[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
-some fat chick[/quote]
FTFY
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
and i don’t understand why you keep bringing up these extreme cases as if anyone with ambition fits into such a mould.
[/quote]
I have to go soon, but I will comment fast here.
I don’t understand why you don’t understand. The topic of this thread shows that I am speaking of men who feel they are entitled to things, not ambitious men. Ambitious men don’t think they are going to be handed a high salary without working.
I also speak in VERY general terms here. When I was single, I attracted and went on dates with women who earned far more than me. As a matter of fact, I had short term relationship with a woman who earned over twice as much as I was. That ended for other concrete reasons other than income disparity. I also used to spend a lot of time with a woman from a well-to-do family from the Northshore of Long Island. I also went on dates with a few lawyer women, but again, the match was not compatible for other reasons or timing, or whatever.
And I didn’t say people shouldn’t try hard at whatever or keep their options open. I am speaking of men for whom this thread fits: those who feel ENTITLED, not some guys who just happen to stumble upon some women higher earning, smarter, or more attractive than they. It’s one thing for something to actually HAPPEN, and another to feel entitled to it! Apparently Sodini and Rodger thought they had certain things coming to them when in fact they weren’t. And as I said, not all men with feelings of entitlement go on shooting sprees. Some lead lives of desperation without bothering anyone. Well, don’t bother anyway except for some of the co-workers they annoy in the cases of men who feel they should be paid to sit on their ass while others pick up the slack because for some bizarre reason they believe the world owes them a living without work done.
You’re befuddled when meanwhile the men this thread focuses on are troubled men. If I wanted to discuss ambitious or lucky men, I would start a thread titled, “Ambitious and Lucky Men”. [/quote]
i already addressed my view on the entitlement issue:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
You are using mentally ill people with very obvious delusions of grandeur as examples. What does this have to do with the rest of us? Marrying someone of a much higher social class or getting a much higher salary than the norm isn’t a delusion in itself.[/quote]
I was not just speaking of mentally ill people. There are MANY men who believe that they are entitled to beautiful women or should only be trying to obtain dates with beautiful women, some of whom also have mental illness such as depression or substance abuse resulting from their lack of women.
Believing one deserves a high salary despite not having the necessary skills, education, training, and wherewithal is delusional in my book and for simply existing and thinking about without being born to a rich and powerful family is delusional in my book. [/quote]
Understood. But there are degrees of delusion. Someone with such beliefs of entitlement probably has it just below that of the mentally ill. People who posess the required character traits to achieve what you have wrtten would not be alone at home wallowing in depression waiting for life to give them a handout.[/quote]
Despite your thread title, i am having a hard time not inferring that you are equating people that set their sights higher with those of unsound mind. Sane people do not simply forgo an 8.5 because they feel entitled to a 9.5 and sometimes get depressed enough to kill. In this case, we might as well be discussing mental illness instead.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And TECHNICALLY it is not delusional to think one can “marry up” but I think in the real world it is simply because it is so unlikely that one can waste enormous amounts of time and energy in waiting on or trying for it. [/quote]
My 2nd brother just did. Very high up. [/quote]
And that makes it common? N=1 sorry
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
Anonymous[/quote]
So beta male talk
(I agree doe)
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
Anonymous[/quote]
So beta male talk
(I agree doe)[/quote]
I dont.
If she does not make my dick hard, no dice.
That may be superficial , well, I am how God made me.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
Anonymous[/quote]
So beta male talk
(I agree doe)[/quote]
I dont.
If she does not make my dick hard, no dice.
That may be superficial , well, I am how God made me.
[/quote]
Lol not sure where you are getting she doesn’t make your dick hard. Beauty normally does that. IMO it’s unfair to date someone you are truly not fully attracted to you. Basis for a poor relationship
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
Anonymous[/quote]
So beta male talk
(I agree doe)[/quote]
I dont.
If she does not make my dick hard, no dice.
That may be superficial , well, I am how God made me.
[/quote]
Lol not sure where you are getting she doesn’t make your dick hard. Beauty normally does that. IMO it’s unfair to date someone you are truly not fully attracted to you. Basis for a poor relationship [/quote]
If people want to put it in vulgar terms, then fine: we shouldn’t be with women who don’t arouse us. However, there are many women who are not beautiful, but rather considered cute, average, or “attractive” (whatever this term means) who can turn any normal guy on. I refuse to believe that there are some men who are ONLY able to be aroused by a drop dead gorgeous woman and I don’t think orion has ONLY been with Ford runway material.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
Anonymous[/quote]
So beta male talk
(I agree doe)[/quote]
I dont.
