Dos Santos Carwin

Training
41

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
James Toney is an out-of-shape, business savvy boxer.[/quote]

I hope you have not slipped into the land of the delusional and are telling me that a boxer can beat an mma fighter in the octagon with mma rules. That is no more likely to happen than an mma fighter beating a boxer in the boxing ring with boxing rules. So let’s not get silly.

[quote]Carwin wins with sheer power. Which is sometimes too little against a more technical guy who can withstand the initial bullying.
Just like Roy Nelson will brutalize Mir, who has just too little of both (standup and power, I mean), Santos will throw crisp combinations that will blow the steam out of Carwin.[/quote]

That could absolutely happen. But on the other hand there are other scenario’s that could happen as well. 1. Carwin could tag Dos Santo’s early, as he has done to every other fighter he faced, even Lesnar who was lucky to get out of the first round. 2. Carwin could decide to fight a smart fight and take Dos Santos to the ground where he will gnp him.

So, I guess we’ll see.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
He took the battle to him as Lesnar found himself being relentlessly attacked by takedown AND punches. The GnP and control was just the icing.
That’s what a champion can do.[/quote]

He did do that at one point. But if you rewatch the fight you’ll see Lesnar try to bully Velasquez in the first couple of minutes of the fight. Lesnar came out like a bull. But found that he was unable to get any where as Velasquez nullified Lesnar’s wrestling ability with some very sweet defense. Hence, great wrestling combined with good striking won the day.

Once again, you don’t have that venom toward those who kept responding to my arguments. And that is because you agreed with them. It takes two to debate. TWO. And you’ve admitted that you stand on the other side of both arguments. That makes you saying that I carry on arguments self-serving as you happen to disagree with me.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
With that said what sort of “Internet bet” would you like to make?

Hmmm, just a virtual bet, I guess? Winner has +1 T-Honour?
[/quote]

Sure, why not?

42

Go go JDS although i like Shane “Smoker’s breath” Carwin

in fact i think i’m cheering for no one, i want a war.

43

About Maia - Munoz on the same card. How many of you see Maia winning this one? In the matter of fact, I find this incredibly shitty matchup for the BJJ ace Maia. Munoz is one strong fuck and he can wrestle, how well, I’ll leave that for you guys to decide cause my personal experience in the ground game is close to zero, but judging from their fights I’d say Munoz is definitely the better wrestler than Maia.

His standup is wild and leaves him exposed a whole lot of times, but the man has got some serious knockout power in those haymakers and he has some serious strikers as his training partners. Maia’s best weapon here obviously is his BJJ, but can he get Munoz down? Maia’s striking isn’t that crisp, and as far as I can recall I believe it is mostly based on the same kind of hit and run fighting guys like Bisping and some of Jacksons guys like to do.

His chin isn’t going to hold if Munoz catches him, Nate knocked him out and even though that was a serious shot, I can easily see Maia getting tagged by Munoz in a similar fashion. Considering that earlier in his carrier Maia was submitting guys left and right, not having submitted anyone since 2009 doesn’t really bring up your hopes when you look at this matchup. I don’t think Munoz is going to let Maia control him on the ground in the first or the second, about the third I have no idea, I think I remember Munoz gassing a few times in the past when going in to 3rd, but it’s not going to be easy job submitting him in one round because they’ll both be sweaty and as I said before, even though Maia is dangerous in the ground, he hasn’t been finishing guys with subs lately.

If he is losing on standing up and can’t take Munoz down, he might try pulling guard, but I don’t know how much good is that going to do to him knowing Munoz’s GnP. Anyone else have any different opinions?

44

[quote]Fistiecuffs wrote:
About Maia - Munoz on the same card. How many of you see Maia winning this one? In the matter of fact, I find this incredibly shitty matchup for the BJJ ace Maia. Munoz is one strong fuck and he can wrestle, how well, I’ll leave that for you guys to decide cause my personal experience in the ground game is close to zero, but judging from their fights I’d say Munoz is definitely the better wrestler than Maia.

His standup is wild and leaves him exposed a whole lot of times, but the man has got some serious knockout power in those haymakers and he has some serious strikers as his training partners. Maia’s best weapon here obviously is his BJJ, but can he get Munoz down? Maia’s striking isn’t that crisp, and as far as I can recall I believe it is mostly based on the same kind of hit and run fighting guys like Bisping and some of Jacksons guys like to do.

