hey joel, I know you probably think that I’m going on a bit about this, but I came across some interesting stuff the other day while researching some EMG studies. In relation to tone and the neurological factors I found this
Basmajian- the general tone of a muscle is determined by both the passive elasticity or turgor of muscular (and fibrous) tissues and by the active (though not continous) contraction of a muscle in response to the reaction of the nervous system to stimuli.
-Stolov- we can therefore coclude that no alpha motor neurone discharge is present in normal muscle at rest, but may be present during a stretch that is rapid enough to initiate a reflex response.
-Basmajian - if ones hands are off a resting normal muscle (due to refelexes associated with palpataion), it shows no more neuromuscular activity than one with its nerve cut. in fact, it shows less becase the fibres of denervated muscle engage in many fine random contractions invisible throught the skin but detected by electromyography as ‘fibrallation potentials’.
considering this any increase in tone would have to be a result of increased density through the addition of contractile proteins - which I still fell are best gained through reps of 6-10, rather than the nervous system training of reps lower than 6. add to this the fact it is pretty musch near impossible to add lean tissue while dieting and doing large amounts of cardio and it would seem that any resistance program should be geared towards maintenance of lean tissue - and if you stop performing hypertrophy type training while dieting altogether than a detraining issue might arise - which again makes me feel that at least a small percetage of your training time while dieting should be of hypertophy style in nature. I have no probelms with your 5X5 program while dieting- but it is not the be all and end all of getting a hard ripped physique.
I am waiting for some individuals to get back to me about resting tension; if they ever do, I will post the responses.
Also, this is probably the 5th time that I said this: I spoke NOTHING of additional or extra contractile proteins. HYPERTROPHY of the myofibrils (contractile proteins) is mainly found in the 4-7 range. Once again, that's HYPERTROPHY, as in enlargement or growth of.
NO, it is not impossible to gain lean mass on a cutting cycle, that's one of the main reasons for switching to lower reps. As I've stated before, most individuals train in the 8-12 rep range for hypertrophy and lower reps will be quite a shock to their system when coming off a bulking cycle. It is quite possible to add a few pounds of LBM, provided that the individual is not on an extremely severe diet or doing excessive cardio (I don't know why anyone would be doing more than 2-3 sessions a week). That doesn't even take into consideration the fact that you'll make more gains once you go resume hypertrophy training due to another "shock" in training volume.
Even if you refuse to believe that lean mass can be gained during a cutting cycle, then answer this question: Why is it that many top coaches and highly knowledgable individuals (Bill Roberts being on of them) recommend training with >80% of 1RM for retention of gains when coming off a bulking cycle? For intermediate to advanced athletes, this would be no more than 7 reps.
No, 5x5 is not the be all and end all to getting ripped; there are plenty of strength based programs that will allow lifters to accomplish the same thing. However, 5x5 is a good, simple choice. There are so many benefits to strength-training on a cutting cycle...save the hypertrophy stuff when you really want to pack on some LBM; the added strength you'll get during your cutting cycle is one more more reason why you'll make greater gains come bulking time (Does it seem like I am repeating myself?)
Can anyone tell me the progression on 5x5?
Not all five sets are done at the same weight, are they? Do you increase weight until you only can do five reps? Or do you increase for three sets then fight down for two sets?
One way to do it would be to start with your 5RM. Due to nueromuscular fatigue, it is not likely that you will be able to do all 5 sets with 5 reps…when you hit set 4 or 5 you may only get 3-4 reps. Once you can do all 5 sets of 5, then you add 5-10 lbs and start over.
OK, the 5x5 while cutting is something I have suspected for a long time. My question is for those that accept it, not to re argue what is being discussed. Should a person who is at a higher BF% primarily use a meltdown/german body comp/any and all derivatives for an extended time, would they not benefit from getting the hell off it for a while just to break the monotony? Here is my guess, doing cycles of both is what is suggested, and the current bodyfat level will determine what length of time is spent on meltdownish type of training. For both, wouldn’t a cycle off be effective? For the higher fat people, driving up the strength levels should carry over into the loads that can be used in a future meltdown cycle, and for lean people, melting down for a cycle could be the kick in the ass that is needed to get over a plateau. Thoughts please
Here is what Pavel T had to say about resting tension, along with another source of information should anyone actually care to read up on it:
Com. Joel, tone has been defined as ‘background state of relative stiffness in a muscle. Clinically typically tested by assessing the resistance of the muscle to stretch. Neural and non-neural factors contribute to tone.” (Leonard, 1998)
The variables affecting the tone are:
1) excitability of the motoneurons supplying the muscle (plenty of research documenting that training and learning sensitizes or desensitizes alpha and gamma motoneurons)
2) intrinsic stiffness (born with it)
‘The Neuroscience of Human Movement’ by Charles Leonard will clarify the above.
