[quote]JCMPG wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]JCMPG wrote:
The book I read promotes tolerance and love of others.
[/quote]
Was it this book?[/quote]
No, but I am sure that is book we could all learn from.
[/quote]
He’s got some nice things to say about Jesus, too.
The fact that he doesn’t hate the Chinese with a burning (and entirely justified) hate says a lot for his having understood that whole “turn the other cheek” thing.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Seeing as the best medical care you are going to get the my area (super Contemporary American Liberal, BTW) is at a catholic hospital, and the best schools are private and Catholic… I’m not so sure about this. [/quote]
You’re missing the point, my friend. Medical breakthroughs for the most part have been slowed down by religion for hundreds of years. Just because it works now, doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a tremendous amount of opposition from religion. Think about the Catholic Church’s stance on condoms (until recently) for both protection and prevention.
I’d like you to read the following. Don’t worry, it’s brief:
That is not an exhaustive list, just some of the more famous guys.
“n modern science, the term “theory” refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support (“verify”) or empirically contradict (“falsify”) it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word “theory” that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word ‘hypothesis’).”
Theory - Wikipedia Since wiki would say it better than me.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Everyone has blind faith, everyone. Even the Militant Church of the Atheist is based on blind faith. [/quote]
No, they don’t and no, it isn’t. Blind faith means a complete acceptance of something, regardless of what proof there is to the contrary. An atheist does not believe there is a God because it has been proved so through rationale and logic. A religious individual, by definition, is someone who accepts his faith, despite any logical fallacies or inconsistencies. If a Christian believes the earth is only 6000 years old or whatever, but at the same time, believes in science as it is today, then he is adhering to Christianity via blind faith, since modern science shows that the earth is much much older than that.
A more direct example:
-God knows absolutely everything that ever has been and will ever be.
-You have free will.
These two statements contradict each other. Since God already knows what choice you will make before you make it, even before you come in to existence, it stands to reason that you actually do not have free will since you are destined to make that decision, or else God would be wrong. Regardless, a devout religious individual will state that “God works in mysterious ways” or “you just can’t understand it because you’re not God” or some-other-cop-out-bullshit-statement.
Example 2:
-God is perfect.
-God is an angry and vengeful God.
A perfect being cannot be ruled by emotions, especially since emotions are human constructs. God should also be aware of what is going to happen before it happens, since he is omniscient, thus there is no reason for him to be angry.
I have.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Oh yes, because your “sky fairy” comment does the opposite of this? lmao
You’re mind is so closed towards theism, you are hardly in a place to judge who’s mind is open of closed on the subject.
But in reality, this is completely and utter false to the point of absurdity. I mean, why on earth are there 200 different forms of Christianity and Islam if this were true?
In fact, this is a made up talking point based on no truth what-so-ever that close minded people project upon religion. [/quote]
Homosexuality, among many others.
Sure did, but when something is the direct cause of war and suffering, it’s an issue. Find me a recurring belief system that is the reason for people directly hurting and killing others.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I think at this point it is clear you are conflating mankind’s interpretation of supposed divine messages with spirituality and the underlying meanings that come with religion… [/quote]
Am I? Seems the underlying message of religion is to spread the word of God and to absolutely eradicate anyone who thinks or wants otherwise. Even today you have such events occurring in the name of God. It’s something that has been done for the past thousands of years. You really going to argue this point?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So does being an atheist, a democrat, and a Yankee fan.
[/quote]
The day that atheists, democrats, or Yankee fans torture/mutilate/kill millions upon millions of people in the name of their beliefs is the day you are right. Until then, you are dead wrong.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]JCMPG wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]JCMPG wrote:
The book I read promotes tolerance and love of others.
[/quote]
Was it this book?[/quote]
No, but I am sure that is book we could all learn from.
[/quote]
He’s got some nice things to say about Jesus, too.
The fact that he doesn’t hate the Chinese with a burning (and entirely justified) hate says a lot for his having understood that whole “turn the other cheek” thing. [/quote]
Now that looks like a very interesting read. You just never know where enlightenment will come from.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Then explains the hundreds of years of people being persecuted and horrifically hurt and killed due to religion.
