Eating Less or Doing More?

paulieserafini · January 18, 2013, 1:30pm

Why are drugs even apart of this thread?

Shut your mouths.

gregron · January 18, 2013, 3:20pm

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
Why are drugs even apart of this thread?

Shut your mouths.[/quote]

lol. It is relevant to the conversation of “eating less or doing more” because dieting as a natty and dieting assisted are two different animals (obvi)… But yeah I get your sentiment that not all threads need to turn into a natty vs assisted debate.

On a non related note, lookin good Paulie. Look like you’ve leaned up quite a bit IIRC. Nice work.

Sentoguy · January 18, 2013, 6:06pm

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

frequency and protein synthesis is one of the main differences between training natty and assisted. people on this forum really like to down play the effects of these substances.
[/quote]
The only reaspn we like to downplay the effects of those things is because too many people like making too many excuses and complaining too fucking much about why they can’t succeed/can’t work out harder than they already are/can’t eat enough to gain weight/have already hit their genetic peak at 17,19,22 years old and 180 lbs/can’t make time to go to the gym/how people lean over 200 lbs have to be on steroids etc etc etc. focusing on every damn thing except how it is ACTUALLY possible to succeed.

THATS why. Of course “those substances” are part of the scene for competitive bodybuilding at many levels, but it’s not like you can’t get jscked without them. So much fucking whining, thats why.[/quote]

For all the times I see this type of post, I actually don’t see a whole lot of non-troll(read: purposely saying that dumb shit to get people like you and X all riled up) posts containing really any of the above. I see far more posts like the one just a little above yours, that attempt to downplay the effects of steroids(“Yo bro I’m natty and I totally lift like Phil Heath, same volume and frequency and everything, in fact fuck it I’m on PLAZMA I do fuckin more than him bro”… oh darn, I’ve embellished).

The natural competitors on this board have time and again given their input on the subject and actually tend to side with the ‘defenders’ of assistance, assuring people that the way they have to go about things like contest prep and offseason are fundamentally different with regards to how much weight can be added/lost successfully, with very few exceptions.

I also rarely ever(and never from the ‘usual suspects’ like ryan, as silly as he can be sometimes) see posts that act as if non assisted lifters should just quit because they are doomed to a life of mediocrity and being small.

There have been multiple people on this forum(one who is unquestionably the most successful T-Nationer ever as far as bodybuilding goes, and others who are at the top of that crop) who have gone assisted because they made the realization that the goals they had set for themselves(ideal physiques, many of them non-pro) are just not possible without assistance or DECADES of work, the latter of which is impossible for someone in their 20s who perhaps has some vanity they wish to have that look for(god forbid).[/quote]

please don’t quote things I never said, its not a proper way to get your point across. If you read my posts, you can see that I wasn’t downplaying the fact that peds allow these guys to get far bigger and stronger, rather I was questioning the claims that training radically changes for natural vs assisted bodybuilders. I don’t think it does for bodybuilding; if you disagree, then a discussion with examples would be nice. I don’t see why you felt need to talk negatively about me or Biotest, especially considering the fact that you’re a level four poster.[/quote]

from a scientific standpoint for a natural unless you are very advanced, you should be training a muscle 2-3 times a week for optimal gains. protein synthesis in naturals only lasts 48-72 hours, meaning you only grow for 2-3 days after training a particular muscle. however if you are on as much gear as the pros you are able to elevate protein synthesis for a much longer time. in other words you can have a very high volume workout and dont have to worry about lack of frequency. [/quote]

Actually from a scientific standpoint it’s consumption of essential amino acids (protein) that stimulates protein synthesis, breaking down muscle tissue through resistance training can increase the demand (and to a degree focus where the synthesis occurs), but it’s the food intake that actually stimulates the synthesis; and the process is systemic, not isolated. So, as long as you are training multiple times a week (even if you only hit each muscle group directly once a week) and weren’t only actually training once a week (and eating big only once a week), then your body would still be in a state of increased protein synthesis throughout the entire week.

