I would also like to see what some of the international elite athletes would be capable of if they were not restricted by the anti-doping policy, but I would not want to see it if it meant fracturing our sport, which I believe would cause irreparable damage.
Yeah. Though if people are to be believed all the elites are doping, anyway.
[quote]alexus wrote:
The problem with that is you’ll then have “Olympic” weightlifters who no longer participate in the Olympics that may very well set a standard for lifting that is higher than that found in the Olympics…higher weights lifted on average, higher records, etc. That would, in my opinion, sort of minimize what is accomplished at the Olympics by “clean” or at least less drugged up athletes.
Yes you would. That would be expected. I don’t think people use drugs because they expect their performance to go down.
Do you really think the existence of non-tested (drug using) powerlifting federations minimizes what is accomplished by the non drug using powerlifters in the tested federations?
Similarly, do you really think the existence of assistive geared powerlifting federations minimizes what is accomplished by the raw powerlifers in the raw federations?
I figured they were two different games, really, with their different rules.
Similarly, female lifters might well lift less than male lifters… Under 18 year old lifters might lift less than over 18 year old lifters… Masters Lifters might lift less than younger lifters… Lighter weight lifters lift less than superheavy weightlifters…
But whatever one of those gets up to doesn’t minimize the accomplishments of those in different categories.
I would have thought.
Nobody wants to see the records go way the fuck down.
They would rather people cheat?
[/quote]
I had a response to this but then I realized that jonty stole all of my answers haha. It’s true though, higher numbers get all the attention. Even within the strength sports, the superheavies get more attention than other classes simply because they put up the biggest numbers in absolute terms. And think about track, only a hardcore track fan can tell you the world record holder in the 400m or 800m, but everyone and their mother knows that bolt holds the 100m record. It’s the event that determines the “fastest man alive” so it gets the most press.
The point is, the bigger numbers grab all the attention. If we had a non-tested Olift federation and some superheavy suddenly broke the 600lb barrier on the C&J, that would steal the show away from all the lifters toiling away with less weight in the tested federation.
I also agree that it’s simply blissful ignorance rather than that people don’t mind about athletes doping up. So long as an athlete doesn’t test positive they can sit back and pretend that they are all are lifetime clean. You should watch “Bigger, Stronger, Faster,” it’s a pretty interesting documentary about steroid usage, mostly deals with America though.
[quote]ConorM wrote:
It makes enough of a difference that no elite athlete in any physical sport is not on PEDs at least some of the time.
If you watch an olympic track or field event, yes they are literally all on PEDs.
Weightlifters, no one in the A class in any weight class is not on PEDs. It can’t be done.
I say this not as a sleight against any athletes, it is not a reflection of some sort of jealousy on my behalf as I have been accused of when making similar statements in the past, the way I see it its still a level playing field. The strongest are still the strongest, the fastest still the fastest. Who cares if they are on drugs? Because they are, all of them. [/quote]
TF? This i balatently BS.
To say that no one in the A class is clean is just BS.
Koing
bro PED is more widespread than you’d think. Heck my buddy plays semi-amateur soccer and he’s already gone through a cycle! Nevermind the fact that almost every big guy and personal trainer in the gym is doing it…athletes live on it. It changes the whole equation, it is not even a debate it helps in every way. anyone telling you otherwise is full of shit.
btw in most federations the tests done are a joke. The extensive tests are very expensive and can still be bypassed.
[quote]Koing wrote:
To say that no one in the A class is clean is just BS.
Koing[/quote]
It’s a statement that can’t be proven or disproven, given that the only way to know for absolute certain if someone is doping or not (besides an attack of conscience and admission of guilt) is a positive test. Given what little I’ve heard about the nature of doping in weightlifting across the pond (speaking mostly of Asia and Eastern Europe, I suppose) it’s a conclusion I can’t exactly fault him for coming to.
As a matter of comparison, I took a look at the 2010 Worlds results in the 105s (excuse the bias but that’s my weight class). The lowest total in the A class was 390 (180+210). Compare that to Donny Shankle’s (who I do think is clean) best training lifts (170+210 I think). Take that for what it’s worth.
O.K.
my last two cents,
Everyone has different levels of natural testosterone, as well as free-testosterone. If my natural levels are 200 ng/L and my competitor’s natural levels are 350 ng/L
Is that “fair”?
I mean thats what the “rules” are for right? to be “fair”.
Fair means to be UNbiasd.
