[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
juxtaposed with images of dead women and children who were killed by Israeli bombs simply because they were not Jewish [/quote]
lmao again!
Please, keep going I’m at work for a while longer[/quote]
it is true , it would be like if the Palestinians were successful , they could claim the reason they killed so many Jews was because they voted for Netanyahu
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Seventy-two percent of U.S. Muslims approved of the job President Barack Obama was doing as president during the first six months of 2014, higher than any other U.S. religious group Gallup tracks…[/quote]
A all Muslims bad ?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Seventy-two percent of U.S. Muslims approved of the job President Barack Obama was doing as president during the first six months of 2014, higher than any other U.S. religious group Gallup tracks…[/quote]
A all Muslims bad ?[/quote]
Edit:
Clearly 72% of them are.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Seventy-two percent of U.S. Muslims approved of the job President Barack Obama was doing as president during the first six months of 2014, higher than any other U.S. religious group Gallup tracks…[/quote]
A all Muslims bad ?[/quote]
Edit:
Clearly 72% of them are.[/quote]
so %51 of Americans are bad too ???
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Seventy-two percent of U.S. Muslims approved of the job President Barack Obama was doing as president during the first six months of 2014, higher than any other U.S. religious group Gallup tracks…[/quote]
A all Muslims bad ?[/quote]
Edit:
Clearly 72% of them are.[/quote]
so %51 of Americans are bad too ???[/quote]
Well at least one of them can’t recognise a joke. BTW, only 57.5% of eligible voters voted in 2012.
Didn’t Israel fund Islamic groups in order to break secular military forces in Gaza and the west bank? I am pretty sure Israel were the largest backers of Hamas financially over Fatah and the PLO.
I see the Israel situation as kind of an impossible situation to solve.
I can see why the jewish people after the horrors of the holocaust would create a jewish state, they even had the backing of many anti semites who viewed it as a way to get them out of Europe. Jewish bombings of the king david hotel jilling jews and muslims in similar attacks can also be understood in the same lense that many islamic bombings can be understood in places they occur.
So while I canunderstand both the formation of the Israeli state and the quite aggressive zionism that was a huge factor in its formation, i think people like me who support Israels right to exist, need to address the fact the native inhabitants were forced out, many killed, massacres during the first years of the birth of Israel were horrific.
If people just turned up in my city and forced the natives out, no matter how good Israels intentions decades on, people would never stop trying to kill the settlers and retake their land.
I know a few Israeli’s and most have quite a similar opinion as I have.
Israeli is as legitimate as all other nation states, all states were somewhat forged from conquer and warfare and domination, so singling out Israeli is wrong
The native population were ethnically cleansed, they were killed and displaced, alot of those displaced are still alive today, to expect them to just forget and their relatives to just forget is asking too much.
Hamas are despicable, they purposefully use human shields, they are oppressive to their own people and are anti semites. Israel however funded them over secular resistance and governance in the west bank and gazza. To ignore this and moan about islamic extremism being the representative of palestinian resistance is kind of two faced.
The majority of palestinians and israelis are regular people in an irregular situation. I think the best way to approach ending the conflict is cross community talks, especially with Israelis being the ones making the most effort. While they too are being targetted by hamas, I think we should recognise the huge disparity in casualties. This however does not mean palestinians who support a antisemitic regime should be given slack, just because they are oppressed, just as nationalistic rabid israelis should not be given a pass because Hamas lobs rockets at them.
I got banned from a leftist forum recently for bering “pro zionist”, which is laughable. I think alot of criticism of Israel is rooted in anti semitism and support for israel is largely rooted in nationalism and racism against muslims. I think hower both sides have some good points.
I think any other state in Israels position would do the same thing and is justified to respond to military operations against israeli citizens by Hamas with force.
Like the troubles in northern ireland, military force can not end a popular resistnace, no matter how shitty its politics. Dialogue helps everything.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
they could claim the reason they killed so many Jews was because they voted for Netanyahu[/quote]
um no. They have already stated they will kill them for being Jews and continue to try to do so every day.
I believe you’re completely missing the point, but that won’t stop you from continuing to post on the matter.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
All I have to say is fuck you all 
If you can not have a discussion that disagrees with your point of view , you have a little penis , OH I mean mind
[/quote]
You are certainly entitled to your own point of view.