If she does not make my dick hard, no dice.
That may be superficial , well, I am how God made me.
[/quote]
Lol not sure where you are getting she doesn’t make your dick hard. Beauty normally does that. IMO it’s unfair to date someone you are truly not fully attracted to you. Basis for a poor relationship [/quote]
If people want to put it in vulgar terms, then fine: we shouldn’t be with women who don’t arouse us. However, there are many women who are not beautiful, but rather considered cute, average, or “attractive” (whatever this term means) who can turn any normal guy on. I refuse to believe that there are some men who are ONLY able to be aroused by a drop dead gorgeous woman and I don’t think orion has ONLY been with Ford runway material. [/quote]
That is true.
I just dont like the personality is all approach.
[quote]magick wrote:
I share the same self-esteem problem.
Mind telling how you got over yours? [/quote]
I not only dealt with low self-esteem. I dealt with years of on-and-off clinical depression.
Here’s how I solved nearly all of it. I say nearly all of it, because if I am not careful, I am afraid I will spiral into depression again, which has not happened in a long time, thank goodness.
- Looking at the world in realistic terms. That is, coming to the realization, despite what the news and entertainment media tell us, one does not NEED extreme popularity, extreme wealth, model looks, or whatever other characteristic that is unattainable by most, to attract enough women. (I can already hear in response to this one, “But are da chics gonna be hawt?” Anyway… )
- Psychotherapy from a very good psychologist.
- Going on a LOT of dates, and yes, though it might not be advisable for most, going through what some would call a “man-whore” phase. I don’t advise this, and if I were single with the experience I have now because of it, would not do it again because of my changed views on sex and women.
- Being very careful with whom I come close. This involved canning some people who I always considered friends but were no good for me. I am now more careful in even my use of the word friend. I think some people just stay with the same “friends” simply because they know some people for so long that it would be odd to sever contact. I had some friends whom I think I subconsciously remained friends with simply because I knew them since childhood when after all this time, so many negative things happened between us. It’s like in some feminized way, I thought the friendships were worth “saving” or “fighting for”. I have too many people in my life who think highly of me that I don’t have to drive myself nuts by being with people who are deceptive, immoral, highly annoying, or bottom feeding.
- Exercise.
I agree with some here who say that self-esteem needs to be worked on in order to have meaningful relationships with women and friendships with other men. However, the matter is twofold because if one remains without a woman, then no, it’s likely a man will have a healthy self image. That is, if a man goes for YEARS without a woman, then yes, he will likely be one miserable man!
The same concept holds true with money. No, one doesn’t NEED a life of luxury to lead a decent life considering the concept of luxury, something that isn’t needed but definitely is satisfying or fun to have or do. On the other hand, it’s doubtful one’s self-image can remain intact if bills can’t even be paid.
No money or woman, no self-esteem.
[quote]
I keep telling myself I’ll get over mine once I build an awesome physique and get that 100k+/year job in a couple of years, but I know in the back of my head that those are all lies.[/quote]
This reasoning is flawed because it implies there is something wrong with earning less than $100,00+ per year when many worthy jobs being done in this world aren’t yielding that income. It also implies something is wrong with an ordinary physique which is certainly flawed and most men do not have an amazing physique and they’re doing just fine with women. See what I said in the “Bodybuilders Don’t Get Laid Thread”. There’s more important stuff to take care of in a relationship than hitting the weights.
Right.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
Anonymous[/quote]
So beta male talk
(I agree doe)[/quote]
I dont.
If she does not make my dick hard, no dice.
That may be superficial , well, I am how God made me.
[/quote]
Lol not sure where you are getting she doesn’t make your dick hard. Beauty normally does that. IMO it’s unfair to date someone you are truly not fully attracted to you. Basis for a poor relationship [/quote]
If people want to put it in vulgar terms, then fine: we shouldn’t be with women who don’t arouse us. However, there are many women who are not beautiful, but rather considered cute, average, or “attractive” (whatever this term means) who can turn any normal guy on. I refuse to believe that there are some men who are ONLY able to be aroused by a drop dead gorgeous woman and I don’t think orion has ONLY been with Ford runway material. [/quote]
That is true.
