Would many posters here put the Jewish Irgun in the same terrorist category as Hamas?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The vast majority of current Palestinians, and their parents and grandparents, arrived well after Israel became a state and were a result of Arab displacement. They had NEVER resided in Palestine before. Never.
Undeniable fact.[/quote]
Not to mention, at the very same time, the Muslim countries pretty much universally expelled their native Jewish populations and forced them to Israel at the exact time.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
but what you are doing is trying to whitewash the historical injustices that lead to the hatred we see today.[/quote]
Last I checked people, including those that lived in the area, hated Jews long before the Jews were sold the land they currently live on…
Not sure who is revising or whitewashing history here…
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
What you are claiming holds absoloutley no basis in reality, to deny the forced removal really is like denying the plight of the Native Americans and denying the Armenian genocide.
[/quote]
Your own wikipedia account does not support your post. Two points:
-
We’re not talking about the bulk of what is Israel and, most importantly, Tel-Aviv. That was all just bought.
-
The Ben Gurion government begged the 700,000 Arabs in question to stay and become part of Israel, but they refused, and left AT THE BEHEST OF INVADING ARAB ARMIES OF JORDAN, EGYPT, ETC. and because they refused to live under Jewish rule. (Most local Arabs stayed and are normal citizens of Israel, just like anyone else.) [/quote]
So the choice was get the fuck out or become part of our settler state? And this is not violent or oppressive?
[/quote]
No, Israel said they could have their own Arab state, right next to Israel. They did not have to leave and did not have to become part of Israel. The Arabs in question refused to permit Israel to exist along side their state. Most stayed. Those Arabs that stayed are the smart ones, given they have the highest incomes and education level in all the the Middle East.
[quote]
I support israel’s right to exist and think most of its military actions are justifiable compared to other states actions, but what you are doing is trying to whitewash the historical injustices that lead to the hatred we see today.[/quote]
Nope. The “historical injustices” are a fiction ginned up to justify preexisting hatred of the Jews.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The vast majority of current Palestinians, and their parents and grandparents, arrived well after Israel became a state and were a result of Arab displacement. They had NEVER resided in Palestine before. Never.
Undeniable fact.[/quote]
says who ?
[/quote]
The last census of the Ottoman Empire prior to 1948 comes to mind.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
Would many posters here put the Jewish Irgun in the same terrorist category as Hamas?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing[/quote]
Regarding the King David Hotel — which was a terrorist attack of the police there — the Irgun called in the attack and the Brits blew it off, thinking the Jews could never pull it off.
Still bad stuff, but the goal was to destroy files and disrupt operations, not kill civilians.
So, even when being terrorists, the Jews are better than Hamas.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
but what you are doing is trying to whitewash the historical injustices that lead to the hatred we see today.[/quote]
Last I checked people, including those that lived in the area, hated Jews long before the Jews were sold the land they currently live on…
Not sure who is revising or whitewashing history here…[/quote]
I know this thread moves at the speed of light , where did Israel buy and from whom ?
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
The comparison just does not fit, one is a tiny resistance force, their land was taken and the natives forced out to make way for a jewish state… to do things like force palestinians off their land and kill lots of them. …
When you force millions off land. . .[/quote]
You are operating with bad facts.
You need to read this thread carefully. Palestinians were not forced from their land and it was not stolen and millions have not been killed by Israel.
The three biggest points:
-
The land that is Israel was largely purchased from one private citizen to another. In particular, look at the testimony of the Grand Mufti on this very thread.
-
The West Bank, Gaza, etc, used to be mixed areas of all local religions, and the Muslims killed the Jews in the first part of the 1900s.
-
The Arabs that are now called “Palestinians” largely immigrated to what-is-now Israel to find work from Jewish people in the British Mandate. To the extent they were “displaced” it was by the Arab armies in 1967. The Jews did not slaughter them and there were no large murders of Arabs by Israelis. (Now, the Jordanians and Egyptians have killed in the hundreds of thousands, but no one cares about that.)
+++++
As a born-on-the-reservation Apache, I tend to side on the side of people claiming their native land was stolen. It hits close to home. Well, after due consideration, I find the claims of the so-called Palestinians to be complete bullshit.
[/quote]
What you are claiming holds absoloutley no basis in reality, to deny the forced removal really is like denying the plight of the Native Americans and denying the Armenian genocide.
80% were forefully removed from their homes.
From wikipedia with sources:
The exact number of refugees is a matter of dispute.[7] But around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[8][9] The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, attacks against Arab villages and fears of another massacre after Deir Yassin,[10]:239â??240 which caused many to leave out of panic; expulsion orders by Zionist authorities; the voluntary self-removal of the wealthier classes,[11] the collapse in Palestinian leadership,[12] and an unwillingness to live under Jewish control.[13] Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented them from returning to their homes, or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[14][15] Later in the war, Palestinians were expelled as part of Plan Dalet.[16][citation needed] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[17][18][19] while others dispute this charge.[20][21][22]
[/quote]
As I have already pointed out. Israel did not choose to displace them originally. The international community had moved to set up two separate states, Palestine and Israel with Jerusalem being shared and neutral. The Arabs refused and the surrounding nations, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt attacked. This led to a civil war between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Palestine was soundly defeated. If they didn’t want to suffer the effects of war, maybe they shouldn’t have started one.
