[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
[quote]BWH wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]BWH wrote:
Question for the experts on PEDs - since I will acknowledge not being one:
If a top natural is on some PEDs, but is still a LOT smaller than the top IFBB pros (at least in terms of lbs and apparent lbm), what do you think accounts for the difference? I assume in both cases very good genetics and work ethic. So would it be more “supplements”? A different regimen? Are there certain things you could presumably use without flunking a test and others that you couldn’t but that would make a huge difference between the one and the other?
I am NOT trying to pick an internet pissing contest, since I assume the reason most people are on this board is to encourage and learn from each other. And I am not interested in continuing an argument with name-calling, etc. I am genuinely curious–so for those of you who are serious and have knowledge on this, can you help me understand?
thanks.
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There are a few things to address here, so I’m going to try to unpack this as best I can.
The first thing you want to know is why one guy can be using PED’s, and another guy with similar genetic gifts/work ethic would be much larger/competing at an IFBB level. There are a few answers to this, but I think the main one is that not all PED’s are created equal, and so much of this conversation has been based on either/or. As in, using or not using, black and white. Test is not the same as Trenbolone, which is not the same as Deca, which is not the same as Insulin, GH, etc. The specific compounds being used matter immensely. Aside from that, dosages. A gram of Test/week will take you to a level well beyond natural, but it will not put anyone on an IFBB stage. Add a gram of Tren to that, and it will put you a little closer. Add in 5IU GH/day, Insulin, etc… you see where I’m going with this.
Your next question is about passing drug tests. This is very dependent on the way a particular federation handles drug tests. There are many ways a drug test can be passed when a federation is willing to look the other way. 1. Pay someone off. Seriously. You hand the urine sample handler enough cash that he turns the other way while you fill the sample container with some clean urine. 2. If the handler cannot be paid off for some reason, use a whizzinator. Basically a prosthetic filled with clean urine. Not a great idea, but it can work. 3. Be clean for the test. Every compound has a different clearance time. Some are very, very fast. Even the slow ones can be used throughout the offseason, when an appreciable amount of muscle can be built. There’s almost nothing that takes more than 60 days to completely leave the body, so a natural bodybuilder could use whatever the fuck he wants for, say, 7 months, come off for 2, and have a 3-month long competition season. That’s a substantial period of time to be using drugs. Obviously this is assuming there is no offseason testing. There are also ways to get around offseason testing (leave the country, or at least say you have).
I think I addressed most of what you were looking for. There’s way more that can be said on the subject, but hopefully this covers most of what needs to be said.[/quote]
Thanks, that’s really helpful. And I take it there is a HUGE difference in impact on body composition/muscle gain between “natural test boosters” which, from what I understand, increase the body’s ability to produce endogenous testosterone, and injecting test itself?
Another question - since there is a lot of skepticism here re natural bodybuilders, are there top guys that you all think ARE natural? If so, what about their physique so indicates?
thanks again![/quote]
I’ve always beleived that Brian whitacre, WNBF champion,is natural.
http://www.brianwhitacre.net/Pictures/Thumbnails/P1.jpg
why do i think this?
Brian doesn’t make any money from bodybuilding, he is a economics professor,with no real sponsors and has almost zero social media presence
his stage weight has been the same (165 give or take) for many years
the improvements he makes from year to year are very subtle.
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I want to start by saying that I have no idea if Brian Whitacre is natural or not, and I’m not even going to look him up to see what he looks like because that’s not really important.
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Most people who use steroids don’t make money. Most bodybuilders don’t make money, steroids or not. There are plenty of IFBB pros who can’t turn their pro status into legitimate income. So I don’t think this is a good argument.
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Same things can be said about social media presence. Only a handful of the top pros really take advantage of social media. And actually, some of the lower tier pros (think Antoine Vaillant) are better with it than top pros. Hell, Marc Lobliner is better on social media than almost any pro out there. In other words, social media presence has no correlation to whether or not someone uses steroids.
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Phil Heath’s stage weight, though substantially higher than 165, has remained consistent for quite a few years. Flex Lewis, (and any other 212 competitor for that matter), weighs in the same every year. Consistency doesn’t correlate to a lack of drug usage.
This Whitacre guy could certainly be natural for all I know. If he’s weighing in at 165 in contest condition, that’s certainly an attainable weight for a natural guy, assuming he’s not like 5’2. I just think it’s 100% impossible to really have a good idea of who’s natural and who’s not, because there are no real clues for a lot of these guys in either direction. I’ve seen plenty of guys that look like absolute garbage (don’t even look like they lift) who have run multiple cycles. I’ve seen monsters who I believe are more likely natural than not. I’m much more likely to say “this guy’s definitely used steroids” than I am to say “this guy is definitely natural”. A steroid user can literally look like anything from non-lifter to Ronnie Coleman, but a natural is limited.
BWH - the difference between Test Boosters (tribulus, DAA, etc) and steroid injections is simply how much T levels are effected (and the fact that injections shut down natural production). The most effective Test Boosters can raise T levels by several hundred ng/dl. A typical cycle of Testosterone injections will raise it by at least a couple thousand.
