Bank, Gaza, etc, used to be mixed areas of all local religions, and the Muslims killed the Jews in the first part of the 1900s.
The Arabs that are now called “Palestinians” largely immigrated to what-is-now Israel to find work from Jewish people in the British Mandate. To the extent they were “displaced” it was by the Arab armies in 1967. The Jews did not slaughter them and there were no large murders of Arabs by Israelis. (Now, the Jordanians and Egyptians have killed in the hundreds of thousands, but no one cares about that.)
+++++
As a born-on-the-reservation Apache, I tend to side on the side of people claiming their native land was stolen. It hits close to home. Well, after due consideration, I find the claims of the so-called Palestinians to be complete bullshit.
[/quote]
What you are claiming holds absoloutley no basis in reality, to deny the forced removal really is like denying the plight of the Native Americans and denying the Armenian genocide.
80% were forefully removed from their homes.
From wikipedia with sources:
The exact number of refugees is a matter of dispute.[7] But around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[8][9] The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, attacks against Arab villages and fears of another massacre after Deir Yassin,[10]:239�?�¢??240 which caused many to leave out of panic; expulsion orders by Zionist authorities; the voluntary self-removal of the wealthier classes,[11] the collapse in Palestinian leadership,[12] and an unwillingness to live under Jewish control.[13] Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented them from returning to their homes, or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[14][15] Later in the war, Palestinians were expelled as part of Plan Dalet.[16][citation needed] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[17][18][19] while others dispute this charge.[20][21][22]
[/quote]
As I have already pointed out. Israel did not choose to displace them originally. The international community had moved to set up two separate states, Palestine and Israel with Jerusalem being shared and neutral. The Arabs refused and the surrounding nations, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt attacked. This led to a civil war between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Palestine was soundly defeated. If they didn’t want to suffer the effects of war, maybe they shouldn’t have started one.
The Dier Yassin massacre was tragic but if my memory serves me, was committed by an extremist group and was condemned by the main Israeli militia of the time.
Lastly, you have to be very careful when using Wikipedia to bolster your points. Look at many of the citations from the exert you posted. Most come from very pro-Palestinian sources that have a knack for propaganda and are the equivalent of the Palestinian Times posted earlier. That and one from a Columbian professor, the same Columbia who thought hosting Mamoud Ahmadinejad was a pretty good idea.
[/quote]
I am not saying you are wrong in your hitorical knowledge, I am not saying you are making this history up, once again I am not anti Israel.
I understand the history of the mandate and later the formation of Israel. However the way you gloss over the implications of founding an Israeli state in an area already inhabbited, kind of white washes the actual on the ground realities of such a thing occuring.
If I and others decided to migrate to the U.S and create two states and said those already there were free to keep living there under my state, that would not be seen as ok or not forced removal if those people decided to leave.
I know people like to talk about there never being a palestine, but that is really irrelevant, the people who lived there had just as much a claim to the land as I do to my land and my community does to my land.
I understand why jewish people wanted to form the israeli state after the genocide, but the reality to doing it where people already live is that they had to either make them live under a jewish state of settlers, or flee or be removed if they refused the new states governance and yet wanted to stay in their homes.
That was injustice and it needs addressing before palestinians just forgive.
I think if the right of return was given and real power sharing of territory was implemented we could have a real peacefull solution. Problem is after so many decades of war both sides have rabid ideologues representing them.
Decades ago both the Israeli leadership and the Palestinian leadership were both secular and somewhat left leaning nationalists, so much so for example lefties like the USSR ans Cuba initially began formal relaitons with both sides.
As the hatred grew and the time went on groups like the PLO who recognised the legitimacy of Israel and Israeli politicains and heads of state recognised palestinians legitimate grievences dissapeared and more hardened and right wing incarnations flourished on both sides, right wing nationalists and zionists and Islamic fundamentalist anti semites began dictating the discourse.
Now on forums, regular people who have done no research on the subject are so millitant in their stances both sides from 30 years ago would label them as extremists.
[/quote]
You might find this instructive. Or you may ignore it because it disagrees with your pre-conceived notions of history.
Either way, I re-link it for those who wonder who bought what when and why.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Where do you propose this Palestinian state be constructed so that it will satisfy the Palestinians and stop the fighting?[/quote]
right where it is , Israel is already occupying it , it would be kinder rather than turn it into a prison , turn it into a functioning city .
I do not see any other option , If Israel continues present policies , they will either have to destroy all of it’s potential enemies or make peace . Because the way things are going Israel will have some misfortune at some point and it could be all over for them .