His chin isn’t going to hold if Munoz catches him, Nate knocked him out and even though that was a serious shot, I can easily see Maia getting tagged by Munoz in a similar fashion. Considering that earlier in his carrier Maia was submitting guys left and right, not having submitted anyone since 2009 doesn’t really bring up your hopes when you look at this matchup. I don’t think Munoz is going to let Maia control him on the ground in the first or the second, about the third I have no idea, I think I remember Munoz gassing a few times in the past when going in to 3rd, but it’s not going to be easy job submitting him in one round because they’ll both be sweaty and as I said before, even though Maia is dangerous in the ground, he hasn’t been finishing guys with subs lately.

If he is losing on standing up and can’t take Munoz down, he might try pulling guard, but I don’t know how much good is that going to do to him knowing Munoz’s GnP. Anyone else have any different opinions?[/quote]

i dunno…while Munoz is a gifted wrestler, Maia is one of the best in BJJ in MMA. Muonz does have some power in his hands, but with Maia being a southpaw, it changes both his takedowns and strikes. Maia has also really improved his boxing, but i don’t expect to see him KO Munoz. i think this could be a weird, confusing decision…

45

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i dunno…while Munoz is a gifted wrestler, Maia is one of the best in BJJ in MMA. Muonz does have some power in his hands, but with Maia being a southpaw, it changes both his takedowns and strikes. Maia has also really improved his boxing, but i don’t expect to see him KO Munoz. i think this could be a weird, confusing decision…[/quote]
Good point about Maia being southpaw. Last time I remember Munoz fighting a southpaw was against Okami, and even though Okami is a pain in the ass for anyone to fight, that fight didn’t play out Munoz’s way at all even though it was only a split decision, I don’t remember if he actually finished one takedown during that whole fight?

46

[quote] ZEB wrote:
I hope you have not slipped into the land of the delusional and are telling me that a boxer can beat an mma fighter in the octagon with mma rules. That is no more likely to happen than an mma fighter beating a boxer in the boxing ring with boxing rules. So let’s not get silly. [/quote]

Well to address what you said here specifically, it is completely irrelevant. Ignoratio elenchi. So I won’t even address it yet. Firstly, you used James Toney, as an example of a striker in a classic striker v.s. grappler scenario. Do you see the problem here? Well it’s blatantly obvious, James Toney had ZERO mma experience at 42 years old, obviously Randy Couture is going to take him down and proceed to GNP or submit him, the latter being the result.

  • The point is using Toney is an atrocious example simply used as a tool to tip the scales in your favor in the argument at hand. Please answer this question: Do you not agree that JDS’ takedown defense/grappling ability far exceeds James Toney’s abilities?

And to address the second point you made, which is irrelevant to the point Schwarzfarer made about Toney… I do not believe it is delusional to believe that an MMA fighter will win a boxing match before a boxer wins in the octagon. Are you serious? Nick Diaz is about to schedule a boxing match and he has a much greater chance of winning than James Toney ever did.

Mixed martial artists seem to have passion and discipline to learn the art of boxing (I.E. Georges St.Pierre, Nick Diaz, BJ Penn, etc.) but when has a boxer ever learned the ground game? (Brazilian jiu-jitsu in case you were confused) or wrestling?

47

Okami’s takedown D is crazy though. I can only remember Sonnen dominating him in that department.

Yeah, you’re right about Maia not having submitted anybody in a while (I’m kinda surprised it’s been that long), but with his proficiency, you can never count it out.

Basically, I see Munoz getting the takedown if he wants it, which I’m sure he does, and the fight becoming about either violent GnP or a spectacular sub. Either way, I’m hoping for a finish.

48

I really hope Demian doesn’t hope to keep standing up, every guy Dorea touches go to dust, not counting Cigano.

49

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
fixed.

One day I’ll might renounce Satan just for you.[/quote]

You’re confused again my friend. This is the Combat Forum. [/quote]

He is probably talking about Dana White ZEB.