The Dier Yassin massacre was tragic but if my memory serves me, was committed by an extremist group and was condemned by the main Israeli militia of the time.
Lastly, you have to be very careful when using Wikipedia to bolster your points. Look at many of the citations from the exert you posted. Most come from very pro-Palestinian sources that have a knack for propaganda and are the equivalent of the Palestinian Times posted earlier. That and one from a Columbian professor, the same Columbia who thought hosting Mamoud Ahmadinejad was a pretty good idea.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
but what you are doing is trying to whitewash the historical injustices that lead to the hatred we see today.[/quote]
Last I checked people, including those that lived in the area, hated Jews long before the Jews were sold the land they currently live on…
Not sure who is revising or whitewashing history here…[/quote]
I know this thread moves at the speed of light , where did Israel buy and from whom ?
[/quote]
Private transactions from landowner to new landowner.
In general, the big landowners were absentee owners in Turkey, Syria, etc.
Jerusalem 1896, a film snippet by Lumiere brothers. In case someone else is interested.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
Would many posters here put the Jewish Irgun in the same terrorist category as Hamas?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing[/quote]
[quote]In 1948, The New York Times published a letter signed by a number of prominent Jewish figures including Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, and Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, which described Irgun as a “a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine”.[70][71][72] The letter went on to state that Irgun and the Stern gang “inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and widespread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.”[66]
[/quote]
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
but what you are doing is trying to whitewash the historical injustices that lead to the hatred we see today.[/quote]
Last I checked people, including those that lived in the area, hated Jews long before the Jews were sold the land they currently live on…
Not sure who is revising or whitewashing history here…[/quote]
I know this thread moves at the speed of light , where did Israel buy and from whom ?
[/quote]
Remember…a link I posted to those eleven pages?
Are you going to say you are too busy to read them?
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
The comparison just does not fit, one is a tiny resistance force, their land was taken and the natives forced out to make way for a jewish state… to do things like force palestinians off their land and kill lots of them. …
When you force millions off land. . .[/quote]
You are operating with bad facts.
You need to read this thread carefully. Palestinians were not forced from their land and it was not stolen and millions have not been killed by Israel.
The three biggest points:
-
The land that is Israel was largely purchased from one private citizen to another. In particular, look at the testimony of the Grand Mufti on this very thread.
-
The West Bank, Gaza, etc, used to be mixed areas of all local religions, and the Muslims killed the Jews in the first part of the 1900s.
-
The Arabs that are now called “Palestinians” largely immigrated to what-is-now Israel to find work from Jewish people in the British Mandate. To the extent they were “displaced” it was by the Arab armies in 1967. The Jews did not slaughter them and there were no large murders of Arabs by Israelis. (Now, the Jordanians and Egyptians have killed in the hundreds of thousands, but no one cares about that.)
+++++
As a born-on-the-reservation Apache, I tend to side on the side of people claiming their native land was stolen. It hits close to home. Well, after due consideration, I find the claims of the so-called Palestinians to be complete bullshit.
[/quote]
What you are claiming holds absoloutley no basis in reality, to deny the forced removal really is like denying the plight of the Native Americans and denying the Armenian genocide.
80% were forefully removed from their homes.
From wikipedia with sources:
The exact number of refugees is a matter of dispute.[7] But around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[8][9] The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, attacks against Arab villages and fears of another massacre after Deir Yassin,[10]:239�¢??240 which caused many to leave out of panic; expulsion orders by Zionist authorities; the voluntary self-removal of the wealthier classes,[11] the collapse in Palestinian leadership,[12] and an unwillingness to live under Jewish control.[13] Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented them from returning to their homes, or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[14][15] Later in the war, Palestinians were expelled as part of Plan Dalet.[16][citation needed] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[17][18][19] while others dispute this charge.[20][21][22]
[/quote]
As I have already pointed out. Israel did not choose to displace them originally. The international community had moved to set up two separate states, Palestine and Israel with Jerusalem being shared and neutral. The Arabs refused and the surrounding nations, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt attacked. This led to a civil war between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Palestine was soundly defeated. If they didn’t want to suffer the effects of war, maybe they shouldn’t have started one.
The Dier Yassin massacre was tragic but if my memory serves me, was committed by an extremist group and was condemned by the main Israeli militia of the time.
Lastly, you have to be very careful when using Wikipedia to bolster your points. Look at many of the citations from the exert you posted. Most come from very pro-Palestinian sources that have a knack for propaganda and are the equivalent of the Palestinian Times posted earlier. That and one from a Columbian professor, the same Columbia who thought hosting Mamoud Ahmadinejad was a pretty good idea.
[/quote]
I am not saying you are wrong in your hitorical knowledge, I am not saying you are making this history up, once again I am not anti Israel.
I understand the history of the mandate and later the formation of Israel. However the way you gloss over the implications of founding an Israeli state in an area already inhabbited, kind of white washes the actual on the ground realities of such a thing occuring.