Can you scroll through any of these and tell me if there are any that are not true?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html[/quote]
A person could produce an equally appalling list of atrocities committed to serve completely secular, political, financial, tribal, clan/family etc ends. Should one conclude that the whole idea of government and civilization as a whole is a cancer and that all systems of social governance and human affiliation are bullshit for superstitious, conformist morons who lack the intellectual courage to go it alone?
People do horrible shit to people sometimes. Period. “Humans are a cancer” is a stronger argument than “religion is a cancer”, but it’s a bit problematic.
Edit, Beans beat me to it…[/quote]
A valid point which is missing one thing: the fact that something can be political, financial, tribal, secular, etc, and not involve atrocities. A lot of atrocities were done under political systems, but they have nothing to do with political systems. Communism isn’t necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. It just so happened to be that the guy at the top was drunk with power and a fucking cunt.
Religion, on the other hand, encourages such atrocities if it’s in the name of God. The whole purpose of religion is to spread the word of God, and remove any opposition. That is what makes it a cancer.
People kill people. Not religion, guns, video games, etc. Blaming religion is lazy
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
The day that atheists, democrats, or Yankee fans torture/mutilate/kill millions upon millions of people in the name of their beliefs is the day you are right. Until then, you are dead wrong.
[/quote]
Cue reference to Hitler/Stalin/Mao Zedong/Pol Pot in five…four…three…two…
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
You’re missing the point, my friend. Medical breakthroughs for the most part have been slowed down by religion for hundreds of years. Just because it works now, doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a tremendous amount of opposition from religion. Think about the Catholic Church’s stance on condoms (until recently) for both protection and prevention.
I’d like you to read the following. Don’t worry, it’s brief:
That is not an exhaustive list, just some of the more famous guys.[/quote]
Ummm, we are talking about medicine right? The same people that didn’t until recently understand that they should wash their hands before cutting you open?
Seems to me you have blind faith that the doctors are always right.
okay, so I’m right then…
It is okay to question a theory, and actually should be encouraged?
[quote]
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Everyone has blind faith, everyone. Even the Militant Church of the Atheist is based on blind faith. [/quote]
No, they don’t and no, it isn’t. Blind faith means a complete acceptance of something, regardless of what proof there is to the contrary. An atheist does not believe there is a God because it has been proved so through rationale and logic.[/quote]
So, the atheist blind faith that current human “rationale and logic” are infallible isn’t in fact blind faith?
lol
Again, false talking point.
The many different versions of Christianity sort of punch a whole lot of holes in this statement by themselves, let alone the 1,000’s of different iterations of religious thought throughout history.
Yeah, another talking point from atheist.com. I was under the impression that a year in that context, doesn’t mean one revolution around the Sun, as in when they say 6,000 years, they don’t mean the same thing as 6,000 revolutions around the Sun. Just like a couple hundred years ago “intercourse” was a conversation between people and not sex.
[quote]
I have.[/quote]
So, you do realize that said dog is an animal, and anytime you went to sleep without tying this animal up you had faith, some would say blind faith, that this dog wasn’t going to maul you in your sleep right?
Every single time that dog licked your face out of your perceived love, you had faith it wasn’t going to bite you. Every, single, time.
Everyone has faith.
[quote]
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Oh yes, because your “sky fairy” comment does the opposite of this? lmao
You’re mind is so closed towards theism, you are hardly in a place to judge who’s mind is open of closed on the subject.
But in reality, this is completely and utter false to the point of absurdity. I mean, why on earth are there 200 different forms of Christianity and Islam if this were true?
In fact, this is a made up talking point based on no truth what-so-ever that close minded people project upon religion. [/quote]
Homosexuality, among many others. [/quote]
What? How does that, at all, address what I wrote?
Government.
