Double Trouble: Cressey/Robertson Guest Forum

Training Bodybuilding
21

OK,
I injured myself recently and I’m trying to figure out exactly what I did.

Six days ago during the 5 rep day of TBT (Total Body Training) I think I tore, or at least damaged, my anterior delt/upper pec area. At first I thought it may have been from the military presses. I’ve been hitting my delts hard, and the military presses came toward the end of the workout when I was starting to fatigue. I didn’t notice anything during the workout, but later after showering I started to notice pain in my delt area. I took my shirt off and my anterior delt/upper pec area was extensively and darkly bruised.

My delt became stiffer and more painful to contract–as in a biceps pose or placing your arms in the starting position for military presses. Several days after the injury, however, I have noticed that my upper left bicep (same side as other bruising)is also bruised. This makes me wonder if the culprit was not deadlifts. I’m returing to lifting after about a three year lay off and have been training again for several months; however, in this time I’ve only recently been doing deads again. On the day in question I did 315, 315, 295, 295 which may not be all that heavy but for someone just starting to do deads again, I think I may have overdone it–especially considering I’m 43.

The injury caused some minor loss of strength in lifts such as bench (about 20lbs., so I don’t think the injury is severe. Furthermore, six days after the injury it is still very bruised but not very painful–it feels much better.

So what say ye? Should I back off on the weight on my deads, or should I avoid them alltogether for awhile? Do you think deadlifts were even the culprit?

Thanks,

Crowbar

22

What topic did you want references for?

As far as knee strength/stability/injury prevention, I would say to strengthen the glutes, VMO and hamstrings (in relation to the quads). Stretch the hip flexors, adductors and quads. Get massage and/or use the foam roller. This should help keep most of us healthy and training well.

I don’t use a specific ratio for hip ab-ductors vs. ad-ductors. Using a postural analysis and a few tests I can tell if someone has an imbalance.

As far as the TFL being an abductor, it is but more so as a synergist. Typically, the TFL is tight compared to the weakened/inhibited gluteals. They both insert onto the ITB, kind of counteracting each other. What we meant was that the glute max/medius were weak compared to the adductors.

As far as specific muscle imbalances, we really explain all the big ones in NNM. Forward head posture, rounded shoulders, hyper lordotic back and internally rotated femurs/externally rotated feet kind of covers it.

Hope this helps!

Stay strong
MR

23

Crowbar,

This isn’t an issue to be addressed over the internet. There are many muscles that cross over this area, and it wouldn’t be very responsible of EC or I to try and diagnose you without being able to evaluate you in person. Find a good PT or possibly chiro in your area and have them check you out.

Stay strong
MR

24

Eric/Mike,

Thanks in advance for your time and knowledge. Back in early September I was incorporating the Tabata Method into my training routine. I loved the workout but did not like what it has done to my ITB on my left thigh. I have tried the foam roller many times and have had ART on it a few times, tried the standing stretches but to no avail. It hurts all of the time but of course no more so than when doing squats. It has not affected my strength or balance but it does take quite a bit more warming up to get into the groove.
Any suggestions?

p.s. When doing the foam roller I start at the top and work my way to the knee joint. I know to stop at the spots that are painful for 15-30 secs (feels like an eternity) but it is sore the entire way down but especially around the knee so it takes quite a while to do one rep. I try to get 2 or three rolls before I curl up into the fetal position and cry.

25

[quote]the MaxX wrote:

  1. You wouldn’t happen to have any links to references relating to this subject, do you? This is a field I am highly interested in and a good friend of mine is trying to figure out his topic for his doctoral research.
    [/quote]

Same response as Mike; let us know what “this subject” is and we’ll gladly help you out.

[quote]2) Along those lines, are you guys able to write a program for knee strength?

Well, the knee is a joint, so strength might not be the best term. From a stability standpoint, one needs to consider the both the static and dynamic restraints at that joint as well as the subtalar, talocrural, hip, and sacroiliac joints (not to mention the midtarsal, etc. of the feet). Nothing really happens in isolation, so you need to treat prehab with that mindset.

