I know this is not a new discussion, and I’m pretty sure this will create a lot of flames, but anyway…
For the past 2 years I’ve tried several forms of creatine - from simple creatine powder, to creatine serum (“liquid” creatine) to SAN’s V12. With all of them I’ve experienced the same results: I do get “bigger” - mostly due to water retention - and possibly slightly stronger, but I gain no more muscle mass than “off” creatine.
After going off and on for a while I simply realized that as long as my objective is ONLY to build lean muscle mass, creatine won’t help. I’ve actually achieved much better gains by going for better form than for more weight, and creatine doesn’t help me achieve better form at all.
So considering the side effects - water retention and wasted money - back 3 months ago I decided to stop. And after 3 months, looking at my gains chart, I’m actually gaining sligthly more mass now than I did when on creatine.
I know there are some people who swear by creatine for lean muscle mass gains - but but maybe it is psychological… Because you look bigger and you lift more you might think you’re actually gaining muscle mass…
So, I believe that while creatine can increase “athletic performance” that doesn’t necessarily mean that it helps increase your lean muscle mass. In my case, it simply does not.
You know it’s funny you should begin this thread. About 4 years ago I had such a horrible experience with creatine I promised myself I would never use it again. I was using a popular brand of creatine I made some good gains I was retaining a lot of water when I got into a bad car accident, took a little time off (ok I tooka week off the gym called to me and I couldn’t leave), started taking the creatine again, and my body went into schock, my blood pressure went very low, and if not for my ex fiance I would have died (I refused to go to the hospital she made me)
That makes no sence you grow better without it. Creatine is the almost hands down choice as the best supplement there is and for good reason.
Yes using better form will provide better gains, but how does creatine make you train with worse form? There are 0 studies out there (not done by a manufacturer) that found creatine to increase 1RM strength, it does increase endurance though. Just use your normal weight with good forum and dont be tempted to go heavy because you think creatine will make you stronger.
Some people do respond better than others to creatine, but it makes no sence that you actually grow better without it than with it. Do you take it with something high GI like gatorade? If not you should. I could list a bunch of facts on what it does and how it helps and all but t-nation summed it up perfectly in an article a couple years ago.
I’ve had good results with creatine. By personal best on bench press was back when I was using it. The first time I loaded with it was rewarding. The only problem I had was using grape juice as my sugar source. It led to a problem my freind and I called The Gurgle. It can make a great laxative.
There was quite a bit of stuff you left out of your post. has your diet changed? what about your calorie intake? there are too many variables to count that you left out of your post that could change the effects and results that you have seen.
I will say that I will and probably always will stand by creatine for one specific reason. It prevents me from being overtrained. It speeds my recovery and in my opinion it really helps with my mind-muscle connection just simply because of the fact that I can feel my blood in muscles better than without.
I also notice for me at least that my nutrient delivery is better. My hair and my nails grow faster, my vitamins are more readily absorbed, and I actually dont feel as full when I eat because I feel my digestion is actually quicker.
Several years ago the popular climbing magazine, Rock and Ice, ran an article on the benefits of creatine for climbers. Not for the muscle building benefits, heck, the last thing a climber wants is an extra 5 lbs of water weight to drag up the wall. But rather for the increase in muscle endurance and quicker recovery.
When lifting, I definitely notice that I recover quicker between sets when taking creatine. For me, that translates into better quality workouts, which in turn means more muscle mass for my time spent in the gym.
I can’t believe some people are still using liquid creatine in spite of numerous tests showing it has no creatine in it or not enough to be efficacious.
Anyway, here’s a good creatine article from the T-Nation archives:
A couple items to keep in mind about creatine supplementation. The water retention is not merely aesthetic. Meaning, yeah you will look and maybe feel bigger on the stuff, but the intra-cellular water creates a better environment for protein sythesis. If a cell is better hydrated, it’s a healthier cell. Plus, creatine increases CP stores which allows you body to produce more ATP (the fuel used for anaerobic exercise). Therefore, your strength endurance is a bit better, as well as your 1RM (typically), therefore you are placing greater stress on the muscle fibers (ie, more load or longer load that otherwise). Combined with the heightened recovery times and hydration, you have a recipe to build more muscle, not just look better nekid! Yes, you will lose the water weight when you cycle off creatine, but if you are anabolically supporting your body, you should have a net gain of LBM.
