Drug-Free Powerlifting?

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]tredaway wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
picking a training program really has little to do with whether or not you use performance enhancers in most cases. I don’t know why you believe this. I train EXACTLY the way I did before I started using PEDs. The only difference is I get better results now. I do all the same lifts, sets, reps, rest periods, number of training days per week, etc. that I did when I was natural.

So when you say ‘it’s clear that what Paul Carter says is not appropriate for a natural’, it tells me you are making assumptions you should not be making. You’re totally and completely wrong about this aspect of training.[/quote]

This is the only post I don’t understand as your actually contradicting yourself by saying " I train EXACTLY the way I did before I started using PEDs. The only difference is I get better results now. I do all the same lifts, sets, reps, rest periods, number of training days per week, etc. that I did when I was natural. " this is what I’ve been saying as long as you put the hard work in if your using PEDS than your going to get results no matter what your doing.
[/quote]

I cant speak for Flipcollar but Paul Carter made it clear that PED’s help, but they don’t perform the lifts for you. on PED’s you might be able to have a lift gain of 15% over a given cycle, when a natty lifter might only gain 10-12%. There is usually a difference, but it is rarely as dramatic as people think. All of the enhanced lifters in my gym work their asses. They want their goals, PEDs are tools to get them there, but achieving those goals isn’t automatic because of a needle.

22

[quote]TheKraken wrote:

[quote]tredaway wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
picking a training program really has little to do with whether or not you use performance enhancers in most cases. I don’t know why you believe this. I train EXACTLY the way I did before I started using PEDs. The only difference is I get better results now. I do all the same lifts, sets, reps, rest periods, number of training days per week, etc. that I did when I was natural.

So when you say ‘it’s clear that what Paul Carter says is not appropriate for a natural’, it tells me you are making assumptions you should not be making. You’re totally and completely wrong about this aspect of training.[/quote]

This is the only post I don’t understand as your actually contradicting yourself by saying " I train EXACTLY the way I did before I started using PEDs. The only difference is I get better results now. I do all the same lifts, sets, reps, rest periods, number of training days per week, etc. that I did when I was natural. " this is what I’ve been saying as long as you put the hard work in if your using PEDS than your going to get results no matter what your doing.
[/quote]

I cant speak for Flipcollar but Paul Carter made it clear that PED’s help, but they don’t perform the lifts for you. on PED’s you might be able to have a lift gain of 15% over a given cycle, when a natty lifter might only gain 10-12%. There is usually a difference, but it is rarely as dramatic as people think. All of the enhanced lifters in my gym work their asses. They want their goals, PEDs are tools to get them there, but achieving those goals isn’t automatic because of a needle. [/quote]

Look at Ronnie Colman then look at a natty that’s all I’m going to say as a picture paints a thousand words lol I think its one of those lets agree to disagree moments my friend.

23

I feel like, at some point, the discussion shifted from “natural trainees have to train differently than trainees on steroids” to “natural trainees will get less results than trainees on steroids”.

Very few people are going to refute the latter, so if this is your point, you are correct. I feel that most people in this thread were refuting the former.

24

I think both are linked but perhaps a better way of wording it would be that natural trainees don’t recover as quickly as someone using steroids which can have a big effect when it comes to strength gains which again initially lead me to believe that some programs would suit a natural trainee if they were adjusted, however after some of the comments I maybe completely wrong.

Another point is that often when you read an article it claims that x program will add x amount to your bench etc however it fails to mention that if your not taking anabolic supplements that you won’t add anything like x amount of weight to your lifts.

25

Steroids are just one piece of the equation, someone who is natural and has a high work capacity and ability to recover could potentially handle more than another lifter who uses steroids. Stop focusing on what other people are doing and focus on yourself. Almost any program can be adjusted based on your own needs.

Or you can join an aerobics class…

26

[quote]tredaway wrote:
I think both are linked but perhaps a better way of wording it would be that natural trainees don’t recover as quickly as someone using steroids which can have a big effect when it comes to strength gains which again initially lead me to believe that some programs would suit a natural trainee if they were adjusted, however after some of the comments I maybe completely wrong.

Another point is that often when you read an article it claims that x program will add x amount to your bench etc however it fails to mention that if your not taking anabolic supplements that you won’t add anything like x amount of weight to your lifts.

[/quote]

Any program that offers to add a certain fixed and finite amount of weight to one of your lifts is a scam. Don’t fall for them. There are way too many variables for anyone to every write a program with a guaranteed outcome, and the people that DO do this just want your money.

As for the recovery issue, again, this is going to boil down to your work capacity. I know natural trainees that could work circles around assisted trainees and vise versa. Hell, check out Alpha’s log and see the insane amount of work that he can put away every day and still bounce back as a natural trainee.

You’ll need to adjust programs based on your ability to recover irrespective of if you are or are not using drugs. A 30 year couch potato who decides to do a gram of test a week is still going to not recover as quickly as a 25 year old that has been wrestling since they were 5 and lifting weights since they were 11.