Well, i’d say 350 is biased compared to 200.
Personally i think that this or that is “banned” because of basic human nature.
Those in charge are afraid of that which they don’t understand or don’t control.
We can’t have a bunch of lifters coming from a little 3rd world country like Bulgaria, that doesn’t even have toilet paper, with a population smaller than Chicago come to the Olympic’s and kick our ass now can we.
And were told that this is because “steroids” are bad.
Can someone help me out and provide me with long term studies that prove this?
Not anecdotal stuff like “what about Lyle Alzado”
Does anyone really think Alzado led a healthy clean lifestyle apart from his massive steroid use?
Hell, two glasses of wine a day extends like. Two gallons a day shortens it. Lyle’s roid use was closer to the gallon.
Louie Simmons, Alexeev and Arnold all seem to be doin just fine.
LB
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]ViKtoricus wrote:
YAAAY!! Intellectual m*****bation for the WIN!!! :D[/quote]
I’ve got a funny feeling that little laugh I got from you censoring “masturbation” is going to be about the sum of your contribution to this thread (even though you started it, you didn’t add much intelligent discussion).[/quote]
I don’t need to prove to you how smart I am. I’m awesome enough as it is.
[quote]LBramble wrote:
O.K.
my last two cents,
Everyone has different levels of natural testosterone, as well as free-testosterone. If my natural levels are 200 ng/L and my competitor’s natural levels are 350 ng/L
Is that “fair”?
I mean thats what the “rules” are for right? to be “fair”.
Fair means to be UNbiasd.
Well, i’d say 350 is biased compared to 200.
Personally i think that this or that is “banned” because of basic human nature.
Those in charge are afraid of that which they don’t understand or don’t control.
We can’t have a bunch of lifters coming from a little 3rd world country like Bulgaria, that doesn’t even have toilet paper, with a population smaller than Chicago come to the Olympic’s and kick our ass now can we.
And were told that this is because “steroids” are bad.
Can someone help me out and provide me with long term studies that prove this?
Not anecdotal stuff like “what about Lyle Alzado”
Does anyone really think Alzado led a healthy clean lifestyle apart from his massive steroid use?
Hell, two glasses of wine a day extends like. Two gallons a day shortens it. Lyle’s roid use was closer to the gallon.
Louie Simmons, Alexeev and Arnold all seem to be doin just fine.
LB
[/quote]
Honestly, I really love how this thread is going so far! Lots of great opinions and information.
I believe performance-enhancing drugs of ANY kind should NOT BE BANNED and let all lifters of all sizes and shapes use them AT THEIR OWN RISK! Let drugs be a part of the competition. Let the users of the “riskier” drugs suffer their effects.
I think it would be awesome if the government would give us a license to dope ourselves as long as we agree to represent USA in the olympics if we qualify for it, and make it illegal for a 700-pound ATG squatter to NOT participate unless he/she has a valid excuse (like some kind of birth defect where he/she dies everytime he/she clean and jerk.)
YAAAYYY!!! INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION FOR THE WYYYYYNNNNN!!
[quote]ViKtoricus wrote:
YAAAYYY!!! INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION FOR THE WYYYYYNNNNN!![/quote]
Is that what you call discussion?
Don’t worry. It will become more normal for you over time.
PEDs make a difference. Certain steroids, particularly those with lots of androgenic action increase strength output.
Besides a well defined increased in limit strength, the ability to rapidly recover allows for increased training frequency, which allows for more quality training sessions that allow the athlete to tune their technique.
So without PEDs athletes are weaker and have a slower rate of progress since they cannot train as often.
I believe at lower levels it is a moral issue. Going into a local open competition juiced up is just unfair. But at the world level, it is open to debate. If everyone is on gear, it merely levels the playing field
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]ViKtoricus wrote:
YAAAY!! Intellectual m*****bation for the WIN!!! :D[/quote]
I’ve got a funny feeling that little laugh I got from you censoring “masturbation” is going to be about the sum of your contribution to this thread (even though you started it, you didn’t add much intelligent discussion).[/quote]
If it weren’t for me this thread would not exist. Dude, you have to give credit where it is due.