You cannot have your own facts, however. Facts are facts.[/quote]
To consider some of my points , try these .
(1)Attacking Israel is a kin to attacking Jesus and this is why mixing Religion and policy , a bad thing .
(2) Palestine has no voice other than the so called liberal media that is being totally dismissed . ( NO MONEY = NO SPEECH )
[/quote]
The Nazarine you mention is not particularly important to Jewish people. And I am not sure what the Christian religion has to do with a genocidal arabs who like to lob missles as schools.
The arabs have more money than Israel. Look up the word “oil.”
The MSM is being dismissed because (finally) people can see they lie constantly. Even the MSM, with all their powers of propaganda, can’t make the arab side — that defends its missiles with civilians — look good against the Israeli side — that defends its civilians against missiles. [/quote]
Also forgotten is the Palestinians receive the most aid in the world - four times as other refugees, plus they have their own exclusive refugee agency the UNRWA, who for the third time have had Hamas rockets -which they’ve thoughtfully returned to Hamas -discovered under their premises.
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
The Israeli law of return unequivocally cements race at the center of the narrative.
[/quote]
How so? The majority of Mizrahim are of Arab descent are they not?
[/quote]
Nope. Mizrahim are not Arabs who have converted to Judaism, which they would have to be to prove the point you are trying to make.
Race isn’t simply about skin colour.
[/quote]
Actually it’s more complex than that. I’d be interested in what Jewbacca or someone more knowledgeable than me has to say but my understanding is that Israelites and Arabs are very closely related. The biblical account is that they are both Shemites and both descended from Abraham. The DNA evidence confirms a very close relationship as well. Additionally, many Mizrahim are descendants of Arabs who converted to Judaism.[/quote]
Well yes, the only difference between Jews and Arabs in some Jewish religious texts is that one says Shibboleth and the other Sibboleth, which rather poignantly shows the utter banality and pointlessness of the current conflict, and how artificial the imposed differences are. [/quote]
And for the Israelis the conflict has nothing to do with race. Just as for the English(who are mostly of Anglo-Saxon(Germanic) ancestry) the Second World War had nothing to do with race.[/quote]
Well its a bit of a one sided analysis. The Second World War was a rejection of the German conception of race. It certainly wasn’t race neutral.
What actually makes someone a Jew is highly difficult to disentangle. Which is one of the things that makes debating Israel so difficult. [/quote]
Not really. What makes someone a Jew in the religious sense? Someone who is a descendent of the Israelites on the maternal line or a convert to Judaism. What makes someone Jewish in an ethnic sense? Someone who is descended from the Israelites.
[/quote]
Ethnicity is essentially the same as race. You can have Israeli citizenship on the basis of being Israeli by ethnicity. Thus Israel does have a racial element!
[/quote]
You can be an Irish citizen on the basis of having an IRISH ancestor… SO WHAT? You can be a Bolivian citizen if you can prove that you have Bolivian ancestry…
This is not a “novel” concept here.
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I just thought this was effective.[/quote]
Almost every person in Britain who saw that imagine immediately thought of. . . .Belfast flattened to the ground with 1000s of innocents dead. . [/quote]
Very curious that “every person who saw picture in Britain” thought of the Irish when they looked at London being hit by missiles, since the last time London was hit by missiles was when the Nazis randomly dropped missiles all over civilians in London — in the exact same terror manner the arabs are dropping missiles all over Israel.
Well, no. In the more accurate comparison of Nazi bombardment of London with missiles, in response England (with American help) conducted massive firebombing of German civilian areas, primarily at night, (generally leaving the strategic bombing of fortified areas to the American day-time-raids) resulting the near-complete destruction of any German town with a population of over 100,000.
Dresden, in particular, was bombed in a manner so as to maximize civilian casualties. I believe 25,000 were killed in one night.
“The ultimate aim [of the the British attack on German civilians was] to break the morale of the population which occupies it. To ensure this, we must achieve two things: first, we must make the town physically uninhabitable and, secondly, we must make the people conscious of constant personal danger. The immediate aim, is therefore, twofold, namely, to produce (i) destruction and (ii) fear of death.” *
Hamas stated goal is not independence of Gaza as a nation for the arabs. A state was offered in 1930s and repeatedly since, most recently last week. Hamas’s stated goal is “the elimination of Jews from the entirety Palestine and the elimination of Israel.”