[quote]3) In NNM V you wrote to do standing abductions with the leg because most people have inadequate strength ratios between the adductors and abductors:
a) Is there an appropriate ratio you adhere to for your athletes?[/quote]

Nope, and most of the ratios garnered from physical therapy realms don’t offer much of a functional carryover to real-world performance. I can tell if an athlete has balance by assessing frontal plane stability with single-leg movements.

You are correct, but to add to what Mike said, it’s also a hip flexor and internal rotator of the femur. Essentially, it overpowers the gluteus maximus (a hip extensor and lateral rotator of the femur). I’ve got a much more detailed explanation and makeshift “pictorial;” contact me if you’d like to take a look.

Sounds fine to me. Good thinking.

Well, I think that the most misunderstood component of joint pain is the relationship among various joints. Problems at the midtarsal joint can lead to elbow problems in pitchers, for example. The best PTs know to look at the whole picture when trying to find the cause of the problem; otherwise, they’re just treating the symptoms.

Our pleasure. Best of luck with school; where are you headed?

26

Crowbar,

Without really getting too in-depth, I’d say that you damaged the long head of your biceps. If you’re really pounding on exercises that involve considerable humeral flexion (e.g. military presses, benches, and to some extent curls) and adduction (flyes), and then adding in some elbow flexion work to boot, you’re always at increased risk of injury. However, a lot of people actually rupture the tendon of the long head of the biceps on deadlifts due to an alternate grip; this tendon plays a crucial role in shoulder stability. I’m not saying you ruptured it, but I wouldn’t rule out a tendinous injury of some sort. I’d definitely go and get it checked out by a qualified professional.

Best of luck,

EC

27

Sully’s,

I would incorporate a lot more activation work for your glutes. Supine bridges are a great start, and then look to do more work with kneeling squats and single leg movements. If you can get the hip extensors and lateral rotators of the femur in gear, you’ll be golden. Unfortunately, stretching sometimes isn’t enough.:frowning:

Best of luck,

EC

28

Thanks for the quick reply EC,
I have already stopped Speed benching, and my main back exercise is chest supported horizontal rowing 4sets of 5 or 8 reps.
I’ll try you ideas.
Again thanks,
Old Dax

29

Whenever i do any agility runs or running that involves a change of direction i suffer very tight and sore groin muscles(adductors). Think years of squats and lack of hip flexor stretching have caused the problem, im just so tight around the hips. Do you guys think it is lack of balance between the hip abductors and adductors? Ive started the theraband standing abductor work and stretching the hip flexors along with glute activation work. I am on the right track or is there anything else i can do for this problem? Thanks

30

[quote]marko9 wrote:
Whenever i do any agility runs or running that involves a change of direction i suffer very tight and sore groin muscles(adductors). Think years of squats and lack of hip flexor stretching have caused the problem, im just so tight around the hips. Do you guys think it is lack of balance between the hip abductors and adductors? Ive started the theraband standing abductor work and stretching the hip flexors along with glute activation work. I am on the right track or is there anything else i can do for this problem? Thanks [/quote]

I definitely think that you’re on the right track. Just be patient with it and things will come along. In terms of things to add, I think that some self-myofascial release on your adductors and ITB with the foam roller would be a great idea.

Additionally, one thing that can be very beneficial for an athlete is to watch himself on video and pick up on the little things that lead to movement inefficiencies. It takes some practice, and you need to know what to look for (e.g. positive vs. negative shin angle), but it helps to give an athlete feedback on where he can improve. Over time, these subtle patterns can become ingrained in complex movements.

Keep up the good work!

EC

31

Hey guys-

A frequent theme in your articles is the need for a de-load week (as you just mentioned at the start of your new article). If I am understanding things correctly, this is simply done by reducing total volume by about 40% (reducing sets in each exercise) and by reducing the load by about 10% in each exercise. Is this correct?

Could you give an example of what a de-loading workout would look like using the Wed. workout from NNM part 5 as an example?

Thanks

32

Hey Guys-

A frequent theme in your articles (as mentioned in the current NNM 5) is the need for a de-load week. If I understand correctly, this is done by simply reducing total volume by about 40% and reducing the load by about 10%. Is this correct?

Could you provide an example of what a de-load workout would look like using the Wed. workout from NNM part 5 as an example?

