I find I can only get about 5 reps with my normal 8 rep max if I release and start over. You will also get a more accurate guess of your 1 rep max if you don’t bounce.
[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
I think that is a great idea. However, I would rather use bands or chains (though not rack pulls) to balance out my strength curve.
Konstantinovs’ weak point is definitely at lockout since his weights fly off the floor, and he pulls touch and go reps all the time, even from the top position start. It makes sense that he would train this way so that he can overload is lockout even further. However, like I said, I’d rather use bands, but then I’ve never seen him use bands or chains in any of his training so maybe they aren’t as popular with the training methods used over there.[/quote]
I haven’t use bands much in training, but I did a 12 week cycle a while back where I would do rack pulls one week and DL with Chains the following. Each week I did rack pulls I would keep the weight the same, but would lower the height of the rack pulls by one setting.
For the DL with chains I started with 405 and did singles with 1 chain, 2, 3, 4 and 5 chains, 2 weeks later I did it with 455, and then 2 weeks later with 495 (after week 6 I dropped the weight back down and repeated the cycle). What I found was that as I got to 4 or 5 chains, the chains were really throwing me out of the normal groove. 3 and under were fine, but the 4th and 5th just changed the movement too much for my liking. So I would be careful with too much chain weight.
…I absolutely do not see the point of using the touch and go method. One of the beauties of deadlifting is its lack of dependence with the stretch reflex that ALOT of powerlifters are taking advantage of with the squat and the bench press. What the hell happened to “raw strength”? Do you really want to give yourself a super fast eccentric loading before jumping? punching? tackling? etc?
[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
Modi wrote:
Now, I’ve never had a problem off the floor, it’s always been at lockout, so this may be more viable for my scenario. But if you are week off the floor, why not try the same tactic from a deficit?
Only just now saw this part, after my previous response…
I think that is a great idea. However, I would rather use bands or chains (though not rack pulls) to balance out my strength curve.
Konstantinovs’ weak point is definitely at lockout since his weights fly off the floor, and he pulls touch and go reps all the time, even from the top position start. It makes sense that he would train this way so that he can overload is lockout even further. However, like I said, I’d rather use bands, but then I’ve never seen him use bands or chains in any of his training so maybe they aren’t as popular with the training methods used over there.[/quote]
I just want to say i fancy myself as a decently knowledageable powerlifter. I just read all yor responses to Modi, who i know is a very knowledgable powerlifter and i just need to say this. Go into your room, pack your shit, come live in my closet and be my training partner. Tahank you
BTW…your post concerning form to competitions, i agree. I feel my form idffer on each consecutive rep as oppose to my dead stop. I played with it like yo said with Modi, it actually jacked up my grip nicely, but a little too much back strain to have when im squatting heavy too. Thanks dudes your brainstorming kicked ass
Modi,
I found the chains to lead to the same problem. Funny enough, I didn’t have that problem with bands, whereas bands generally control the groove more with other movements. What I did notice with bands, was that if I didn’t pull from the ground with perfect position (as in I was out of position slightly for the lockout), I couldn’t lock it out. The result was that it forced me to pull from the ground perfectly or else there was no way I could lock it out, even only using minis.
Pipes,
I’m usually looking for new gyms or training partners (or closets to live in), but right now I’ve got the perfect training situation set up. Also, I’m picky as to where I live. I’ll only accept the finest linen closets, none of that utility or spear closet shit for me.
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
…I absolutely do not see the point of using the touch and go method. One of the beauties of deadlifting is its lack of dependence with the stretch reflex that ALOT of powerlifters are taking advantage of with the squat and the bench press. What the hell happened to “raw strength”? Do you really want to give yourself a super fast eccentric loading before jumping? punching? tackling? etc?[/quote]
And that’s your prerogative. I believe that the touch and go helps both my lower back strength and my support grip strength. This is purely anecdotal, but it works for me.
My raw strength is just fine and in my case, touch and go helped more than it hurt.
If it helps my deadlift PR go up at the meet, you bet your happy ass.
[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:
I find I can only get about 5 reps with my normal 8 rep max if I release and start over. You will also get a more accurate guess of your 1 rep max if you don’t bounce.[/quote]
To clarify, I am comparing released tension between each rep to “touching” not “bouncing” off the floor. Touching while maintaining proper body positioning to begin the next rep requires good control of the weight and body position as the bar is lowered to the floor. You do not benefit from any rebound action but you do not relax even as the weight gently touches the floor. After only one workout experimenting with releasing tension between reps I found that what would have been a 5-6 rep set with touch and go I only pulled 3 until I thought I was at my limit. I was then able to do 2 touch and go reps when I could not have pulled another if I had released tension.