27

[quote]tredaway wrote:
Look at Ronnie Colman then look at a natty that’s all I’m going to say as a picture paints a thousand words lol I think its one of those lets agree to disagree moments my friend.
[/quote]

That isn’t a fair comparison. Find two people with a similar life style, level of motivation, diet, life stresses, etc. and only give one of them steroids if you want to do a better job at isolating the variable.

28

Don’t get hung up on who you think a program has been written for. Unless it specifically says something like ‘only for multiply lifters using steroids’, you should be fine.

As has been mentioned, ANY program will give better results if you use the right PEDs but that doesn’t meant NOT using them means the program won’t work if you follow it and put in the effort.

For what its worth, I don’t use (too expensive, too risky and I’m not strong enough yet) but my training is probably closer to an enhanced lifter in that I have fairly low frequency (two to four days a week usually), reasonably high volume per session. Its worked just fine for me so far.

29

Chris the whole point of the thread was to focus on my own needs and whilst steroids are only part of the equation it’s still a big part of the equation lol

30

[quote]tredaway wrote:
Having been forced into a long lay off due to tennis elbow at the moment I’m just following a very basic linear 5x5 type program ( well work sets is only 3 really )

I’m not looking to change anything until I hit a natural end to the cycle in regards to adding weight each week but just looking a head, I’ve read quite a few excellent articles by Paul Carter who I respect however having read some of his later articles it has become clear that the things he promotes wouldn’t really be the best for someone who trains natural… nothing against those that choose not to you understand, I’m just interested to see how these things can be adjusted so that the natural and in my case older trainee can gain from them.[/quote]
2 things…you said you have read a “Few” of his articles. Obviously you havent looked at some of his actual templates he suggest. Hes pretty damn conservative in regards to volume…intensity and frequency.IMO

One thing I respect hes honest about being “On” unlike some. But…he states that hes pretty much on a TRT amount and its not like he downing 1 gram a week.

31

[quote]tredaway wrote:
Chris the whole point of the thread was to focus on my own needs and whilst steroids are only part of the equation it’s still a big part of the equation lol[/quote]

This is where I’ll agree to disagree. Genetics and steroids can help with progress but the average natty person can still get pretty far if they are dedicated, disciplined and work hard to take advantage of all other factors within their control. It’s not that hard to get to a Class 1 or Master total for a given weight class (assuming they built decent muscle mass for their height) if people are motivated and do what they can to succeed. A lifetime squat PR of 500 lbs at 200 lbs is pretty doable for a person without health problems that is willing to dedicate some time to get there. Getting to a much higher level is where genetics and steroid use would matter a bit more. So if you’re arguing about how difficult it is to get to a 600-700 lb squat at 200 lb, that would seem more reasonable to argue that it’s difficult for an average person to attain.

What kind of strength levels are you thinking of when saying that steroids are necessary?

And if we’re going back on topic, you have to realize that some people can be doing a higher workload to get to a 500 lb squat than a person with a 600 lb squat. Using steroids doesn’t automatically mean a person can handle a higher workload than another person.

32

[quote]tredaway wrote:
Chris the whole point of the thread was to focus on my own needs and whilst steroids are only part of the equation it’s still a big part of the equation lol[/quote]

I disagree. When I am considering the merits of a lifting program I think about whether or not I can fit it into my life and whether or not it seems likely to get me closer to my goals. Whether the person who wrote it uses steroids or not is a non-factor.

If you want to focus on your own needs then why waste any time or thought considering how much of a factor chemical assistance plays into other people’s training methods? It seems to me that you’re looking outward for boogeymen that don’t really exist.

Just do something sensible, bust your ass doing it and keep it up over time. Everything I’ve read from Paul Carter falls into the “sensible” category for me, but I can’t say I’ve actually tried any of his stuff.

Regardless, any given program will either get you closer to your goals, or not. If you’re paying attention along the way you’ll gather first-hand knowledge of how you respond to the method, which will be much more useful than anything you’ll get from strangers on the internet.

Simply stated, I think you’re WAY overthinking this. You’re turning this “big part of the equation” into a ridiculous thought experiment that will only serve to encourage unproductive speculation and discourage productive action.

That said, if you are trying to talk yourself out of trying something, believing that success is not possible without steroids is probably a good first step.

That’s my $0.02. Good luck!

33

Thanks everyone for your input, somehow this thread has gone a little off track but whilst I disagree regards the success people can gain whilst using steroids I will do as suggested and not just dismiss programs without trying them out myself first.

If I’ve come across a bit negative that really isn’t the case as I’m really happy to be back training again after being forced to take a lay off and overall I was very happy with the progress I made last time so hopefully i’ll get back to where I was before and maybe even surpass it.

Once more for the record I really enjoy Paul Carters articles and I agree it is refreshing that he’s totally honest regards his training I have a lot of respect for the man.

I did read his templates but thought maybe the stuff he promoted was more suitable for enhanced lifters however after reading all the comments I’ve probably been a bit hasty with my assumptions.

34

I don’t know much about training geared or assisted, but if you look at a bunch of PL routines, you’ll see some similarities.