Not saying that working out a muscle 2-3 times a week is necessarily a bad thing, just to be careful about making such sweeping generalizations. There are plenty of natural bodybuilders who have built impressive physiques by training their muscle groups only once a week. And all the guys wearing white lab costs in the world do not outweigh thousands (if not even potentially hundreds of thousands or even millions) of actual flesh and blood examples. Science is great for telling us why what works works, but it’s usually the people in the trenches who actually figure out what works. And to fail to see them as scientists who have tested out hundreds of different hypothesis on their own bodies and/or their clients (experimentation) and found which of those hypothesis worked and which didn’t (proving or disproving of their initial hypothesis) would be a huge mistake and waste of very valuable knowledge/wisdom IMO.

Mike_T1 · January 18, 2013, 7:12pm

Berardi has gotten into intermittent fasting recently, I wonder if his thoughts have changed.

Post is according to the first page and the post on the G-flux redux

red04 · January 18, 2013, 8:47pm

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

frequency and protein synthesis is one of the main differences between training natty and assisted. people on this forum really like to down play the effects of these substances.
[/quote]
The only reaspn we like to downplay the effects of those things is because too many people like making too many excuses and complaining too fucking much about why they can’t succeed/can’t work out harder than they already are/can’t eat enough to gain weight/have already hit their genetic peak at 17,19,22 years old and 180 lbs/can’t make time to go to the gym/how people lean over 200 lbs have to be on steroids etc etc etc. focusing on every damn thing except how it is ACTUALLY possible to succeed.

THATS why. Of course “those substances” are part of the scene for competitive bodybuilding at many levels, but it’s not like you can’t get jscked without them. So much fucking whining, thats why.[/quote]

For all the times I see this type of post, I actually don’t see a whole lot of non-troll(read: purposely saying that dumb shit to get people like you and X all riled up) posts containing really any of the above. I see far more posts like the one just a little above yours, that attempt to downplay the effects of steroids(“Yo bro I’m natty and I totally lift like Phil Heath, same volume and frequency and everything, in fact fuck it I’m on PLAZMA I do fuckin more than him bro”… oh darn, I’ve embellished).

The natural competitors on this board have time and again given their input on the subject and actually tend to side with the ‘defenders’ of assistance, assuring people that the way they have to go about things like contest prep and offseason are fundamentally different with regards to how much weight can be added/lost successfully, with very few exceptions.

I also rarely ever(and never from the ‘usual suspects’ like ryan, as silly as he can be sometimes) see posts that act as if non assisted lifters should just quit because they are doomed to a life of mediocrity and being small.

There have been multiple people on this forum(one who is unquestionably the most successful T-Nationer ever as far as bodybuilding goes, and others who are at the top of that crop) who have gone assisted because they made the realization that the goals they had set for themselves(ideal physiques, many of them non-pro) are just not possible without assistance or DECADES of work, the latter of which is impossible for someone in their 20s who perhaps has some vanity they wish to have that look for(god forbid).[/quote]

I haven’t frequented this subforum for a while to be honest. Perhaps things have changed. When I was last posting aomewhat regularly in this area of the site, it was raging. I was, however, in a shitty mood when I wrote this post so I definitely ranted more than normal to blow off some steam. I’m not even defending steroids. All I can remember, though, are threads like “natural vs. steroid muscle” and complete wanking like that. And I personally hate the excuse making. I have understood what Prof gets so upset about when he rants on these forums for years nlw. People like that CaseyButts guy, etc.

That being said I find it suspect and rather foolish to be suggesting you’re on Phil Heath’s routine and making great progress, for the reason you mentioned. I supposee I jumped the shark anyway with the post, but in my lame defense I was having a pretty bad day at the time…[/quote]

Ya I remember the forums being like that for a long time, and I’m not even denying that there are still some flare ups where people need to be reminded that you don’t need to be an elite genetic freak or on Mr. O levels of assistance to go hit the gym with intensity and make gains. I just feel like sometimes the pendulum has swung way too far the other way, where even the suggestion that someone with an elite physique is on steroids is the source of a ton of derision, or a statement about how much ‘easier’(in a sense of maintaining lean mass, not level of effort) dieting is for assisted competitors is met with some fierce competition.

My post was also fueled by a level of outside annoyance, I know that feel.

BHappy · January 18, 2013, 9:50pm

“Berardi has gotten into intermittent fasting recently,”

“Shelby was a pretty big proponent of having me eat less AND do more.”

Here is a copy of Chad Waterbury email about his first tip of 2013

"Fasting Made Simple
Fasting is more popular than ever, and for good reason. You can experience a myriad of health and body composition benefits by avoiding food for 16 hours or more. In fact, I consider a one-day fast each week to be the most beneficial nutritional strategy for my clients.

