[quote]arramzy wrote:
[quote]trivium wrote:
[quote]arramzy wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
I’m not a amazing squatter by any means but decent so I’ll cue in. I squat low bar and had this issue for months. Remedying it was fairly simple. Just move your hands out as far as needed till the your chest can be locked in place and there be no stress on the elbows. If you continue trying what you are eventually the stress will lead to your shoulders as well and its not something you want to deal with. I promise you can keep a tight back and upright posture with your arms out. I manage it fine and I even bought a 8ft Squat Bar just so I could move them out even further. [/quote]
While I understand your position, I am personally of the belief that using poor mobility is not a valid excuse to have your hands wide. I mean certainly a huge man like CYC who weighs in like 165kg, has enough meat and long enough arms to need to be out to the collars, but if you watch all the best squatting (I mean raw or at least walked out squats) by lifters 105kg or lighter, most have quite narrow hands because of the advantages it provides for establishing not only muscular tightness, but creating a more stable and powerful ‘attachment’ to the bar.
Regarding the original issue with elbows, some sleeves are always a good temporary bandaid. I have also had a lot of success with just a huge variety of light exercises for all the muscles involved in supination/pronation of the forearm, including the muscles of the arm. I also echo support for voodoo bands which work great. Solving the issue will also involve a bunch of work on scapular mobility (which will also pay off on the bench) and mobilizing the anterior delts and chest. Also, learning to squeeze the elbows under the bar and pull the bar into the back often helps people decrese strain on the shoulder.[/quote]
I would like to preface this by saying that I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, I just want to OP to get the whole solution to his problem.
I could be wrong at several points in this post, so someone correct me if I am wrong so that I can learn.
I disagree with “scapular mobility” part here. Making the scapula more mobile will do nothing for him unless he cannot retract them for some reason. The only thing that I can see that might hamper his scapular mobility would be a tight deltoid, which I am pretty sure a very, very small percentage of the population is walking around with. He needs to work on glenohumoral mobility and build upper back strength/size.
I also disagree with exclusively using supination/pronation work as the issue is much more likely to involve forced loaded extension, causing him pain in his flexors on his medial humoral epicondyle. This will not be remedied with exclusive supination and pronation work because in the flexed position (the position of the injury) the biceps brachii (supinator) nor the brachioradialis/pronator teres (pronators) may not be engaged in that position. If he only supinates and pronates, he will miss out on musculature that is being affected to a greater degree (those attached to the common flexor tendon).
He is much more likely to be trying to grip the bar hard which creates tension on the medial epicondyle, and then having the weight push his wrist into extension, which creates massive tensile forces on those muscles resulting in an overuse injury.
Solving the issue will be a mix of light stretching various tendons/ligaments in the shoulder (he may have tight delts, but probably not), a lot of what Fletch said, the old RICE technique, and overall avoidance of the cause via correction of form.
In other words, there is no need for a voodoo band if you are doing it the right way. If anything he will get much more out of using wrist wraps to resist forced flexion and aid in prevention. Plus he can actively use those in his other lifts (press, bench, etc). Those will be a much better purchase.
Also, pushing your elbows under the bar, while it may be proper form recommendation, may actually cause inflammation of the ligaments on the medial side of his elbow, which may also be in need of some TLC. If anything this will not help relieve pain at the joint in question. Yes he has some shoulder issues, but we appear to be in a pickle here as he may have to choose between elbow pain with stretching of those elbow ligaments and shoulder pain from stretching under the bar. It is a much more appropriate recommendation in this case for him to use a wider grip. This may solve both issues simultaneously and still allow him to be tight for the lift.[/quote]
First off, no offense taken and you have made several excellent points. In order of things addressed:
-
I actually have found for myself and three other seperate people who have dealt with pain from a narrow hand position on the squat that rolling medially and inferiorly to the scapula has helped them decrease ROM on the bench, and more comfortably retract the shoulders into position such that they feel less externally rotating torque on the elbow joint (not exactly the best wording but you get what I mean… decreased tension on the common flexor tendon etc.)
-
Your point regarding the biceps involvement is confusing to me… In the squat position the biceps brachii, brachialis, pronator teres, (I am still not an expert on the discrepencies in roles of all the bloody forearm muscles haha) and certainly the brachialis is engaged for the purposes of the retraction of the bar (at least the way I always teach people to squeeze the bar) and the characteristic pain running from the lateral epicondyle down along brachioradialis is almost certainly involving the muscles of the forearm (most of which are either supinators or pronators). I will admit that brachialis is obviously not involved in either sup/pro and yes is often a contributor so that was a good point to add in.
-
I particularily when you say “He is much more likely to be trying to grip the bar hard which creates tension on the medial epicondyle, and then having the weight push his wrist into extension, which creates massive tensile forces on those muscles resulting in an overuse injury.” and in my opinion the answer to this is not RICE and in fact is the general movement I suggested. These muscles you talk about are indeed all the muscles along the anterior forearm that anchor on the medial epicondyles and of course those anchoring the suprachondylar ridge, namely brachioradialis
Anyways, this is why I recommon the light work. I believe that since these tendons are so poorly vascularized that encouraging more blood flow is productive for healing and given that the vast majority of these muscles are involved in supination or pronation, it is a simple approach to providing light stimulation. Forgive me if my anatomy is a bit fuzzy (Im a first yr med student so I still havent locked down too many details haha!). Anyways, appreciated your interesting thoughts.[/quote]
I just spend 40 minutes writing an awesome response, and then when I went to submit it, it didn’t go up for some reason.
TLDRW:
It isnt a shoulder thing, its a wrist extension thing.
Dont overthink it. He has a form of golfer’s elbow.
RICE is the treatment with some stretching, and massage.
Movement is good, but he will need more than just supination/pronation as these muscles are likely not injured at all. Promotion of blood flow is nice, but it is not the magic bullet here.
Moving his hands out does address all of his potential issues (likely bilateral ME and a shoulder issue on one side that is undiagnosed), as does the use of wrist wraps.
Hand position and back tightness are not necessarily correlated. Paul Carter is right here. I do believe that hands add stability and balance to the lift, but saying that your hands have to be in an uncomfortable or unnatural position is insane. Our anatomy and past medical history varies too much person to person to generalize like that. When you get into cadaver lab, and do your surgical work you will see what I mean.
Also, here is some badass footage of dudes gettin it done with the widest grip possible…no grip.