If I and others decided to migrate to the U.S and create two states and said those already there were free to keep living there under my state, that would not be seen as ok or not forced removal if those people decided to leave.
I know people like to talk about there never being a palestine, but that is really irrelevant, the people who lived there had just as much a claim to the land as I do to my land and my community does to my land.
I understand why jewish people wanted to form the israeli state after the genocide, but the reality to doing it where people already live is that they had to either make them live under a jewish state of settlers, or flee or be removed if they refused the new states governance and yet wanted to stay in their homes.
That was injustice and it needs addressing before palestinians just forgive.
I think if the right of return was given and real power sharing of territory was implemented we could have a real peacefull solution. Problem is after so many decades of war both sides have rabid ideologues representing them.
Decades ago both the Israeli leadership and the Palestinian leadership were both secular and somewhat left leaning nationalists, so much so for example lefties like the USSR ans Cuba initially began formal relaitons with both sides.
As the hatred grew and the time went on groups like the PLO who recognised the legitimacy of Israel and Israeli politicains and heads of state recognised palestinians legitimate grievences dissapeared and more hardened and right wing incarnations flourished on both sides, right wing nationalists and zionists and Islamic fundamentalist anti semites began dictating the discourse.
Now on forums, regular people who have done no research on the subject are so millitant in their stances both sides from 30 years ago would label them as extremists.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Posted this in the wrong thread. This is about an 11 minute primer on the situation. Watch it and amaze your friends
[/quote]
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
I understand the history of the mandate and later the formation of Israel. However the way you gloss over the implications of founding an Israeli state in an area already inhabbited, kind of white washes the actual on the ground realities of such a thing occuring.
If I and others decided to migrate to the U.S and create two states and said those already there were free to keep living there under my state, that would not be seen as ok or not forced removal if those people decided to leave.
I know people like to talk about there never being a palestine, but that is really irrelevant, the people who lived there had just as much a claim to the land as I do to my land and my community does to my land.
I understand why jewish people wanted to form the israeli state after the genocide, but the reality to doing it where people already live is that they had to either make them live under a jewish state of settlers, or flee or be removed if they refused the new states governance and yet wanted to stay in their homes.
That was injustice and it needs addressing before palestinians just forgive.
I think if the right of return was given and real power sharing of territory was implemented we could have a real peacefull solution. Problem is after so many decades of war both sides have rabid ideologues representing them.
Decades ago both the Israeli leadership and the Palestinian leadership were both secular and somewhat left leaning nationalists, so much so for example lefties like the USSR ans Cuba initially began formal relaitons with both sides.
As the hatred grew and the time went on groups like the PLO who recognised the legitimacy of Israel and Israeli politicains and heads of state recognised palestinians legitimate grievences dissapeared and more hardened and right wing incarnations flourished on both sides, right wing nationalists and zionists and Islamic fundamentalist anti semites began dictating the discourse.
Now on forums, regular people who have done no research on the subject are so millitant in their stances both sides from 30 years ago would label them as extremists.
[/quote]
There have always been Jews living in that part of the world, as has been mentioned many times, the immigration of many more Jews to what was then a British territory was facilitated by Jews purchasing, not stealing land. Once they got their conflict between Jews who had legally purchased land, and Arabs who had always lived there broke out. This is the aforementioned civil war. Did this lead to many Arabs getting displaced or then being forced to live under Israeli rule? Yes. Was it their own fault for starting the way? Yes.
Secondly, to say that any type of peace can be reached with Palestine that doesn’t involve removing the country of Israel from existence and giving it to the Palestinians show a fundamental lack of knowledge of the situation.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
Now on forums, regular people who have done no research on the subject are so millitant in their stances both sides from 30 years ago would label them as extremists.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
in 2005 Ariel Sharon left Gaza to it’d own devises because it was not in Israel’s interest . Then the video acted as they were doing Gaza a Favor ???
I think this is the only way Israel will get peace . To create a Palestinian State for Palestine .
I know it is a lot but IMO there is no there choice
[/quote]
Where do you propose this Palestinian state be constructed so that it will satisfy the Palestinians and stop the fighting?
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
What you are claiming holds absoloutley no basis in reality, to deny the forced removal really is like denying the plight of the Native Americans and denying the Armenian genocide.
[/quote]
Your own wikipedia account does not support your post. Two points:
-
We’re not talking about the bulk of what is Israel and, most importantly, Tel-Aviv. That was all just bought.
-
The Ben Gurion government begged the 700,000 Arabs in question to stay and become part of Israel, but they refused, and left AT THE BEHEST OF INVADING ARAB ARMIES OF JORDAN, EGYPT, ETC. and because they refused to live under Jewish rule. (Most local Arabs stayed and are normal citizens of Israel, just like anyone else.) [/quote]
So the choice was get the fuck out or become part of our settler state? And this is not violent or oppressive?
[/quote]
No, Israel said they could have their own Arab state, right next to Israel. They did not have to leave and did not have to become part of Israel. The Arabs in question refused to permit Israel to exist along side their state. Most stayed. Those Arabs that stayed are the smart ones, given they have the highest incomes and education level in all the the Middle East.
Correct.