Joel, I have been awaiting Pavel’s response to you on dragondoor. You may have seen my post to him which preceded your first enquiry. Pavel’s reply was very ambiguous and I am not certain that his latest effort is definitive either. I think that you mentioned on the Tabata thread that you were seeking some clarification from your college profs. Are they not a more reliable source of information to approach in this case?
For the avoidance of doubt I am not seeking to defend any particular position. Your view is contrary to that which I understood to be the case from seemingly informed sources but if the evidence supports you then I am quite happy to accept the position. I have no special knowledge about this topic.
Now I know how that dude in the movie Scanners must have felt before his head exploded, this is alot of outstanding info to absorb especialy for a newbie. Under the 5x5 program are the warm up sets counted or is this just the work sets? I seem to have a coordination problem with the dumbell clean and press can I substitute hang cleans with olympic bar instead? Please forgive my ignorance.
Joel while I respect yours and Pavels opinion I feel you are misinterpreting the information you presented (I am not disputing the information, in fact if you loook at my earlier post the Stolov/Basmajian quotes said roughly the same thing).
The inclusion of neurological factors in tone is a therapists nomenclature, due to it being a sign of neurological dysfunction if a tension response does not occur to palpatation, due to the stretch reflex of the muscle spindles. This is what the gamma fibres do - they are efferent motor neurones for the intrafusal fibres, which provide tension on the equatorial region of the muscle spindles. upon palpatation and stimulus of the intrafusal fibres the afferent fibres of the muscle spindle will activate the extrafusal fibres and provide tension with in a muscle( Schmidt and Lee 1999), yet this only occurs when there is a stimulus - not during rest (which I said earlier by when quoting the EMG work by stolov etc). In fact Foss and keteyian (2000) state that any muscle that exhibits any tone that is higher than normal is termed spastic- Which I hope you are not infering that higher load weight training will cause spasticity of the muscles.
Again I agree with you that training can sensitize motor neurones, which is usually due to disinhibition of the repolarising affect of the antagonist, which will mean that less graded potentials are needed to depolarise to the point of causing an action potential and contraction will occur quicker. But if there is no graded/action potentals at rest (which was shown earlier by stolov/basmajian) then a stimulus will still not occur meaning at rest there will not be any increase in tension.
Again I still feel that constant contraction of fibres would lead to high levels of calcium ions which would activate protease and lead to constant states of catabolism.
I would agree that any increased “hardness” at rest is due to increased muscle density (myogenic tone), and the nuerological adaptations associated with heavy training will increase nuerogenic tone when movements or contractions occur.
One thing to note is that most individuals are very rarely ever in a 100% relaxed state. Everyday, simplistic movements (such as the raising of ones arm, walking, pointing, etc.) will bring out the increased nuerogenic tone associated with heavy training. Also, no one ever analyzes their "hardness" at rest. The coupled effect of increased myogenic and nuerogenic tone will most certainly yield a much harder look when even the slightest of movements occurs, incredibly harder while flexing. This is why I believe Arnold lost his first Olympia, and then never lost after that. Once he incorporated heavy training into his pre-contest regimen, his stage appearance was "hard as hell;" something that could never have been accomplished through higher volume training. Agreed?
The debate has been real guys, keep up the nice work. I'll have to give the resting nuerogenic tone to you guys, however, the only way bodybuilders are going to look dense and ripped on stage, in front of the mirror, naked with their girlfriends, etc. is through heavy training. (besides genetics of course). Keep it real, and thanks for the awesome info.
My opinion from experience is that the 5x5 protocol works best in preserving muscle. When combined with cardio i notice that my muscle is a lot harder indeed! Anyways here
s a question on the 5x5. I’ve been doing it for a while treating it as a 7 day routine. Monday: Chest back, Tuesday: Quad dominant and Biceps, Wednesday: Rest, Thursday: Shoulders and Triceps and Friday: Hip dominant… Sat, sun = REST. Now should I continue treating it this way or is it similar to the 1-6 principle where you train for 5 days and then repeat?
I just wanted to thank you again for the EMG studies that you presented on resting tension; I have to agree with you, it’s not possible. Increased nuerogenic tone will be examplified on when movement occurs; I plan to use this data in the 5x5 article that I am composing now.
Also, I have also found some new data that shows that both hypertrophy of and additional contractile proteins are formed through heavy training; so we were both right on that one