[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
bro PED is more widespread than you’d think. Heck my buddy plays semi-amateur soccer and he’s already gone through a cycle! Nevermind the fact that almost every big guy and personal trainer in the gym is doing it…athletes live on it. It changes the whole equation, it is not even a debate it helps in every way. anyone telling you otherwise is full of shit.
btw in most federations the tests done are a joke. The extensive tests are very expensive and can still be bypassed.[/quote]
I know about PEDs, people get busted in the news and others don’t. He’s semi-amateur and probably has never done a drugs test in his life by his soccer federation. I know that it helps a lot.
In England this is how they roll
If your good you get put on a register, you list an addrerss 1hr days a week where they can come and do a random test. Miss 3 in 18months = auto life time ban. I had 2 or 3 done out of competition and 1 done after a comp. Everytime I was tested my bro was tested as well when we lived together. They test at the National comps. They don’t need to test the dude coming in 4th or 5th.
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]Koing wrote:
It’s a statement that can’t be proven or disproven, given that the only way to know for absolute certain if someone is doping or not (besides an attack of conscience and admission of guilt) is a positive test. Given what little I’ve heard about the nature of doping in weightlifting across the pond (speaking mostly of Asia and Eastern Europe, I suppose) it’s a conclusion I can’t exactly fault him for coming to.
As a matter of comparison, I took a look at the 2010 Worlds results in the 105s (excuse the bias but that’s my weight class). The lowest total in the A class was 390 (180+210). Compare that to Donny Shankle’s (who I do think is clean) best training lifts (170+210 I think). Take that for what it’s worth.[/quote]
I’m not sure what your saying on your last point. That they are possibly on it because they can out lift Shankle? Or that it’s obtainable to be in the A class drug free? Or both?
My bro is a clean lifter and will smash it up and make the Olympics with a 309+ total. He is 100% clean, no drugs, no PEDS, no jack sh!t. It can be done but it doesn’t mean it is possible for everyone to do.
77kg lifter totalling 309+ is a ROCK SOLID TOTAL. It’s not out of this world amazing but few lifters can do it. He is definitely genetically gifted (life’s not fair, you roll with what you have) but he f0cking busts his ass in the gym.
People whine too much about sh!t. Just get in the f0cking gym and FS, SN, CJ and learn technique if your a beginner. If you can FS 180kg you have a right to C&J 150kg, so get f0cking strong and learn the lifts.
I’m not 5’5 so I f0cking deal with it. My back’s f0cked, I deal with it.
Man I’m f0cking JACKED. I’m going to go spank it in the gym tomorrow! 160 your my b!tch!!!
Koing
[quote]Koing wrote:
I’m not sure what your saying on your last point. That they are possibly on it because they can out lift Shankle? Or that it’s obtainable to be in the A class drug free? Or both?[/quote]
I wasn’t really trying to say anything, I was just posting some numbers to quantify the argument a little. I leave it up to the reader to draw their own conclusions on whether or not you can get in the A class without doing drugs.
[quote]Koing wrote:
My bro is a clean lifter and will smash it up and make the Olympics with a 309+ total. He is 100% clean, no drugs, no PEDS, no jack sh!t. It can be done but it doesn’t mean it is possible for everyone to do.
77kg lifter totalling 309+ is a ROCK SOLID TOTAL. It’s not out of this world amazing but few lifters can do it. He is definitely genetically gifted (life’s not fair, you roll with what you have) but he f0cking busts his ass in the gym.[/quote]
I agree, a 309 total at 77 is really impressive, and if/when he competes in the Olympics I know I’ll be rooting for him. I do think it’s not uncommon for people to underestimate what one can achieve if you start young, have good coaching, and have a real desire to train hard and to win.
That being said (and I almost feel like an ass for bringing this up) the lowest total in the 77kg A class at the 2010 worlds was 330 (150+180) and in Beijing it was 342 (150+192). Not necessarily trying to say anything with that, just posting some numbers, again. Figure it’s easier for some people to see what exactly somebody’s talking about if “A class this” or “A class that” is being thrown around.
[quote]Koing wrote:
People whine too much about sh!t. Just get in the f0cking gym and FS, SN, CJ and learn technique if your a beginner. If you can FS 180kg you have a right to C&J 150kg, so get f0cking strong and learn the lifts.
I’m not 5’5 so I f0cking deal with it. My back’s f0cked, I deal with it.
Man I’m f0cking JACKED. I’m going to go spank it in the gym tomorrow! 160 your my b!tch!!!
Koing[/quote]
I tend to agree, and I hope anything I’m posting isn’t coming across as whining.