They are in a sea of Muslims
[/quote]
So you are saying make the West bank and Gaza Palestine?? Like this:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Posted this in the wrong thread. This is about an 11 minute primer on the situation. Watch it and amaze your friends
[/quote]
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
You have just shown how little you know about what you have been constantly talking out your ass about. There will be no peace until all of what is now Israel is Palestine. The elected government of Palestine has stated that in its mission statement repeatedly. That’s how they beat the other guys. As soon as the PLO pandered to the UN and was like "Fine, Israel is a state, we’ll we back off the “All Jews shall die, all this land is ours” narrative, half the people in Palestine no longer deemed them an accurate representation of their government. That half elected Hamas because Hamas still holds tight to the “Kill the Jews, Israel shall burn.” idea.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Posted this in the wrong thread. This is about an 11 minute primer on the situation. Watch it and amaze your friends
[/quote]
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
What two sets of rules?
What discrimination?
The only thing difference between arabs and Jews in Israel is Jews are subject to the draft, while arabs volunteer (and 1/2 do).
Now on forums, regular people who have done no research on the subject are so millitant in their stances [/quote]
Your understanding of what “right” wing and “left” wing is pretty whitewashed and revisionist too. If your comments about Israel are anything in comparison it should come as no shock the responses you’ve gotten here.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Palestine refuses. Now what?
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Posted this in the wrong thread. This is about an 11 minute primer on the situation. Watch it and amaze your friends
[/quote]
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Who will it be that doesn’t give them a choice? And how will that be enforced? And since they believe that they are entitled by the power of Allah to all the land that makes up Israel, what about giving them the West Bank and Gaza is going to suddenly make them abandon that idea and no longer lob rockets at Israel?
By the way, creating a Palestinian state and removing the blockade only serves two purposes. Easier to move and gather troops for an assault without Israeli supervision and allows them access to Iran, Turkey, and Qatar so that they will have better rockets and guns the next time they get ready to “solve the Jewish question”
Just like now , rather than turn Gaza into a prison , occupy Gaza , Israeli Police investigate everything that looks like Humas:) They treat their occupied with respect , as equals but occupy them until they can run their state by them self.
I am sure at present Gazans are not agreeing to the prison conditions Israel has created . And I DO NOT GIVE A FUCK , it is a PRISON
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Posted this in the wrong thread. This is about an 11 minute primer on the situation. Watch it and amaze your friends
[/quote]
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Who will it be that doesn’t give them a choice? And how will that be enforced? And since they believe that they are entitled by the power of Allah to all the land that makes up Israel, what about giving them the West Bank and Gaza is going to suddenly make them abandon that idea and no longer lob rockets at Israel?
By the way, creating a Palestinian state and removing the blockade only serves two purposes. Easier to move and gather troops for an assault without Israeli supervision and allows them access to Iran, Turkey, and Qatar so that they will have better rockets and guns the next time they get ready to “solve the Jewish question”
[/quote]
At present Israel wold have to move it’s borders to include Gaza
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Just like now , rather than turn Gaza into a prison , occupy Gaza , Israeli Police investigate everything that looks like Humas:) They treat their occupied with respect , as equals but occupy them until they can run their state by them self.
I am sure at present Gazans are not agreeing to the prison conditions Israel has created . And I DO NOT GIVE A FUCK , it is a PRISON[/quote]
So you are saying create a Palestinian state, then have Israel foot the bill for running it, while simultaneously ridding a country of a group of individuals that half the country voted for as their ruling party that would be much better armed than they are now?? Are you serious??
lol dude of course he is. He just openly admitted that he “doesn’t give a fuck” about factual information, he is going to present his made up world as reality.
Why you guys are continuing to entertain it is beyond me.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Palestine refuses. Now what?[/quote]
Well, Obama could unfriend them on Facebook, like he did to Putin.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Creating “a Palestinian State for Palestinian[s]” has been offered repeatedly, and the arabs demand that said state encompass ALL of Israel and be Judenfrei.
So, no, creating such a state will not “cause peace” because the arabs do not want a limited state. They want the entire area of land that is Israel and they want all the Jewish residents expelled.
Not sure how many times you have to hear this.[/quote]
Don’t give them a choice , Set it up and be kind , No 2 sets of rules , no discrimination
[/quote]
Palestine refuses. Now what?[/quote]
Well, Obama could unfriend them on Facebook, like he did to Putin.