50

Demian Maia is going to dominate Munoz. That’s my prediction for a few reasons:

  1. Mark hasn’t looked good against anyone until he lands his haymaker.

  2. Maia isn’t a scrub when it comes to getting the takedown, and is pretty crafty in that regard (the Sonnen fight for example). I think he is willing to pull guard if he needs to, and his game of his back is TRULY world class.

  3. Munoz’s standup has been improving, but let’s face it, it’s around the same level as Maia’s, perhaps a step higher. Either way, it’s not good.

I don’t think Munoz would dream of hanging on the ground with Maia. The man has a black hole of a ground game. He will use his takedown defense to his advantage, but I don’t think he’ll dominate on the feet.

51

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
Good call.

If I was laying money on this fight, betting on Carwin would make me nervous. Thirty-six years old coming off fairly serious surgery back/neck surgery as well as nearly a year without a fight. Plus, he looks old and unhealthy in the recent pics that have been floating around, as well as significantly smaller. Also, has only been out of the first round once, and that didn’t end well.

To the people saying Carwin takes JDS down and pounds him out, I don’t see that happening. I could see his strategy being to bully JDS against the cage and land short shots ala the Mir fight. Standing at range with the quicker, more technical JDS could get him knocked out.

Also, with Carwin’s cardio problems, I don’t see him wanting to get into a grappling match with a younger and healthier opponent. JDS was training for a wrestler as well. Carwin has that scary power, and I think his best chance is to catch JDS on the feet.

I am no Carwin hater either. I think he’s a good guy and very humble. I rooted for him hard in the Brock fight.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Dos Santos, mid-late second round. [/quote]
[/quote]

I tend to agree. Wasn’t there a testing positive for steroid issue somewhere in there? I seem to be remember that announcement about the same time Sonnen tested positive. How aggressive and strong will he be without the drugs? I like JDS in this fight.

52

^I don’t remember that. I do remember the issue being that he was named by a drug seller as having been a customer several years ago, or something along those lines. I think there’s a chance he’s been off for a while based on his physique changes over the last couple of years, though it could just be him taking the game more seriously.

53

[quote]JT10 wrote:
I do not believe it is delusional to believe that an MMA fighter will win a boxing match before a boxer wins in the octagon. Are you serious? Nick Diaz is about to schedule a boxing match and he has a much greater chance of winning than James Toney ever did.[/quote]

That entire striking vs grappling argument was not pushed by me. But using Toney or any other boxer you like, as an example you’ll see that unless they have the other prerequisite skills to step into the octagon they’ll get destroyed. Just as an mma fighter would in a boxing ring under boxing rules.

As for Diaz, I guess we’ll get to see how good he is with his hands only. My guess is that he’ll get tagged quite a lot and at some point during the fight wish that he’d stuck with mma. But like I said we’ll see maybe I’m wrong. But I think he’s just doing this for the cashola.

First of all boxers don’t have to learn the ground game so they don’t. MMA fighters must learn how to strike or that would be one very glaring weakness, see Matt Hughes and Brock Lesnar for two (by the way a testimony to how powerful wrestling is that the two achieved championship belts with substandard striking).

Two different sports and I think Diaz is about to learn that.

54

Wrestling is the base for mma, wrestlers dominate it all. most champions in history were wrestlers.

55

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Wrestling is the base for mma, wrestlers dominate it all. most champions in history were wrestlers.[/quote]

Really? What evidence are you using to make that statement?

I’m not arguing that wrestling is a great base for MMA, and while there might be more champions who were wrestlers than there were who were say Muay Thai fighters; actually they are the minority of total UFC champions.

56

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Wrestling is the base for mma, wrestlers dominate it all. most champions in history were wrestlers.[/quote]

Really? What evidence are you using to make that statement?

I’m not arguing that wrestling is a great base for MMA, and while there might be more champions who were wrestlers than there were who were say Muay Thai fighters; actually they are the minority of total UFC champions.[/quote]

Matt Hughes, Fedor, Liddell, Hendo, Couture, Ben Askren, Warren, GSP, Sherk, Lesnar, Velasquez, Kid Yamamoto, Coleman, Shamrock, Faber, King Mo.

57

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Wrestling is the base for mma, wrestlers dominate it all. most champions in history were wrestlers.[/quote]

Really? What evidence are you using to make that statement?