Thanks

33

Eric and/or Mike, my wife had a question about Chiropractors. We keep hearing from some people that Chiros. are quacks. Some say they are life savers. I worry when they have me relax and then crack my neck! It just doesn’t seem safe to me. My wife’s question is, are Chiros. good for short periods of time such as injury rehabs? Or, Do you guys think there are benefits to seeing one even when not injured, long-term? Any feedback on this subject would be awsome. Thank You!

34

[quote]craigrasm wrote:
Hey Guys-

A frequent theme in your articles (as mentioned in the current NNM 5) is the need for a de-load week. If I understand correctly, this is done by simply reducing total volume by about 40% and reducing the load by about 10%. Is this correct?[/quote]

We made the volume reduction recommendation, but never the intensity reduction statement. There are a ton of different ways to “back off,” but volume is the one that most people need. You’re far more likely to overtrain on volume than you are on intensity, so most will do best by simply maintaining (or even increasing) intensity while reducing volume (sets x reps) by 40% (or more).

[quote]Could you provide an example of what a de-load workout would look like using the Wed. workout from NNM part 5 as an example?
[/quote]

Sure. Normally, I use an Excel spreadsheet format I developed to calculate all this, but ballparking it isn’t that difficult.

Last “normal” Wednesday session:

A1) Chest Supported Row: 5x4-6

A2) Incline Dumbbell Press: 5x4-6

B) Chest Supported Row: back-off (feeder) set: 1xmax at 75% of A1 working weight

C1) Bent-over Laterals with 10-second iso-hold on last rep: 3x8

C2) Prone Lower Trap Raise with 10-second iso-hold on last rep: 3x12

C3) Dumbbell Cuban Press: 3xmax at 7%

D) Bar Rollout: 5x10

Volume Back-off Week (I modify these based on the needs that still need to be prioritized):

A1) Chest Supported Row: 4x3

A2) Incline Dumbbell Press: 4x3

B) Chest Supported Row: back-off (feeder) set: OMIT

C1) Bent-over Laterals with 10-second iso-hold on last rep: 2x8

C2) Prone Lower Trap Raise with 10-second iso-hold on last rep: 2x12

C3) Dumbbell Cuban Press: 2x10

D) Bar Rollout: 3x10

Again, I just shot from the hip on this one. Normally, I consider a ton of factors - including how I/the client/athlete feels - into this equation. Keep an eye out for a piece on this from me in the future. :wink:

Good question, Craig.

35

[quote]Sancho wrote:
Eric and/or Mike, my wife had a question about Chiropractors. We keep hearing from some people that Chiros. are quacks. Some say they are life savers. I worry when they have me relax and then crack my neck! It just doesn’t seem safe to me. My wife’s question is, are Chiros. good for short periods of time such as injury rehabs? Or, Do you guys think there are benefits to seeing one even when not injured, long-term? Any feedback on this subject would be awsome. Thank You![/quote]

Some are fantastic, some are quacks. Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to visit a chiro for yourself. Be sure to ask lots of questions; find out if they know their asses from their elbows when it comes to training active, weight-training populations. I don’t see anything wrong with seeing a chiro monthly to get adjusted, especially if you can find one who does ART as well; that’s the ideal scenario.

36

[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:

We made the volume reduction recommendation, but never the intensity reduction statement. There are a ton of different ways to “back off,” but volume is the one that most people need. You’re far more likely to overtrain on volume than you are on intensity, so most will do best by simply maintaining (or even increasing) intensity while reducing volume (sets x reps) by 40% (or more).

[/quote]

Damn EC, beat me to the punch! It does sound like you’ve written something about this…guess the Nation will just have to wait and see!

I agree w/ EC, and I really can’t stress enough about really listening to your body/the athlete to make these decisions. Just because a certain weight feels great one day doesn’t mean it will on another day. This is the difference between the internal and external load.

I typically look at unload weeks in 3 ways: volume-based (used most frequently), intensity based, and both volume/intensity based (used least frequently). Which one you will use will depend on a lot of factors, but this should help you get started.