-The power lifts are in there. You need to work on the skill of powerlifting.
-You have to build up your lats and upper back.
-You should work your tris and hamstrings with lifts that are “pretty heavy.”
-Hit everything else with “smaller” moves to keep yourself healthy.

Now I’m not the boss of powerlifting, but I would want these points addressed in my PL routine. I would be skeptical of any program that totally ignored any of these ideas, or totally focused on any 1 of these ideas.

There are also some “special methods” you’ll sometimes see power lifters use.
-Extended ROM. Deficit deadlifts, or Olympic Pause Squats, or Cambered Bar/Dumbbell Bench Press to build power “off the chest” or “out of the hole.”

-Speed/CAT. Moving lighter weights with maximal acceleration to teach you to “blast through” sticking points.

-Overloads. Partial lifts, adding chains or reverse bands, or using the Sling Shot, heavy squat walkouts, etc. Basically you find a way to handle heavier weights than you actually lift to get accustomed to them.

Now, nobody absolutely NEEDS to use these special techniques in their lifting. But if you do, they should be in addition to the basics, not INSTEAD of the basics. Again, I would be skeptical of any routine that used “special methods” as the primary focus or basis of the routine.

An example of a routine for equipped, geared lifters would be the “Metal Militia” style of Sebastian Burns. Day 1 is heavy wide-grip benches. Day 2 is heavy, heavy board presses wearing a bench shirt. This style of programming just looks “off.” It’s all “special” work and no basics. It doesn’t seem “sustainable.” Burns went from a 500 bench to a 725 bench in 1 year training this way. If this style of lifting “worked” long term EVERYONE would be doing it, instead of asking “Sebastian who?”

35

tredaway, it looks like you are on the right track with your own training. You have you basic template, which includes your “important” lifts. After you became accustomed to that work, you added some rear delt raises and some shrugs(and grip?). This extra stuff should help your routine, not cut into your main lifts. Soon, you’ll be ready to add some tricep pushdowns and easy ab work. In a month or 2 you’ll be ready for some chest supported rows and hamstring curls as well.

Eventually, you’ll be doing some much “stuff” that your workouts don’t flow smooth anymore. Then you cut some stuff out, and move it to an extra session at the end of the week. Again, this extra stuff shouldn’t take away from your main program. It should be like a bonus. After awhile, the extra stuff will get more and more serious until yo have added another “training day” to your week.

At this point, you evaluate and see if you need to adjust your split, maybe going from 3 times per week full body to 4 times per week upper/lower, or getting on that Paul Carter routine.

36

In this article Dave Tate talks about “warm-ups” and “conditioning” and using them to systematically increase the amount of work you can handle.

You should also check out “Extra Workouts” and “Extra Workouts 2” by Louie Simmons.

They talk about using short, targeted “extra” workouts to build up your work capacity without wearing you down.

37

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]tredaway wrote:
Look at Ronnie Colman then look at a natty that’s all I’m going to say as a picture paints a thousand words lol I think its one of those lets agree to disagree moments my friend.
[/quote]

That isn’t a fair comparison. Find two people with a similar life style, level of motivation, diet, life stresses, etc. and only give one of them steroids if you want to do a better job at isolating the variable.[/quote]

Ok look at Dorian Yates one of my all time favourite bodybuilders if you look at him when he took steroids and look at him now there is a big difference I could give other examples but this thread isn’t really about that.

@ FlatsFarmer thanks for the advise and links as I’ve said I am being converted that certain programs could well be worthwhile regardless of if your drug free or not however the results would be greatly reduced.

38

Definitely explore Sheiko’s programs. Explore all of the “ins and outs” of the program. Many people will run one or two cycles of it and give up. I have been using it consistently since I started training raw. It is geared specifically toward powerlifting. If being the best powerlifter (genetically speaking) is your goal, study and learn Sheiko’s methods and adjust your SPP movements specifically toward your training/goals.

Floor press is something that I must consistently adjust within the programs that I modify/use of his and have done so with very good success. The meet I did most recently, I had gotten away from these protocols and had a very sub-par meet. There are certain supplemental movements that you must put in specifically based upon biomechanics and your own individual leverages. However, the main movements and percentages have been proven time and time again.

39

Nobody’s saying that you can get the same damn results without steroids. The point is that programming doesn’t need to be different for a natty and a steroid user. I got solid results from 5/3/1 before using. I got better results when I added gear into the equation. The program was good in both cases, steroids just allow for faster results when combined with a good program. I don’t understand what’s so confusing here. The program that gave me great results naturally is the same program that’s giving me great results now.

I don’t know why I’m even bothering with this though, you don’t seem to have the capacity or the will to understand this.

40

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Nobody’s saying that you can get the same damn results without steroids. The point is that programming doesn’t need to be different for a natty and a steroid user. I got solid results from 5/3/1 before using. I got better results when I added gear into the equation. The program was good in both cases, steroids just allow for faster results when combined with a good program. I don’t understand what’s so confusing here. The program that gave me great results naturally is the same program that’s giving me great results now.

I don’t know why I’m even bothering with this though, you don’t seem to have the capacity or the will to understand this.[/quote]

Yes.