I’m not arguing that wrestling is a great base for MMA, and while there might be more champions who were wrestlers than there were who were say Muay Thai fighters; actually they are the minority of total UFC champions.[/quote]

Matt Hughes, Fedor, Liddell, Hendo, Couture, Ben Askren, Warren, GSP, Sherk, Lesnar, Velasquez, Kid Yamamoto, Coleman, Shamrock, Faber, King Mo.[/quote]

GSP’s base is karate. He just happened to adapt to wrestling very well. And not to nitpick, but Fedor’s base is sambo/judo. You forgot Jon Jones (Greco), Kevin Randleman (collegiate champ IIRC, and former UFC champ), Ortiz, Barnett etc. Some people are using UFC and MMA interchangably. Most of the champs in Pride and Dream were not wrestlers because the rule sets didn’t favor the wrestlers. The one thing that bothers me about the influx of all the wrestlers is the increase in lay and pray we have seen in particularly the UFC.

58

I just gave a few examples, Sakuraba was one fenomenal wrestler.

They really should adopt the yellow card system in UFC, but i don’t know why they doesn’t, I guess the hype is so much that even with lay’n pray they are having huge profits, likewise Fighter gets robbed by judges? well, he shouldn’t have left to the judges and now he gets half his purse and a L on his record, thus diminishing his market value.

fucking monopoly.

59

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Wrestling is the base for mma, wrestlers dominate it all. most champions in history were wrestlers.[/quote]

Really? What evidence are you using to make that statement?

I’m not arguing that wrestling is a great base for MMA, and while there might be more champions who were wrestlers than there were who were say Muay Thai fighters; actually they are the minority of total UFC champions.[/quote]

Matt Hughes, Fedor, Liddell, Hendo, Couture, Ben Askren, Warren, GSP, Sherk, Lesnar, Velasquez, Kid Yamamoto, Coleman, Shamrock, Faber, King Mo.[/quote]

Fedor’s base is Sambo/Judo
Liddel wrestled in college, but his base is actually Koei-Kan Karate
GSP’s base is Kyokushin Karate
Shamrock (regardless whether you’re talking about Frank or Ken)'s base is Pankration

Royce Gracie, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Tim Sylvia, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Alistair Overeem, Vitor Belfort, Frank Mir, Rich Franklin, Ricco Rodriguez, Bas Rutten, Andrei Arlovski, Lyoto Machida, Mauricio Shogun Rua, Murilo Bustamante, Carlos Newton, Matt Serra, Jose Aldo, Miguel Torres, Takanori Gomi, Wanderlei Silva, Mirko Cro Cop Filipovic, Kazuo Misaki, Igor Vovchanchyn, Oleg Taktarov, Marco Ruas

60

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Wrestling is the base for mma, wrestlers dominate it all. most champions in history were wrestlers.[/quote]

Really? What evidence are you using to make that statement?

I’m not arguing that wrestling is a great base for MMA, and while there might be more champions who were wrestlers than there were who were say Muay Thai fighters; actually they are the minority of total UFC champions.[/quote]

Matt Hughes, Fedor, Liddell, Hendo, Couture, Ben Askren, Warren, GSP, Sherk, Lesnar, Velasquez, Kid Yamamoto, Coleman, Shamrock, Faber, King Mo.[/quote]

Fedor’s base is Sambo/Judo
Liddel wrestled in college, but his base is actually Koei-Kan Karate
GSP’s base is Kyokushin Karate
Shamrock (regardless whether you’re talking about Frank or Ken)'s base is Pankration

Royce Gracie, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Tim Sylvia, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Alistair Overeem, Vitor Belfort, Frank Mir, Rich Franklin, Ricco Rodriguez, Bas Rutten, Andrei Arlovski, Lyoto Machida, Mauricio Shogun Rua, Murilo Bustamante, Carlos Newton, Matt Serra, Jose Aldo, Miguel Torres, Takanori Gomi, Wanderlei Silva, Mirko Cro Cop Filipovic, Kazuo Misaki, Igor Vovchanchyn, Oleg Taktarov, Marco Ruas
[/quote]

Yeah, but wrestlers had the longer time holding the belt, longer career span being competitive.

I’m not bashing any other martial arts/styles, but especially us(brazilians) need to learn that without wrestling we will get ragdolled every fight.