I just dont like the personality is all approach. [/quote]
It’s not all, but to varying degrees it is a hell of a lot, and as time goes on I think it becomes much more important than initial attractiveness.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
“You don’t love a woman because she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful because you love her.”
Anonymous[/quote]
So beta male talk
(I agree doe)[/quote]
I dont.
If she does not make my dick hard, no dice.
That may be superficial , well, I am how God made me.
[/quote]
Lol not sure where you are getting she doesn’t make your dick hard. Beauty normally does that. IMO it’s unfair to date someone you are truly not fully attracted to you. Basis for a poor relationship [/quote]
If people want to put it in vulgar terms, then fine: we shouldn’t be with women who don’t arouse us. However, there are many women who are not beautiful, but rather considered cute, average, or “attractive” (whatever this term means) who can turn any normal guy on. I refuse to believe that there are some men who are ONLY able to be aroused by a drop dead gorgeous woman and I don’t think orion has ONLY been with Ford runway material. [/quote]
That is true.
I just dont like the personality is all approach. [/quote]
It’s not all, but to varying degrees it is a hell of a lot, and as time goes on I think it becomes much more important than initial attractiveness.
[/quote]
Of course, but that is not really eye opening, is it.
You no want to bone her, you no want to bone her.
But, if you do, and that wears of, personalty matters.
[quote]Claudan wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
All this talk about Elliott Rodger got me thinking, and much of the talk reminds me of George Sodini, the guy who shot a few women in an LA Fitness gym.
[/quote]
Where/when/how do people develop a capacity for love?
In my opinion it comes from the mother. It’s the mother who needs to teach the son about love, patience and understanding. Obviously these idiots were so misguided that they were quicker to look outwards for problem-solving instead of inwards.
It’s something that has been occupying my mind lately because I’m speaking to one of my ex-girlfriends and she complains so much about how this guy or that guy would be perfect for her if they just showed some interest.
How the fuck do people grow up to become so oblivious?[/quote]
I am not sure they weren’t raised right. George Sodini spoke of his brother who was successful in his career and had a marriage. Well, how loving that marriage is beyond me. Who knows?
My mom is a very loving woman and spoiled and still does spoiled me in many ways. Well, now she attempts to still spoil me, but it doesn’t always work out. I believe she compensated because of my bottom-feeding, sinfully lazy dad who she divorced long ago. She probably thought, “I am taking over this family or this family is going nowhere.”
Meanwhile my brother and I have completely different personalities and tendencies. He not once had a self-esteem issue while I did. Not once in his life did he think, “Am I ever going to get a woman who likes me?” or “Am I ever going to be in love?” or “I am going to die alone”.
Perhaps these guys were misguided but they could have just turned out the way they did because despite parenting styles, people can still encounter all sorts of problems or lead their lives nothing like the way their parents did or espoused.
I am certain these two men could have had women if they had normal social skills and a healthier outlook on life.
Elliot Rodger did lead a tumultuous life from what I gather and was mercilessly bullied. However, he probably could have nabbed a petite bookworm, perhaps the type of person some would refer to as “mousy” or “a nerd” I believe, maybe even a cute one. Do I think he could have attracted the strapping, blonde Nordic women he fantasized about? No, I don’t. But he felt entitled to them, so much that he was driven mad and right in his own words sought out to kill such women.
I don’t think George Sodini was good looking, but he was ordinary looking and I’m convinced he could have had opportunities with more than enough women in his life in the twenty years that he spent without so much as kissing one. From the way he spoke and wrote, it was clear his thinking and worldview were completely warped and it seemed he too was another one fixated on beautiful women when he could have had some cute or ordinary women considering he worked out, appeared healthy, and had an alright job and a modest home. Seriously, if a guy has those things and doesn’t find a woman, it’s likely something is off. Personally I’d find dating, screwing, or even marrying ordinary women to be far more fulfilling than being lonely and celibate.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Variation, repetition, progressive overload, ROM training. These are things you can apply to life too, stuff like jobs, meeting women, making friends, learning things. Those same things help you develop a healthy understanding of your limits, become confident within those limits, and learn to push and improve.