Stay strong
MR

37

[quote]Sancho wrote:
Eric and/or Mike, my wife had a question about Chiropractors. We keep hearing from some people that Chiros. are quacks. Some say they are life savers. I worry when they have me relax and then crack my neck! It just doesn’t seem safe to me. My wife’s question is, are Chiros. good for short periods of time such as injury rehabs? Or, Do you guys think there are benefits to seeing one even when not injured, long-term? Any feedback on this subject would be awsome. Thank You![/quote]

Sancho,

Since I work with/for two amazing chiros, I feel pretty confident in telling you that it all depends on the practitioner. Just like I’m the first person to tell you that most personal trainers suck, that doesn’t mean ALL of them do. As EC stated, you have to meet with the person and make sure they are knowledgeable and in-tune with your needs/goals.

Here are just a few questions I would ask them:

  • Do they take pre/post x-rays to determine progress? I don’t want someone just randomly adjusting me all over the place with no goal in mind.
  • Do they perform soft-tissue work? Adjustments are great, but the soft-tissue work is what holds the spine in place, and if they aren’t working on that, chances are the adjustment won’t hold nearly as well. You can check out the ART website (www.activerelease.com) to see if there are any practitioners in your area.
  • Make sure they know about your goals as a strength athlete. Unfortunately, there are still chiros telling people not to squat, deadlift, etc. Some, on the flip side, are very good powerlifters. Go figure!

Since it’s available I like to get adjusted at least once per week, typically the day before I squat. Sometimes, if you’re spine and surrouding soft-tissues are a real mess, you might have to go multiple times per week to correct the situation, and then move on to a maintenance type phase. Hope this helps!

Stay strong
MR

38

[quote]sully’s wrote:
Eric/Mike,

Thanks in advance for your time and knowledge. Back in early September I was incorporating the Tabata Method into my training routine. I loved the workout but did not like what it has done to my ITB on my left thigh. I have tried the foam roller many times and have had ART on it a few times, tried the standing stretches but to no avail. It hurts all of the time but of course no more so than when doing squats. It has not affected my strength or balance but it does take quite a bit more warming up to get into the groove.
Any suggestions?

p.s. When doing the foam roller I start at the top and work my way to the knee joint. I know to stop at the spots that are painful for 15-30 secs (feels like an eternity) but it is sore the entire way down but especially around the knee so it takes quite a while to do one rep. I try to get 2 or three rolls before I curl up into the fetal position and cry.[/quote]

Sully’s,

Have you had any deep tissue massage done? The foam roller is great, but it’s a crude method when compared to getting massage done by a skilled practitioner. If you have the time and money, I would find someone who works with/on athletes and get them to hook you up.

I’ve had a tight ITB before and NOTHING would loosen it up until I started get more massage work done. After they get the bal rolling, you can maintain that progress and expand upon it with the foam roller, stretching and proper activation work.

Stay strong
MR

39

Long time no hear big Mike and EC. I dig this little forum you all got going, but you could be getting major paid for this advice. ya know, game should be sold, not told? just joking forum heads, it is nice that people who are this tuned in are generous with such advice. It is how we all got where we are. I was hoping to chime in with some advice, but you two show offs answered everything perfect…kind of like Frank did while debating James Carvill in ‘Old School’ maybe I can get in on some of this sweet action later. Great work Fellas. oh yeah, pulled 530lbs raw (just belt) last week. merry fuckin christmas for me. Bench still sucks big balls though! later brothers in iron.

40

[quote]Heretic165 wrote:
Long time no hear big Mike and EC. I dig this little forum you all got going, but you could be getting major paid for this advice. ya know, game should be sold, not told? just joking forum heads, it is nice that people who are this tuned in are generous with such advice. It is how we all got where we are. I was hoping to chime in with some advice, but you two show offs answered everything perfect…kind of like Frank did while debating James Carvill in ‘Old School’ maybe I can get in on some of this sweet action later. Great work Fellas. oh yeah, pulled 530lbs raw (just belt) last week. merry fuckin christmas for me. Bench still sucks big balls though! later brothers in iron. [/quote]

Thanks for the kind words bro…good to hear from ya! 530 w/ a belt is a studly pull, but EC’s got ya by 10#'s right now. Now that I’m healthy and ready to rock it’s on between the 3 of us…the Quest for 6 bills!

Stay strong
MR