In short, Hamas’ goal is the genocide of my entire people.
Now, how does one “respect” the desire for genocide? How does one come to a “peaceful political settlement” with a someone who wants to kill your entire family?
What’s the offer: “OK, Hamas, here’s the deal. You wait 7 years before you attack and then you only get to kill 1/2 the Jews and you let 1/2 the Jews scatter to other countries?”
No one blinked when London attacked the genocidal nutbags in Germany in a far more vicious manner than Israel does Hamas.
To hold Israel to different standard is absurd.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
Didn’t Israel fund Islamic groups in order to break secular military forces in Gaza and the west bank? [/quote]
No. Hamas’ money comes from Iran.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Yep, but that was up to a point. Once Obama started being effective at knocking guys off it all changed.
[/quote]
That poll was taken two weeks ago.
Google Ramallah lynching. You can’t get any more hate filled than these animals.
The objective is to stop the rocket attacks. Not set examples. And any serious observer knows the IDF is the most humane military force in the world.
So the IDF and Hamas are equally guilty?
No, it’s a military operation.
You can’t unilaterally end a war. That’s something you, Obama and many other people just can’t seem to grasp.
Moral relativism and defeatism. Why not surprise me and try something else?
[/quote]
Call it what you want to. I’m just calling it what it is. If you want to justify bombing locations with kids, you are really no better than those who justify using kids to hide behind. You are basically playing their game at that point and sinking to their level.
The kids that survive are going to hate you and likely try to kill you for the rest of their existence. I know the person I am now would if I were in that same situation, and so would anyone with a pair of nuts.
Likewise, with the rocket attacks on Israel. If it were my skin on the line I’d be wanting blood too, and I’d hate back.
It’s exactly what I’m trying to point out… At this point we are all a bunch of idiot animals.
You know damned well, as ideological as YOU are, if you were in their situation you would be calling bloody murder on Israel. It just so happens you are where you are, and you were born where you were.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
Didn’t Israel fund Islamic groups in order to break secular military forces in Gaza and the west bank? [/quote]
No. Hamas’ money comes from Iran.
[/quote]
Of course it does now and even then, but Israel funded Hamas. They have been criticised by Israeli’s for supporting Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO and Fatah and offered intelligence on their secular rivals.
Hamas were helped in a big way by Mossad, especially in their infancy.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I just thought this was effective.[/quote]
Almost every person in Britain who saw that imagine immediately thought of. . . .Belfast flattened to the ground with 1000s of innocents dead. . [/quote]
Very curious that “every person who saw picture in Britain” thought of the Irish when they looked at London being hit by missiles, since the last time London was hit by missiles was when the Nazis randomly dropped missiles all over civilians in London — in the exact same terror manner the arabs are dropping missiles all over Israel.
Well, no. In the more accurate comparison of Nazi bombardment of London with missiles, in response England (with American help) conducted massive firebombing of German civilian areas, primarily at night, (generally leaving the strategic bombing of fortified areas to the American day-time-raids) resulting the near-complete destruction of any German town with a population of over 100,000.
Dresden, in particular, was bombed in a manner so as to maximize civilian casualties. I believe 25,000 were killed in one night.
“The ultimate aim [of the the British attack on German civilians was] to break the morale of the population which occupies it. To ensure this, we must achieve two things: first, we must make the town physically uninhabitable and, secondly, we must make the people conscious of constant personal danger. The immediate aim, is therefore, twofold, namely, to produce (i) destruction and (ii) fear of death.” *
Hamas stated goal is not independence of Gaza as a nation for the arabs. A state was offered in 1930s and repeatedly since, most recently last week. Hamas’s stated goal is “the elimination of Jews from the entirety Palestine and the elimination of Israel.”
In short, Hamas’ goal is the genocide of my entire people.
Now, how does one “respect” the desire for genocide? How does one come to a “peaceful political settlement” with a someone who wants to kill your entire family?