As far as creatine effects varying from one to the next, of course it does. Some people have a lower threshold and therefore when that is exceeded their body rapidly wastes the extra (loose bowels). Some people’s body’s may not respond at all, because their body doesn’t recognize the extra creatine as helpful and will again waste it or it doesn’t have a good enough medium of trasport (eg, dextrose). While others (the majority) will get a super-saturation which leads to cell volumizing and they more positive muscle building environment that I mentioned above. But, even for those that gain little or no positive effects, remember that creatine is the product for two amino acids (proteins). So, there should not be any serious adverse health effects. This would be like eating too much broccoli - it wouldn’t kill you, you would just shit funny for a while! (It’s really not pleasant - I learned this one the hard way!). I am referring to the poster that talked about a dramatic loss in blood pressure. I am not swearing that it was the creatine, but I highly doubt it.
We already have creatine stores usually at or over 100 grams in our bodies - so, supplementation is not necessary, but certainly isn’t harmful in 99.999% of cases.
Also, as it was already mentioned, check your diet. If you aren’t hydrating and/or taking in enough cals, you won’t see much of a net in LBM.
Owen I see where you’re going and I really appreciate a healthy skepticism, but you’re really oversimplifying the issue. You could extend that thinking and say, don’t bother writing any more articles about Boron or nitric oxide stimulators. Hey, lets stop all training and nutrition articles because everyone is different. While we’re at it, let’s just forget about science in general because hey, we’re all different. I’m not mocking you per se, I’m merely trying to make my point. It’s important to understand that science does indeed take individual variation into account, which is why we use statistics to determine what findings are significant. The standard is that something is statistically significant if it applies 95% of the time (or more). Of course that’s a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea.
Just maintain a modicum skepticism ie. take everything with a grain of salt (science included). We present ideas and theories, not dogma.
Cheers
Creatine supplementation will help in the lean mass department. This has been proven time and time again in numerous studies. For it to be optimally effective, one must have his/her diet and training dialed in to perfection. If not, you can’t expect that the creatine will do all that much for you. I think that this is where many people fall short.
This is NOT an accusation but I would always take a good hard look at my diet and training to see what may be missing here. That’s typically where I’m at fault.
Creatine has its place for sure. Make it part of your total package and enjoy the benefits.
[quote]jk7777 wrote:
Creatine can help strength temporarily while supplementing it but it will not increase lean muscle growth only protein can do that. [/quote]
read my above post - water retention from creatine DOES lead to greater protein synthesis. this is well documented, if not common sense. and many things besides protein are required to produce LBM. such as vitamins, minerals, anti-oxidants, phytonutrients, complex and simple carbs, healthy fats, overload compensation - muscle stress, and H20. protein should be of little concern if these other bases are not met first and foremost.
TFlex28, thanks - I’m just trying to help open some minds here…
What brand do I use - honestly, I don’t get too caught up in the detailed research. I’m sure there will always be a better brand than the one I use. I think it comes down to price vs. reputation. I usually trust the bigger names that have been around for a while. Pro Performance works for me. But, I try my best not to buy anything from retail. So, I might by MetRx on-line. I’d rather be on Cell-Tech as I have found that to really work. But, I’ve got to watch my bottom line, so I had to just by it plain and add some dex.
Why cycle? I believe this is somewhat theory and somewhat science. Some experts believe that your body can only tolerate super-saturated cells with CP for so long. Further, since your body usually makes the stuff from two amino acids, I believe they think your body eventually stops trying to make it. And, as with anything, I don’t think it’s healthy to make the body stop a natural process. So, I believe two-three month cycles might be sufficient in a training year.
I think this is similar to taking any hormones or prohormones for an extended period of time. At first your body uses the “extra” sauce in addition to your natural steroids to build bigger and stronger muscles. But, once it realized that it doesn’t need to make it’s own hormones (namely T) it get’s effecient and natural T drops off the chart. Not good.
With creatine, hormone therapy, or most fitness related issues, I believe the body adapts quickly to become as effecient as possible. Therefore all aspects of training must never stagnate.
Well, first of all, I have to admit I’m really happy with the level of the discussion my original post generated. Thanks guys!
After reading all of the above I think I’m going to give Creatine another try - I might have just picked the wrong options (from what I read in one of the articles mentioned, using V12 was definitely a bad idea, since it does have Glycocyamine).
Do you actually take the recommended dosage (10g/day, in two 5g servings)? Isn’t that a bit overdoing it, especially considering the T-Nation article that said that anything above 3g will go to waste?