Also saw that video you posted in the log thread where you just missed the 160 clean, you have some fresh legs for that you’ll smoke it. Make it happen.
Koing, you and your brother are beasts!
[quote]TheJonty wrote:
[quote]Koing wrote:
I’m not sure what your saying on your last point. That they are possibly on it because they can out lift Shankle? Or that it’s obtainable to be in the A class drug free? Or both?[/quote]
I wasn’t really trying to say anything, I was just posting some numbers to quantify the argument a little. I leave it up to the reader to draw their own conclusions on whether or not you can get in the A class without doing drugs.
[quote]Koing wrote:
My bro is a clean lifter and will smash it up and make the Olympics with a 309+ total. He is 100% clean, no drugs, no PEDS, no jack sh!t. It can be done but it doesn’t mean it is possible for everyone to do.
77kg lifter totalling 309+ is a ROCK SOLID TOTAL. It’s not out of this world amazing but few lifters can do it. He is definitely genetically gifted (life’s not fair, you roll with what you have) but he f0cking busts his ass in the gym.[/quote]
I agree, a 309 total at 77 is really impressive, and if/when he competes in the Olympics I know I’ll be rooting for him. I do think it’s not uncommon for people to underestimate what one can achieve if you start young, have good coaching, and have a real desire to train hard and to win.
That being said (and I almost feel like an ass for bringing this up) the lowest total in the 77kg A class at the 2010 worlds was 330 (150+180) and in Beijing it was 342 (150+192). Not necessarily trying to say anything with that, just posting some numbers, again. Figure it’s easier for some people to see what exactly somebody’s talking about if “A class this” or “A class that” is being thrown around.
[quote]Koing wrote:
People whine too much about sh!t. Just get in the f0cking gym and FS, SN, CJ and learn technique if your a beginner. If you can FS 180kg you have a right to C&J 150kg, so get f0cking strong and learn the lifts.
I’m not 5’5 so I f0cking deal with it. My back’s f0cked, I deal with it.
Man I’m f0cking JACKED. I’m going to go spank it in the gym tomorrow! 160 your my b!tch!!!
Koing[/quote]
I tend to agree, and I hope anything I’m posting isn’t coming across as whining.
Also saw that video you posted in the log thread where you just missed the 160 clean, you have some fresh legs for that you’ll smoke it. Make it happen.[/quote]
Your not being an ass. Those are just facts. My bro doesn’t train full time, works full time as well as studying for tough exams. I reckon if he trained full time in a good environment (DO NOT under estimate the training enviornment factor, it makes a HUGE difference to ones training) and was able to sleep loads he’d be making much better gains and had he been able to do so sooner in his lifting career.
330/340 @ 77kg is WORLD CLASS Elite and you’d still come NO WHERE near the top 3 LOL. You don’t total 330 @ 77 by training part time 3x a week with a full career and extra exams. But if you think about it, 309+, training 3x a week with a full career, to put on 20kg isn’t impossible for a full time athlete imo. More so if they started younger. Sure you may not win a medal as that is literally for the upper most Elite lifters.
I reckon with
solid genetics
good coaching
starting young
training environment
you have a good chance of making an A class at the Worlds or Olympics imo. If you lack any of the your chances are more diminished. Not everyone can make an A class at the Worlds or Olympics. But to sinclair over 300 is completely doable for all but the most lamely gifted athlete with enough training. Not everyone is cut out sinclair over 400 and CJ 2x bw!
I’m going to give 160 a good crack tonight. I feel good but we will see what I FS tonight. The FS will determine what I’ll Clean. I’ll limit the failures to 1 though. I don’t think I’ve EVER gotten a 1RM after failing a weight.
Little bro BS 135 @ 63kg, missed 140.
Koing
[quote]debraD wrote:
Koing, you and your brother are beasts![/quote]
I’m no beast. I’ll be getting on when I can CJ 175…bro is a beast.
175 isn’t 2x bw either! I’ll have to pound out 188!
I’ve been seriously under performing for way too long. Before I went to Uni in 2002 I did 100/120 @ 77kg! That was about 3yrs training. Nearly 9yrs on and I’m only at 125/150, WTF!!! Admittedly I had a much better training situation when I didn’t have to work and only went to school.
I’m getting pretty JACKED about tonights session now. In 6.5hrs I’ll be in the gym. 7hrs I’d have FS to a max and 7.5hrs I’ll find out if I Clean 160 or not 
F0cking BRING IT.
Koing