What’s the offer: “OK, Hamas, here’s the deal. You wait 7 years before you attack and then you only get to kill 1/2 the Jews and you let 1/2 the Jews scatter to other countries?”
No one blinked when London attacked the genocidal nutbags in Germany in a far more vicious manner than Israel does Hamas.
To hold Israel to different standard is absurd.[/quote]
To compare a few thousand rockets fired by Arabs that have killed almost no one to the Blitz seems incredibly biased.
Again I see Israeli military actions in response to rockets as justified, but when you approach it by comparing shitty rockets that almost never kill anyone to the utter destruction of the ariel bombardment of london, you are doing a disservice to your position, in my personal opinion.
However where I think you are spot on is when you say “to hold israel tpo a different standard is absurd” which I tend to agree with.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Yep, but that was up to a point. Once Obama started being effective at knocking guys off it all changed.
[/quote]
That poll was taken two weeks ago.
Google Ramallah lynching. You can’t get any more hate filled than these animals.
The objective is to stop the rocket attacks. Not set examples. And any serious observer knows the IDF is the most humane military force in the world.
So the IDF and Hamas are equally guilty?
No, it’s a military operation.
You can’t unilaterally end a war. That’s something you, Obama and many other people just can’t seem to grasp.
Moral relativism and defeatism. Why not surprise me and try something else?
[/quote]
Call it what you want to. I’m just calling it what it is. If you want to justify bombing locations with kids, you are really no better than those who justify using kids to hide behind. You are basically playing their game at that point and sinking to their level.
The kids that survive are going to hate you and likely try to kill you for the rest of their existence. I know the person I am now would if I were in that same situation, and so would anyone with a pair of nuts.
Likewise, with the rocket attacks on Israel. If it were my skin on the line I’d be wanting blood too, and I’d hate back.
It’s exactly what I’m trying to point out… At this point we are all a bunch of idiot animals.
You know damned well, as ideological as YOU are, if you were in their situation you would be calling bloody murder on Israel. It just so happens you are where you are, and you were born where you were. [/quote]
I’m no better than Hamas? Okay pal. Whatever you say. For the record, I don’t hate terrorists at all any more. I don’t even dislike them. Like I don’t hate a rattlesnake. I just accept it for what it is. I harbour no desire for revenge or hatred whatsoever. However I’m in the position of never having been a victim of terrorism. Many others have been.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I just thought this was effective.[/quote]
Almost every person in Britain who saw that imagine immediately thought of. . . .Belfast flattened to the ground with 1000s of innocents dead. . [/quote]
Very curious that “every person who saw picture in Britain” thought of the Irish when they looked at London being hit by missiles, since the last time London was hit by missiles was when the Nazis randomly dropped missiles all over civilians in London — in the exact same terror manner the arabs are dropping missiles all over Israel.
Well, no. In the more accurate comparison of Nazi bombardment of London with missiles, in response England (with American help) conducted massive firebombing of German civilian areas, primarily at night, (generally leaving the strategic bombing of fortified areas to the American day-time-raids) resulting the near-complete destruction of any German town with a population of over 100,000.
Dresden, in particular, was bombed in a manner so as to maximize civilian casualties. I believe 25,000 were killed in one night.
“The ultimate aim [of the the British attack on German civilians was] to break the morale of the population which occupies it. To ensure this, we must achieve two things: first, we must make the town physically uninhabitable and, secondly, we must make the people conscious of constant personal danger. The immediate aim, is therefore, twofold, namely, to produce (i) destruction and (ii) fear of death.” *
Hamas stated goal is not independence of Gaza as a nation for the arabs. A state was offered in 1930s and repeatedly since, most recently last week. Hamas’s stated goal is “the elimination of Jews from the entirety Palestine and the elimination of Israel.”
In short, Hamas’ goal is the genocide of my entire people.
Now, how does one “respect” the desire for genocide? How does one come to a “peaceful political settlement” with a someone who wants to kill your entire family?
What’s the offer: “OK, Hamas, here’s the deal. You wait 7 years before you attack and then you only get to kill 1/2 the Jews and you let 1/2 the Jews scatter to other countries?”
No one blinked when London attacked the genocidal nutbags in Germany in a far more vicious manner than Israel does Hamas.