I?ve found that a one-day fast reduces inflammation better than anything else. And with less inflammation you get better fat loss, recovery, and energy. Furthermore, I believe that lowering inflammation and taking stress off the gastrointestinal (GI) tract helps your body better assimilate amino acids when you return to eating. This means your body is more apt to build muscle after a fast.

Since we all want to have a leaner midsection and more energy, those are two of the benefits mentioned most often. However, there?s another benefit of fasting that?s discussed less frequently: mental toughness.

The first time you make your body spend a day without food, it sucks. But over time, that one-day fast will get easier and you?ll actually look forward to it ? especially after an indulgence. I?m fasting as I write this because I had too many wings, nachos, and Miller High Life beers while watching the bowl games yesterday.

Once you realize that you?re not a slave to food, and once you experience the calm, focused energy you get after 24 hours without food, it?ll improve your psyche. And that extra mental toughness will carry over into all other aspects of your life because you?ll have heightened willpower.

Nothing builds mettle like fasting does.

Last June I spoke at the Perform Better summit in Providence, RI. My buddy Dr. John Berardi spoke there, too. After our presentations we hung out and discussed training and nutrition. He mentioned that one of the most beneficial changes he made to his athlete?s nutrition programs was a one-day fast.

I was already sold on the benefits of fasting since I?ve been experimenting with Ori?s Warrior Diet for the past few years. But I never did a full day of fasting, and neither did my clients. But Berardi?s advice ranks high in my book so I started incorporating a one-day fast into all my client?s programs, and my nutrition plan as well.

It was the best nutritional change I ever made. The morning after a full day of fasting you?ll have a tighter, leaner midsection and your mind will be calm and focused. Your first meal that day will taste and sit in your gut better than ever.

One-Day Fast Details

If you?re on medication, or have health issues, or are unsure if a full-day fast is for you, be sure to check with your doctor first.
As soon as you wake up squeeze one-half of a fresh lemon into 16 ounces of water and drink. The lemon juice helps the liver deal with the detoxification process. Add a few pinches of cayenne pepper to the drink to help control hunger and aid the detoxifying effect, if you can handle the taste.
Drink 0.5 ounce of water per pound of body weight throughout the day. So a 180-pound person needs 90 ounces of water from morning until bedtime. You can add lemon and cayenne pepper to the water throughout the day.
Drink unsweetened black, green or white tea or black coffee if you need an energy boost. The tip I give my clients is to hold off on any caffeinated beverages as far into the day as possible. If you reach a point where your energy is very low, use the tea or coffee to pull you out of it. This doesn?t contribute to the water total in step 3.
If you?re worried about muscle loss, take 3-5 grams of branched chain amino acid (BCAA) pills 2-3 times spread throughout the day. However, I don?t think it?s necessary. I have 250-pound athletes do the one-day fast without BCAAs and there?s no problem with muscle loss, especially once their glycogen is restored the next day.
Before bed take magnesium and vitamin C. The magnesium will calm your nervous system and the vitamin C will lower cortisol. This combination makes it easier to fall asleep. I use four droppers of liquid magnesium from Mineralife mixed with one packet of Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C in a few ounces of water. Chug the concoction down like a shot because it tastes terrible if you let it sit in your mouth.
Finally, do not perform any type of strenuous exercise on this day of fasting. A brisk walk is a good idea, but weight training is out of the question. Let your muscles, nerves, and organs recover without any added stress of training.

With this one-day fast you?ll spend around 36 hours without food when you consider the sleeping hours the night before, and after, the fast. In other words, this isn?t a 24-hour fast: it?s a one-day fast that leads to around 36 hours without food.

This strategy works with any style of eating, whether or not an intermittent fast is already part of your plan. You could be on a Warrior-style plan where you have an intermittent fast (IF) for 16-20 hours every other day of the week. When this is the case I recommend you have two scoops of Organic Warrior Whey the morning after your full day of fasting to break the fast and stimulate protein synthesis.

Make 2013 be the year that you made a one-day fast part of your weekly routine. You?ll be leaner, healthier, and mentally stronger because of it.

Stay Focused,
Chad Waterbury"

browndisaster · January 18, 2013, 9:56pm