Abortion “rights”
Among others
That days has come (and gone in certain instances). So I guess I’m right. (Maybe not the Yankee fan.) But the fact you don’t see this is telling…
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
The day that atheists, democrats, or Yankee fans torture/mutilate/kill millions upon millions of people in the name of their beliefs is the day you are right. Until then, you are dead wrong.
[/quote]
Hitler/Stalin/Mao Zedong/Pol Pot [/quote]
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
The whole purpose of religion is to spread the word of God, and remove any opposition. That is what makes it a cancer.
[/quote]
I must have missed the part in the Bible where Jesus massacres millions of people. Why is it when people in politics get drunk on power that’s just one asshole but if it’s the Pope then religion is evil?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Answer this: do you now or have you ever owned a dog?[/quote]
Where are you going with this line of questioning, Beans? 
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
A valid point which is missing one thing: the fact that something can be political, financial, tribal, secular, etc, and not involve atrocities. [/quote]
There is a massive amount of religious activity that doesn’t involve atrocities as well, lol.
Are you fro real with this?
In fact, the church down the street from my house will do more this week to help out people than you and I will do in our lifetime combined in way of charity.
This can’t be serous…
Oh wait, you said communism wasn’t bad didn’t you?
ugh, so depressed I got into this conversation at this point.
Communism isn’t bad, lol… Just lol.
[quote]CroatianRage wrote:
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
The whole purpose of religion is to spread the word of God, and remove any opposition. That is what makes it a cancer.
[/quote]
I must have missed the part in the Bible where Jesus massacres millions of people. Why is it when people in politics get drunk on power that’s just one asshole but if it’s the Pope then religion is evil?[/quote]
Good point.
Communism is totally cool and all, just one or two people were jerks.
HOLY SHIT RELIGION IS A CANCER OF ALL OF MANKIND!!!
I won’t be back to this thread for awhile, so I’ll just leave it at this:
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
or “you just can’t understand it because you’re not God” or some-other-cop-out-bullshit-statement.
[/quote]
This isn’t a “cop-out” and if you didn’t have such a closed mind you would see that.
You like logic and rationale right? Well why don’t you ever actually use it to take the time to think about the alternative rather than have faith that your stance is correct?
You know how I know you don’t think about it? Because you say things like I quoted above.
Now lets think:
Let’s just say there is a God for the sake of thought experiment. If there is a God, God must be omnipotent.
Now we know man is fallible, and if God is omnipotent, wouldn’t it be a bit arrogant to assume that mankind actually could understand the workings of an omnipotent being? I mean wouldn’t it be a bit crazy to assume we could interpret the message 100% clearly?
Now if you take a look at all the current religious institutions, all their similarities and differences and pay particular attention to the things all these systems have in common, and how they have similar things in common with past systems, do we start to see certain themes pop out at us?
The statement isn’t a “cop-out” it is the truth, if there is God. And if there isn’t God, then science becomes god anyway, so there really isn’t much point in being pig headed and insulting about it. (Someone else can copy paste one of my many explanations of that statement from other threads when people flip out about it.)
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Ummm, we are talking about medicine right? The same people that didn’t until recently understand that they should wash their hands before cutting you open?[/quote]
Are you deliberately being retarded? You mean to tell me that you don’t get that it doesn’t mean we had an absolute understanding from day 1, but that advances were done in the field of X? Religion was always there, every step of the way, to fuck things up.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Seems to me you have blind faith that the doctors are always right. [/quote]
…what? You’re really reaching lol. Is this what your retorts amount too? Little quips?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
okay, so I’m right then…
It is okay to question a theory, and actually should be encouraged?[/quote]
Yes, it is okay to question a theory, but a theory is a scientific model which explains something. If you think that just because it’s a “theory” (seems you didn’t read what I linked) as it is used in daily life, then you better hide under something because all those satellites are coming down.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So, the atheist blind faith that current human “rationale and logic” are infallible isn’t in fact blind faith?[/quote]
Strawman. Evidence of absence - Wikipedia
[quote]countingbeans wrote: Again, false talking point.