To hold Israel to different standard is absurd.[/quote]
To compare a few thousand rockets fired by Arabs that have killed almost no one to the Blitz seems incredibly biased.
Again I see Israeli military actions in response to rockets as justified, but when you approach it by comparing shitty rockets that almost never kill anyone to the utter destruction of the ariel bombardment of london, you are doing a disservice to your position, in my personal opinion.
However where I think you are spot on is when you say “to hold israel tpo a different standard is absurd” which I tend to agree with.[/quote]
It’s more comparable than you think.
The Nazis launched 1402 V-2s at London and 2,419 V-1s.
There have been 10,138 rocket attacks on Israel since 2001 and 4,890 artillery attacks.
Does our Iron Dome system and omnipresent bomb shelters help keep death down? Yes, it does.
[quote]ScholesGoals wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I just thought this was effective.[/quote]
Almost every person in Britain who saw that imagine immediately thought of. . . .Belfast flattened to the ground with 1000s of innocents dead. . [/quote]
Very curious that “every person who saw picture in Britain” thought of the Irish when they looked at London being hit by missiles, since the last time London was hit by missiles was when the Nazis randomly dropped missiles all over civilians in London — in the exact same terror manner the arabs are dropping missiles all over Israel.
Well, no. In the more accurate comparison of Nazi bombardment of London with missiles, in response England (with American help) conducted massive firebombing of German civilian areas, primarily at night, (generally leaving the strategic bombing of fortified areas to the American day-time-raids) resulting the near-complete destruction of any German town with a population of over 100,000.
Dresden, in particular, was bombed in a manner so as to maximize civilian casualties. I believe 25,000 were killed in one night.
“The ultimate aim [of the the British attack on German civilians was] to break the morale of the population which occupies it. To ensure this, we must achieve two things: first, we must make the town physically uninhabitable and, secondly, we must make the people conscious of constant personal danger. The immediate aim, is therefore, twofold, namely, to produce (i) destruction and (ii) fear of death.” *
Hamas stated goal is not independence of Gaza as a nation for the arabs. A state was offered in 1930s and repeatedly since, most recently last week. Hamas’s stated goal is “the elimination of Jews from the entirety Palestine and the elimination of Israel.”
In short, Hamas’ goal is the genocide of my entire people.
Now, how does one “respect” the desire for genocide? How does one come to a “peaceful political settlement” with a someone who wants to kill your entire family?
What’s the offer: “OK, Hamas, here’s the deal. You wait 7 years before you attack and then you only get to kill 1/2 the Jews and you let 1/2 the Jews scatter to other countries?”
No one blinked when London attacked the genocidal nutbags in Germany in a far more vicious manner than Israel does Hamas.
To hold Israel to different standard is absurd.[/quote]
To compare a few thousand rockets fired by Arabs that have killed almost no one to the Blitz seems incredibly biased.
Again I see Israeli military actions in response to rockets as justified, but when you approach it by comparing shitty rockets that almost never kill anyone to the utter destruction of the ariel bombardment of london, you are doing a disservice to your position, in my personal opinion.
However where I think you are spot on is when you say “to hold israel tpo a different standard is absurd” which I tend to agree with.[/quote]
Just because someone is really bad at something and really ineffective, doesn’t change the intent and doesn’t mean that the intent should be ignored. The Hamas rockets are launched with the intent on killing Jews, period. Just because they are bad at it doesn’t mean that should be forgotten. If they were more efficient the total civilian casualties would be greatly one-sided the other way. Civilians are the targets of Hamas. Civilians are collateral damage of Israel and most are directly caused by Hamas themselves.
Also, to your point about the original people being displaced. You are aware that a two state solution was proposed after WWII and agreed upon by the Jews, but rejected by the Palestinians. This led to the Palestinians starting a war to conqueror and displace or kill the Jews living in the region but they lost. Each conflict since that time has been with that same single-minded purpose. Rid Palestine (which is Israel) of Jews by conquering and displacing or killing them. How is it that everyone forgets that little agenda whenever they suggest that if Israel just lets them have Gaza and the West bank that that will make them so happy that there will be peace?? What fools those people are.
How does Israel negotiate peace with a group whose only goal, is to wipe them off the face of the earth?
Seriously?
For serious?