I always miss DLs at the floor - either just after breaking or without breaking the floor at all. (This is very humbling in competition - go out on the platform after snorting ammonia, walk our fired up, bend down, pull, nothing happens, stand up, sheepishly turn around and walk off.) As several people pointed out this is why I should do full release between reps unless I am just wanting to increase volume and work on hypertrophy.
I can also be a head case on DLs - sometimes unable to break the floor on what I had tripled the last workout. After throwing something or kicking something I can generally come back and get it. I think the full release reps can help train me to overcome this also. Now I need to use a different gym so I don’t get screwed up by the octagonal plates at 24HF. For the record I DL conventional and at age 57 probably won’t change.
Thanks to everyone for your comments.
Theres a lot of point to the touch and go method. Anyone that doesn’t see that shouldn’t be giving advice.
The bench is usually trained touch and go… should we take that out and ONLY train rack presses? Should we only train bottoms up squats?
As for jumping, punching, etc, yes, of course you want to give yourself an eccentric load prior to doing it. Try jumping from a bottom position vs jumping by dipping first. Try throwing a baseball without “winding up”. Try throwing a punch from a dead stop. Ever boxer, pitcher, and jumper I have ever seen uses a “dip” or some kind of eccentric prior to their movement. To neglect this entirely and write it off as useless is naive at best.
EDIT:
Useless exercise: - YouTube
[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
Theres a lot of point to the touch and go method. Anyone that doesn’t see that shouldn’t be giving advice.
The bench is usually trained touch and go… should we take that out and ONLY train rack presses? Should we only train bottoms up squats?
As for jumping, punching, etc, yes, of course you want to give yourself an eccentric load prior to doing it. Try jumping from a bottom position vs jumping by dipping first. Try throwing a baseball without “winding up”. Try throwing a punch from a dead stop. Ever boxer, pitcher, and jumper I have ever seen uses a “dip” or some kind of eccentric prior to their movement. To neglect this entirely and write it off as useless is naive at best.
EDIT:
Useless exercise: - YouTube
The difference between the deadlift and squat and bench is that the there’s an eccentric phase in the latter 2 in competition, but not in the deadlift. So if you REALLY want to train specifically you’d let all your reps deadstop.
Buuuuut once again theory doesn’t work in the real world, and both will have benefits. I’m considering going back to touch and go for my higher rep days because I have a feeling it will force me to hold a better position thru-out the lift which should carryover to a better position on max weights. I could be very wrong tho!!
[quote]threewhitelights wrote:
Modi,
I found the chains to lead to the same problem. Funny enough, I didn’t have that problem with bands, whereas bands generally control the groove more with other movements. What I did notice with bands, was that if I didn’t pull from the ground with perfect position (as in I was out of position slightly for the lockout), I couldn’t lock it out. The result was that it forced me to pull from the ground perfectly or else there was no way I could lock it out, even only using minis.
[/quote]
I think the real problem is that as you get more chains, they come off the ground unevenly and it tends to throw the bar around too much.
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
Please forgive me for everything. I can’t blame you. I have attacked you several times before and that is mighty wrong of me to do. You’re a veteran with your sport and you deserve respect and it’s not right for me to deny you that respect. I wish you could understand that… I don’t care. You deserve respect, so what? I don’t care. People in here are already giving you more respect than you need so… Yeah, sorry for everything.
…It’s just that I don’t care.
…lol.[/quote]
Fuck off.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
The difference between the deadlift and squat and bench is that the there’s an eccentric phase in the latter 2 in competition, but not in the deadlift. So if you REALLY want to train specifically you’d let all your reps deadstop.
Buuuuut once again theory doesn’t work in the real world, and both will have benefits. I’m considering going back to touch and go for my higher rep days because I have a feeling it will force me to hold a better position thru-out the lift which should carryover to a better position on max weights. I could be very wrong tho!!
[/quote]
Well, maybe we’ll both succeed or fail together with the touch and go reps…Let’s hope we succeed.
If touch and go were useless because you never do them in competition, then we could conclude that Front Squats, Zercher Squats, Oly Squats, Paused Squats, Rack Pulls, Deficit Deads, RDL’s, Touch and Go Bench, Incline Bench, Military Press, JM Press, etc. are all useless because you never do them in competition, so they won’t help your ‘Big 3’.
We can all agree on that right?
[quote]Modi wrote:
Hanley wrote:
The difference between the deadlift and squat and bench is that the there’s an eccentric phase in the latter 2 in competition, but not in the deadlift. So if you REALLY want to train specifically you’d let all your reps deadstop.