The many different versions of Christianity sort of punch a whole lot of holes in this statement by themselves, let alone the 1,000’s of different iterations of religious thought throughout history. [/quote]
The original is what matters, since the original is SUPPOSED to be the word of God. If you have so many iterations of religion, that may be proof enough that it is a completely man made thing, and devoid of any actual divine presence. If this is the case, then religion is pointless.
[quote]countingbeans wrote: Again, false talking point.
Yeah, another talking point from atheist.com. I was under the impression that a year in that context, doesn’t mean one revolution around the Sun, as in when they say 6,000 years, they don’t mean the same thing as 6,000 revolutions around the Sun. Just like a couple hundred years ago “intercourse” was a conversation between people and not sex. [/quote]
So why the fuck did they use the word years? It couldn’t have been revolutions around the sun, because that wasn’t close to being accepted by the general populace for centuries after 0 BC/AC. Why use a term which means 365 days and then have it signify something completely different?
In any case, you present a poor argument. Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia
3rd paragraph is significant. 50 percent of adults in the U.S. take that literally. That is one of the reasons religion is a poison: when adults BLINDLY believe the earth is 6000 or whatever years old, when modern science tells them it’s absolutely wrong, which, of course, they will deny, while they watch TV in an aircraft 25000 meters in the air.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So, you do realize that said dog is an animal, and anytime you went to sleep without tying this animal up you had faith, some would say blind faith, that this dog wasn’t going to maul you in your sleep right?
Every single time that dog licked your face out of your perceived love, you had faith it wasn’t going to bite you. Every, single, time.
Everyone has faith. [/quote]
First off, I don’t trust my dog, or any animal for that matter. Second of all, were I to do so, that is an indication of faith but NOT blind faith. There is a huge difference between the two. Do you need me to explain the difference to you? (hint: The dog has proven itself loyal for many years).
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
What? How does that, at all, address what I wrote?[/quote]
Religion has been close minded towards tons of things, from new discoveries in science to homosexuality. It isn’t a talking point based on “no truth what-so-ever that close minded people project upon religion”, it is a documented fact.
[quote]countingbeans wrote: Government.
Abortion “rights”
Among others [/quote]
Government is not a belief system, it’s an administrative or governing system. Abortion is not a belief system, and the argument on whether unborn fetus possess person-hood is for another thread. A belief system is something involving beliefs such as philosophy or religion.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Yeah, no, you miss the entire point of religion. Like so utterly and completely it is comical you talk about it still. [/quote]
No, I don’t. Centuries of history give me a very good idea of what religion is all about: spread the word of God, and kill the sinners.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
That days has come (and gone in certain instances). So I guess I’m right. (Maybe not the Yankee fan.) But the fact you don’t see this is telling…
[/quote]
No one has killed millions in the name of Atheism. No one.
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Then explains the hundreds of years of people being persecuted and horrifically hurt and killed due to religion.
Can you scroll through any of these and tell me if there are any that are not true?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html[/quote]
A person could produce an equally appalling list of atrocities committed to serve completely secular, political, financial, tribal, clan/family etc ends. Should one conclude that the whole idea of government and civilization as a whole is a cancer and that all systems of social governance and human affiliation are bullshit for superstitious, conformist morons who lack the intellectual courage to go it alone?
People do horrible shit to people sometimes. Period. “Humans are a cancer” is a stronger argument than “religion is a cancer”, but it’s a bit problematic.
Edit, Beans beat me to it…[/quote]
A valid point which is missing one thing: the fact that something can be political, financial, tribal, secular, etc, and not involve atrocities. A lot of atrocities were done under political systems, but they have nothing to do with political systems. Communism isn’t necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. It just so happened to be that the guy at the top was drunk with power and a fucking cunt.
Religion, on the other hand, encourages such atrocities if it’s in the name of God. The whole purpose of religion is to spread the word of God, and remove any opposition. That is what makes it a cancer.
[/quote]
And Communism (especially cold war era Communism) didn’t seek to spread the word/influence of Communism and remove the opposition? Really?