“ROM based training” applied to real life: if you want to be comfortable and confident around intelligent attractive women, you can work on that with intelligent but unattractive women, and learn to hold your own: keep them interested, have engaging enjoyable conversations. Learn to be interesting enough that intelligent women are attracted to you for your intellect. Meanwhile, later, get yourself comfortable around dumb attractive women: flirt with hot bartenders, hostesses, waitresses… people that you actually have a reason to talk to and can “practice” with. Work yourself past “she’s hot, I’m intimidated and nervous”.
You master both of those, and that should take you a good bit of the way to talking with and enjoying women who are both intelligent and attractive.
Just break down the problem, and apply the techniques you already know toward it. And pay attention to yourself and how you react to things. Hell, even something like a training log might help.
“Progressive overload” can be applied in a similar way to what they call “exposure therapy”. Lets say you have trouble meeting people. Start with something easy, and just make a tiny bit of small talk with someone you’re already interacting with – e.g., the cashier at a gas station or grocery store. Tomorrow, do that with two people. The next day, have a slightly longer conversation with someone. Eventually, learn to strike up an interesting conversation with a random stranger. Just keep working on it, pushing the boundaries, and you’ll keep improving.
Some people make faster progress than others, but these same lessons and strategies can be applied to anything, not just lifting more weight.[/quote]
Good advice LoRez. Personally, I feel like I always have to improve myself, in all areas of my life to avoid living without purpose. I know some people are probably content always maintaining a set level of happiness, or aiming for greater happiness regardless of cost. I believe you need to take time to look introspectively to find what you want, and then to go after those things.
Can I ask what your experience(s) have been?
[quote]orion wrote:
Of course, but that is not really eye opening, is it.[/quote]
Yes it is! Initial attraction is definitely important, but in the long run, or in the case of lasting marriage, other stuff is VERY important: personality, child raising, in-laws, recreation, money, and so on.
[quote]
You no want to bone her, you no want to bone her. [/quote]
Bro, you are not talking to fifteen year old porn addicts. Do you realize this? We learned long ago that attraction to a partner is important. Some of us have moved on from this though.
[quote]
But, if you do, and that wears of, personalty matters.[/quote]
Yeah, especially considering beautiful women are not infallible, despite what the entertainment media wants us to believe. Mass media and porn want everyone to believe that attractive women are some type of mythological creatures that don’t have stinking breath or don’t have any other annoying characteristic one can think of.
[quote]orion wrote:
I just dont like the personality is all approach. [/quote]
That’s not how I interpret that quote and it’s not what I was trying to say. Way I see it, it’s describing the difference between thinking of beauty as something that’s skin deep and something to fall for in its own right, versus using beautiful as an adjective for someone you’ve fallen for and something that transcends simple physical/sexual attraction. If you’re repulsed by fat/ugly chicks then you’re not going to fall for one, no matter how great their personality, are you?
This guy has an entire Youtube channel dedicated to bashing women. Why I Cheat - MGTOW - YouTube
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Money/Power and good looks are only part of the equation. It’s how you make a woman FEEL that will determine if you get past the first minute of conversation or end up in the sack with her. Women respond to primarily to status, which is VERY subjective. Now, if the woman is a “nine” and subscribes to the “tribe” of “rich powerful debutantes”, then if you’re not from a rich family, you won’t get past hello. But if she’s somewhat grounded and open minded, then I think a man who can give her that “tingle”, be he rich or poor, handsome or ugly, has a chance.
I’ve noticed in my own career the women I tend to attract varies. When I was a lower paid electrician going through the apprenticeship and just starting out I was middle class, but I played rugby and and had a very powerful physique and some high status with my rugby team. So I was able to attract 8’s pretty consistently.
Then I got into the mortgage business and opened a few companies with the money I earned from that and I grew to a more upper class income/lifestyle. I drove a BMW and a Lexus, wore suits everyday, kicked ass making a lot of money with what was essentially my own business ( I set my own hours and didn’t “work FOR” anyone). I also lost a lot of muscle mass, but still kept my six pack. I was able to attract 9’s easily and even some 9.5’s. I looked pretty good and had high status and made a lot of money.
Then the market took a shit, I got divorced, lost A LOT of income/assets and was limping along with my financial obligations and income. Still had a lot of “social proof” from my more successful days, but the 9.5’s weren’t very easy to get anymore. I was able to attract one or two during those years, but it was back down to the 8’s for this guy.