Buuuuut once again theory doesn’t work in the real world, and both will have benefits. I’m considering going back to touch and go for my higher rep days because I have a feeling it will force me to hold a better position thru-out the lift which should carryover to a better position on max weights. I could be very wrong tho!!
Well, maybe we’ll both succeed or fail together with the touch and go reps…Let’s hope we succeed.
If touch and go were useless because you never do them in competition, then we could conclude that Front Squats, Zercher Squats, Oly Squats, Paused Squats, Rack Pulls, Deficit Deads, RDL’s, Touch and Go Bench, Incline Bench, Military Press, JM Press, etc. are all useless because you never do them in competition, so they won’t help your ‘Big 3’.
We can all agree on that right?[/quote]
…There have been people who have raised their hang cleans, and yet for some weird reason, their full clean wouldn’t go up. I’m not really against rotating exercises. It just that for someone to succeed with this method, you have to know which exercises can give you the desired effect that you want…
And no, Abhadjiev wouldn’t agree with that. I think it is true in one way or another, It’s just that you can’t consider it as a universal truth.
[quote]dbutkus wrote:
What are the pros and cons of performing DL reps touch and go (no bounce, just a gentle touch on the floor) vs. fully returning the weights to the floor and releasing your tension before pulling the subsequent rep? I have typically done the touch and go, primarily because I normally DL at 24HF with their stupid octagonal plates. They make the bar settle ackwardly between reps. Today I did my reps with released tension between reps anyway and it was clearly harder.[/quote]
I’m told those octagonal plates are actually made to keep people from deadlifting in health clubs and making noise. Haha!
I use the stop and reset method because I feel it has a better carry over (for me anyhow) to the 1 rep deadlift in a competition. The touch and go is good training for hypertrophy of course because you can keep the tension on the muscle. I find though that people injure themselves much more often when going touch and go. I have pulled 740lbs at 228lbs bodyweight with just a belt and straps and going stop and reset has gotten me there for sure. I also compete in strongman, am a pro in the 105kg class, and it matters how the dead will be in the competition to how I train it, bounce or stop. Hope it helps.
Adam
I do a full release of weight at the bottom, as this is what is recommended in the book “Starting Strength”
However, as I read how a lot of you are doing touch & go, and doing well with it, I thought of why this may be the case. Then I realized that I do not lower the weight controlled enough to not have it bounce pretty bad off the floor (which it seems a lot of you really avoid). I’m starting to think that if I did touch & go, I would be forced to control the eccentric more & would benefit from that.
For deadlifts I set the weight down to the point where I still feel tension in my hamstrings but not full release and for RDL’s I try and set the weight down as little as possible but still have a pause between reps.
I’ve always pulled from a dead stop, not sure I’ve done a touch and go repetition in my life.
I do my best to replicate contest conditions during every rep of every squat, bench or deadlift I do in the gym, whether its a 3-step walkout or neutral spine on the deadlift, that’s just what has worked for me. I pull mixed grip most times during training (occasionally hook) and rotate my hand placement each rep to help maintain balance (at least in my mind). I have a hard time seeing the legitimacy of touch and go reps as you’re getting assistance through the first half of the movement…if anything I could see this creating or promoting weakness off the floor.
pause all the reps on the floor. you will get stronger. more of an indicator of strength too.
[quote]adamkeep wrote:
dbutkus wrote:
What are the pros and cons of performing DL reps touch and go (no bounce, just a gentle touch on the floor) vs. fully returning the weights to the floor and releasing your tension before pulling the subsequent rep? I have typically done the touch and go, primarily because I normally DL at 24HF with their stupid octagonal plates. They make the bar settle ackwardly between reps. Today I did my reps with released tension between reps anyway and it was clearly harder.
I’m told those octagonal plates are actually made to keep people from deadlifting in health clubs and making noise. Haha!
I use the stop and reset method because I feel it has a better carry over (for me anyhow) to the 1 rep deadlift in a competition. The touch and go is good training for hypertrophy of course because you can keep the tension on the muscle. I find though that people injure themselves much more often when going touch and go. I have pulled 740lbs at 228lbs bodyweight with just a belt and straps and going stop and reset has gotten me there for sure. I also compete in strongman, am a pro in the 105kg class, and it matters how the dead will be in the competition to how I train it, bounce or stop. Hope it helps.
Adam[/quote]
Yeap, that’s exactly why the gyms use those octagonal plates. I’ve tried to release a few times, and I end up having to “chase” the bar and it gets in fucked up position, making me loose my form and my mojo! I really need to find a new gym, but all the ones around me have those stupid plates!!