Capitalistic Democracy doesn’t seek to do the same?
Roman Empire?
British Empire?
All those other empires that drove the scientific advances that are allowing us to have this masturbatory discussion online? Evil will always be done in the name of the “Greater Good”. That’s just people.
Any expansionist driven society will seek to spread it its power base at the expense of others. People loyal to that ideology will tend to believe it is for the betterment of all. Some good may come from this as will some evil. It’s a matter of degrees.
How do you not realize that you could substitute any religion ever associated with violent acts into your statement about how what is done under this or that system does not necessarily
reflect on the system as a whole.
“A lot of atrocities were done under religious systems, but they have nothing to do with religious systems. Christianity isn’t necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. It just so happened to be that the guy(s) at the top was drunk with power and a fucking cunt.”
That you can’t or won’t see that is just willful closed-mindedness and blind faith that your ideology is better than the one you oppose. It’s precisely the type of zealotry that has resulted in all the worst of religious history.
[quote]CroatianRage wrote:
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
The whole purpose of religion is to spread the word of God, and remove any opposition. That is what makes it a cancer.
[/quote]
I must have missed the part in the Bible where Jesus massacres millions of people. Why is it when people in politics get drunk on power that’s just one asshole but if it’s the Pope then religion is evil?[/quote]
How about the part where God massacres millions of people? Or the millions of people massacred in God’s name? That do anything for you?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Let’s just say there is a God for the sake of thought experiment. If there is a God, God must be omnipotent.
Now we know man is fallible, and if God is omnipotent, wouldn’t it be a bit arrogant to assume that mankind actually could understand the workings of an omnipotent being? I mean wouldn’t it be a bit crazy to assume we could interpret the message 100% clearly?[/quote]
No. This is not an extremely complicated thing we’re talking about. We’re not being told or asked to try to visualize some 10 dimensional concepts. We’re basically being given a book of rules pertaining to us. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he should be able to explain it to us in a manner we understand. If he can’t, he must not be omnipotent. Do you explain things to other people in a made up language no one understands? He would also be able to foresee us challenging his word, and yet we haven’t heard of any interaction with him anymore. If some guy in the street tells you God spoke to him, do you believe him or do you think he’s nuts?
If you think it requires an omnipotent being to explain why sex before marriage deserves a life in hell, or why a man sticking his dick up another man’s ass deserves life in hell, then I dunno what to tell you.
Why does no one believe in Zeus, Minerva, or Fujin anymore? If someone told you they believed in Ifrits, would you laugh in their face? Could it be that religion came about from people trying to explain something they did not have the knowledge or tools to explain? Could it be that we now know that lightning and thunder is not (the) God(s) being angry, but natural phenomena?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:The statement isn’t a “cop-out” it is the truth, if there is God. And if there isn’t God, then science becomes god anyway, so there really isn’t much point in being pig headed and insulting about it. (Someone else can copy paste one of my many explanations of that statement from other threads when people flip out about it.)
[/quote]
It’s a problem when religion causes harm to humanity as a whole.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
“A lot of atrocities were done under religious systems, but they have nothing to do with religious systems. Christianity isn’t necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. It just so happened to be that the guy(s) at the top was drunk with power and a fucking cunt.”
That you can’t or won’t see that is just willful closed-mindedness and blind faith that your ideology is better than the one you oppose. It’s precisely the type of zealotry that has resulted in all the worst of religious history.[/quote]
Except it’s very clearly stated in the quran and bible to kill sinners.
[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
“A lot of atrocities were done under religious systems, but they have nothing to do with religious systems. Christianity isn’t necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. It just so happened to be that the guy(s) at the top was drunk with power and a fucking cunt.”
That you can’t or won’t see that is just willful closed-mindedness and blind faith that your ideology is better than the one you oppose. It’s precisely the type of zealotry that has resulted in all the worst of religious history.[/quote]
Except it’s very clearly stated in the quran and bible to kill sinners.[/quote]
If you are going to say something as inflammatory as that you will need to cite your proof.