Then the gov’t decided to yank my mortgage career out from under me with regulation changes and I was forced to start finding work wherever I could. So I started bartending and doing side electrical work. As a bartender, I was awesome - made 700 to a G a night and I was back to banging 9’s! It wasn’t “mortgage money”, but it was pretty good and I was able to leverage my STATUS to attract women. Being the bartender and “owning” that persona allowed me to appear to have a higher status than many of the customers who made FAR more money than I did. I was playing to their fantasies.
Then I went down to the gulf of Mexico, started working on oil rigs, made some money, but I wasn’t really “on shore” enough to go out and pull very consistently. It was pretty hit or miss most nights, and inconsistent with the quality (don’t worry, I didn’t bang any trolls).
Then I moved back to VA, got a really good electrical job which I leveraged into an even better electrical job working with critical power systems. I’m making some serious loot for an electrician (I’ll easily make more than 220K this year). So NOW, I’m an “upper class, blue collar” guy. I make more than many “upper class” and “successful” guys in my area. But I am an ELECTRICIAN. I get my hands dirty. I have to wake up at 4:45AM. I drive a truck with a company logo. So I’m back down to 8’s again.
Now that’s not saying that if I go to a wedding or “formal event” or something and clean up really nice I can’t attract a really attractive woman in the 9 range - I can. But it’s funny when I finally answer the question, “what do you do?” and I actually give them a straight answer, you can almost SEE the lights of attraction going out in their eyes… Like a balloon deflating - the spark just dies and literally NOTHING I do can rekindle it. It’s pretty interesting to me to see it because I have a pretty good understanding of social dynamics/women and it’s SOOOOO predictable. I mean I could have her laughing her ass off, touching me, giving me some serious interest and thinking to myself, “yeah, I got this”, but then the “occupational” question comes up. If I dodge the question and keep it playful, I can hold her interest for a bit longer and hopefully develop some rapport that isn’t just skin deep. But if I fail to “connect” with her on more than a superficial level and she learns that I have a blue collar career, she’s usually gone in less than five minutes. Like fucking clockwork. Now I’m talking about NINES in that scenario - most people don’t have the balls to even APPROACH a nine. But that’s not hard for me, what’s hard for me is to keep her interested once she finds out that I don’t fit into that little “box” she’s been building for herself since she became aware of her beauty and was told from a young age not to “waste” it.
8’s and 8.5’s are pretty consistent for me with my current situation, though. In fact, there’s a 7 that I’m really comfortable with, have a great time with and can just really relax and enjoy her company. Is she as “hawt” as some of the other women I know that I could choose to spend time with? Nope. But do I have a great time when I’m with her? Yup. She ain’t “perfect”, but I’ve had damn near perfect and it was kind of a pain in the ass most of the time and required a LOT of work to maintain. I work too many hours to worry about all that shit now. LOL
Sorry about the novel, but this is topic that I find very interesting.
Regarding the OP, I think it’s spot on in MOST cases. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but generally speaking, Brick is spot on. Here’s the takeaway: if you want to attract beautiful woman, BECOME the guy that beautiful women are attracted to. You have to change YOURSELF, not figure out a way to change them. You can fool anyone for little bit, but what don’t come out in the wash, will come out in the rinse. And then, if you’ve lied, you are revealed to be the pathetic loser that you are. So don’t lie. Just become the most awesome version of you that you can.[/quote]
AC left you a message in G+
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Money/Power and good looks are only part of the equation. It’s how you make a woman FEEL that will determine if you get past the first minute of conversation or end up in the sack with her. Women respond to primarily to status, which is VERY subjective. Now, if the woman is a “nine” and subscribes to the “tribe” of “rich powerful debutantes”, then if you’re not from a rich family, you won’t get past hello. But if she’s somewhat grounded and open minded, then I think a man who can give her that “tingle”, be he rich or poor, handsome or ugly, has a chance.
[/quote]
Thanks for the informative and entertaining post. You obviously have a lot of life experience to share here.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
And TECHNICALLY it is not delusional to think one can “marry up” but I think in the real world it is simply because it is so unlikely that one can waste enormous amounts of time and energy in waiting on or trying for it. [/quote]
It’s completely delusion if your sole goal is to marry up.
It comes down to the reasoning behind the action. I’m sure there are plenty of married guys who would say they married up, and plenty of women who say the same. The key difference is that they didn’t go out in life with the sole purpose of “marrying up”… it just happened.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
AC left you a message in G+[/quote]
Hit u back